The problem with Iron Man being Spider-Man's mentor in the MCU

[Scott Taylor]

The problem with the Spider-Man movies (and this is Sony more than Disney) is that the first movie they did with Green Goblin, was a villain who had a personal connection to Peter in the comics and knew his identity. No problem with that, but they made that into a template they repeated with every villain after that. Sure it's alright with Doctor Octopus (defensible to a point), Venom (true to comics), but not with freaking Sandman, not with the Lizard, not with Electro, and not with Vulture, and Mysterio. So they keep shoehorning some personal connection between hero and villain even when it's not true to the character.

Yah I agree. But it goes back to what I was saying about playing things safe. Sony plays things safe, so does Disney. So does Marvel, if you come right down to it. Thats a huge part of why these movies do so well - they would never take a big risk with the formula.

She's primarily judging the film as a Spider-Man piece, though, not a Disney one.

And do Disney teen shows and films typically use retro music?

On a side note, Holland's performance in ONWARD is stellar. The movie is sheer excellence.

Disney films do tend to insert retro stuff. Not music necessarily but themes. For instance, there was a Disney film I saw where the kids went to an alternate universe that was basically a big 1960s beach movie. Kids these days, for some reason having to do with fate and something else, connect with 1980s music and culture. So it didn't surprise me to see the Ramones in the Spider-Man films. Its Tom Holland that makes the movies cool anyhow. He is just adored by teenagers (small sample size, caveats, etc.)

[PCN24454]

Bad guys who just rob banks are good for MOTW-type stuff like tv or video games but bad for movies where you only have limited time and literally can't waste a single second on something that's not important.

While I don't believe that bad guys always have to have a connection to Peter, having a connection to Peter naturally ups the stakes without much tugging from the plot.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Bad guys who just rob banks are good for MOTW-type stuff like tv or video games but bad for movies where you only have limited time and literally can't waste a single second on something that's not important.

While I don't believe that bad guys always have to have a connection to Peter, having a connection to Peter naturally ups the stakes without much tugging from the plot.

Well you have Die Hard, where Hans Gruber poses as a terrorist with political motivations but ultimately turns out to be just in it for the money.

And Gruber is a great villain.

[PCN24454]

Well you have Die Hard, where Hans Gruber poses as a terrorist with political motivations but ultimately turns out to be just in it for the money.

And Gruber is a great villain.

That threatened the MC’s wife and held her and a bunch of other people hostage.

Not to mention that part of the greatness of the movie comes more from McClane’s situation as a single man against an elite band of thugs rather than they villains themselves.

Part of why the “thief” motive is so effective is because of how underwhelming it is. They killed so many and wasted all their times just for money? That kind of pettiness makes Gruber an effective villain but not necessarily a strong one. Though that doesn’t necessarily make his in even breakdown any less satisfying to watch.


Besides, Spider-Man is a superhero. You expect some level of super technology from his stories.

[NC_Yankee]

I am not a fan of Peter in “The Avengers” movies especially being referred to as “The Kid.”’ It is just another revert to High School Peter ( even in the Ditko era, he moved on from High Schoo). it would have been better off if they used Miles.

[ironman2978]

Honestly creating villains that ties in with the hero's motivations or character arc is something that has been consistent in all superhero films, not just Spider-Man films, look at Joker being the person who killed Batman's parents in the 1989 Burton film or killing Rachel Dawes and creating Two Face. or Magneto being consistently used in the X-Men films, and turning William Stryker from a Reverend into the man who gave Wolverine, his adamantium skeleton. Or Obadiah Stane being turned into Howard Stark's business partner/Tony's mentor, etc. It's a 2 and half hour film, which has only so much time to dedicate to Spidey's plot.



As opposed to comics or even video games and tv series which has so much more space to explore more details and elements when it comes to adaptions. I think it was interesting of putting a Stan Lee/Steve Ditko Peter Parker with Ultimate Spidey elements and introducing him in a streamlined version of Civil War, and trying to play with a teenage superhero among the other adults. Even though it was a brief period in the Ditko era, it was something that interested people in Spidey and High School Peter is an era multiple writers kept on coming back to (Untold Tales, Ultimate comics which helped influenced several adaptions, Marvel Age/Marvel Adventures, Sean McKeever Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane series, and the list goes on).

. "The biggest challenge of course was finding a Spider-Man. Our angle on the character was to make him younger because in our favorite comics, he is young. He is not graduating, he is just starting high school. He is young. That’s what makes him interesting as a superhero, particularly in the MCU. It’s what makes him so different than all the other heroes. So we really wanted him to be an amazing counterpoint to the other Avengers, which of course is what he was and why he pops so much when he was introduced in the comics in the early ’60s."

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Honestly creating villains that ties in with the her's motivations or character arc is something that has been consistent in all superhero films, not just Spider-Man films, look at Joker being the person who killed Batman's parents in the 1989 Burton film

A move that was widely considered a low point in the movie and was added in very late (which is obvious since it drops in randomly in the last act).

And in any case
-- Penguin and Catwoman are established as independent free agents in Batman Returns,
-- Hackman's Lex Luthor in Superman 1 wasn't connected to Superman personally.
-- For that matter, go back to Raimi's Spider-Man 1, Norman Osborn and Peter Parker eventually intersect yet, but their paths are entirely separate. With and without Spider-Man, Norman would be Green Goblin, with and without Green Goblin, Peter would be Spider-Man.

or killing Rachel Dawes and creating Two Face.

That's not exactly the same thing. Joker does target people close to Batman, like Barbara Gordon in The Killing Joke...heck the entire killing of Rachel, and then torturing Harvey into evil is based on that. But that's not the same as Joker being tied to Bruce Wayne personally.

It's a 2 and half hour film,

Firstly Homecoming is 133 mns (2hrs and 13mns), and Far From Home is 129mns (2hrs and 9 mns), so it's not 2 and a Half hours long.

Even then that's still on the longish side for movies of this kind.

For instance
1) Star Wars : A New Hope + The Empire Strikes Back -- Both are 121 mns and 124mns respectively.
2) Batman 1989 and Batman Returns -- Both are 126mns each.
3) Spider-Man 1 (2002) and Spider-Man 2 (2004) -- Both are 121mns and 127mns respectively.

For that matter John Hughes' The Breakfast Club (97mns), and Sixteen Candles (93mns), which served as inspirations for these movies.

Oh and Into the Spider-Verse is 117mns long, under 2hrs and it does far more in less time.

So this time excuse is one that the MCU Spidey does not in fact have, nor does it deserve. It's far longer than usual than the first two Star Wars, first two Batman, first two Spider-Man and with far less meat on its bones.

[Agent Z]

Norman did have ties to Peter. Not only was he the father of Peter's best friend but he also created the spider that gave Peter his powers.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Norman did have ties to Peter. Not only was he the father of Peter's best friend but he also created the spider that gave Peter his powers.

Not in Raimi's Spider-Man 1 he didn't.

That's Ultimate Spider-man comic you are thinking of.

In Raimi's movie, the spider was just a random science expo Peter attended that's it.

[Frontier]

That's not exactly the same thing. Joker does target people close to Batman, like Barbara Gordon in The Killing Joke...heck the entire killing of Rachel, and then torturing Harvey into evil is based on that. But that's not the same as Joker being tied to Bruce Wayne personally.

Joker didn't even target Barbara to directly hurt Batman, at least in the sense of her being Batgirl, he did it to try and break Jim Gordon.

[Mistah K88]

I am not a fan of Peter in “The Avengers” movies especially being referred to as “The Kid.”’ It is just another revert to High School Peter ( even in the Ditko era, he moved on from High Schoo). it would have been better off if they used Miles.

I wouldn't say that being in high school is the problem, as there have been takes like Ultimate and the Spectacular animated series that handled the high school kid version of Peter pretty well. I think the problem is how Peter is treated in these movies...However, it can be said that this is really a problem with modern takes on Peter in general as it doesn't seem to be a problem unique to the MCU.

[Frontier]

I wouldn't say that being in high school is the problem, as there have been takes like Ultimate and the Spectacular animated series that handled the high school kid version of Peter pretty well. I think the problem is how Peter is treated in these movies...However, it can be said that this is really a problem with modern takes on Peter in general as it doesn't seem to be a problem unique to the MCU.

I think to some degree they're taking influence from USM where Peter's age was more prevalent in-costume (to where characters were constantly asking how old he was), but at least USM Peter was more autonomous even when Fury would keep bothering him.

[Hybrid]

What's going on here?

[Jman27]

What's going on here?

Seems like every other thread here that mentions mcu and spiderman in it. People have conflicted opinions on how the character should be portrayed outside if comics and for some reason it’s effect on kids? I havent read everything been a hoping in and out fo the forums.

[ironman2978]

I think to some degree they're taking influence from USM where Peter's age was more prevalent in-costume (to where characters were constantly asking how old he was), but at least USM Peter was more autonomous even when Fury would keep bothering him.

Honestly I think that’s why I didn’t mind as much. Tony’s relationship with Spidey as well as The Hero’s treatment of Spidey seem very much like the Ultimate Spidey as well post New Avengers Spidey’s relationship with the heroes with elements of the JMS era of Peter/Tony relationship before Bill Foster’s death/Clone Thor soured it. But I do feel like they should have had more of the smart mouth talking back element that made Ultimate Peter endearing as a character, like Peter making fun of Tony’s age or how it’s obvious Tony isn’t used to the mentor role