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  1. #181
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The problem with the Spider-Man movies (and this is Sony more than Disney) is that the first movie they did with Green Goblin, was a villain who had a personal connection to Peter in the comics and knew his identity. No problem with that, but they made that into a template they repeated with every villain after that. Sure it's alright with Doctor Octopus (defensible to a point), Venom (true to comics), but not with freaking Sandman, not with the Lizard, not with Electro, and not with Vulture, and Mysterio. So they keep shoehorning some personal connection between hero and villain even when it's not true to the character.
    Yah I agree. But it goes back to what I was saying about playing things safe. Sony plays things safe, so does Disney. So does Marvel, if you come right down to it. Thats a huge part of why these movies do so well - they would never take a big risk with the formula.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    She's primarily judging the film as a Spider-Man piece, though, not a Disney one.

    And do Disney teen shows and films typically use retro music?

    On a side note, Holland's performance in ONWARD is stellar. The movie is sheer excellence.
    Disney films do tend to insert retro stuff. Not music necessarily but themes. For instance, there was a Disney film I saw where the kids went to an alternate universe that was basically a big 1960s beach movie. Kids these days, for some reason having to do with fate and something else, connect with 1980s music and culture. So it didn't surprise me to see the Ramones in the Spider-Man films. Its Tom Holland that makes the movies cool anyhow. He is just adored by teenagers (small sample size, caveats, etc.)
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  2. #182
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    Bad guys who just rob banks are good for MOTW-type stuff like tv or video games but bad for movies where you only have limited time and literally can't waste a single second on something that's not important.

    While I don't believe that bad guys always have to have a connection to Peter, having a connection to Peter naturally ups the stakes without much tugging from the plot.

  3. #183
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    Bad guys who just rob banks are good for MOTW-type stuff like tv or video games but bad for movies where you only have limited time and literally can't waste a single second on something that's not important.

    While I don't believe that bad guys always have to have a connection to Peter, having a connection to Peter naturally ups the stakes without much tugging from the plot.
    Well you have Die Hard, where Hans Gruber poses as a terrorist with political motivations but ultimately turns out to be just in it for the money.

    And Gruber is a great villain.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Well you have Die Hard, where Hans Gruber poses as a terrorist with political motivations but ultimately turns out to be just in it for the money.

    And Gruber is a great villain.
    That threatened the MC’s wife and held her and a bunch of other people hostage.

    Not to mention that part of the greatness of the movie comes more from McClane’s situation as a single man against an elite band of thugs rather than they villains themselves.

    Part of why the “thief” motive is so effective is because of how underwhelming it is. They killed so many and wasted all their times just for money? That kind of pettiness makes Gruber an effective villain but not necessarily a strong one. Though that doesn’t necessarily make his in even breakdown any less satisfying to watch.


    Besides, Spider-Man is a superhero. You expect some level of super technology from his stories.

  5. #185
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    I am not a fan of Peter in “The Avengers” movies especially being referred to as “The Kid.”’ It is just another revert to High School Peter ( even in the Ditko era, he moved on from High Schoo). it would have been better off if they used Miles.

  6. #186
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    Honestly creating villains that ties in with the hero's motivations or character arc is something that has been consistent in all superhero films, not just Spider-Man films, look at Joker being the person who killed Batman's parents in the 1989 Burton film or killing Rachel Dawes and creating Two Face. or Magneto being consistently used in the X-Men films, and turning William Stryker from a Reverend into the man who gave Wolverine, his adamantium skeleton. Or Obadiah Stane being turned into Howard Stark's business partner/Tony's mentor, etc. It's a 2 and half hour film, which has only so much time to dedicate to Spidey's plot.



    As opposed to comics or even video games and tv series which has so much more space to explore more details and elements when it comes to adaptions. I think it was interesting of putting a Stan Lee/Steve Ditko Peter Parker with Ultimate Spidey elements and introducing him in a streamlined version of Civil War, and trying to play with a teenage superhero among the other adults. Even though it was a brief period in the Ditko era, it was something that interested people in Spidey and High School Peter is an era multiple writers kept on coming back to (Untold Tales, Ultimate comics which helped influenced several adaptions, Marvel Age/Marvel Adventures, Sean McKeever Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane series, and the list goes on).

    . "The biggest challenge of course was finding a Spider-Man. Our angle on the character was to make him younger because in our favorite comics, he is young. He is not graduating, he is just starting high school. He is young. That’s what makes him interesting as a superhero, particularly in the MCU. It’s what makes him so different than all the other heroes. So we really wanted him to be an amazing counterpoint to the other Avengers, which of course is what he was and why he pops so much when he was introduced in the comics in the early ’60s."

  7. #187
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironman2978 View Post
    Honestly creating villains that ties in with the her's motivations or character arc is something that has been consistent in all superhero films, not just Spider-Man films, look at Joker being the person who killed Batman's parents in the 1989 Burton film
    A move that was widely considered a low point in the movie and was added in very late (which is obvious since it drops in randomly in the last act).

    And in any case
    -- Penguin and Catwoman are established as independent free agents in Batman Returns,
    -- Hackman's Lex Luthor in Superman 1 wasn't connected to Superman personally.
    -- For that matter, go back to Raimi's Spider-Man 1, Norman Osborn and Peter Parker eventually intersect yet, but their paths are entirely separate. With and without Spider-Man, Norman would be Green Goblin, with and without Green Goblin, Peter would be Spider-Man.

    or killing Rachel Dawes and creating Two Face.
    That's not exactly the same thing. Joker does target people close to Batman, like Barbara Gordon in The Killing Joke...heck the entire killing of Rachel, and then torturing Harvey into evil is based on that. But that's not the same as Joker being tied to Bruce Wayne personally.

    It's a 2 and half hour film,
    Firstly Homecoming is 133 mns (2hrs and 13mns), and Far From Home is 129mns (2hrs and 9 mns), so it's not 2 and a Half hours long.

    Even then that's still on the longish side for movies of this kind.

    For instance
    1) Star Wars : A New Hope + The Empire Strikes Back -- Both are 121 mns and 124mns respectively.
    2) Batman 1989 and Batman Returns -- Both are 126mns each.
    3) Spider-Man 1 (2002) and Spider-Man 2 (2004) -- Both are 121mns and 127mns respectively.

    For that matter John Hughes' The Breakfast Club (97mns), and Sixteen Candles (93mns), which served as inspirations for these movies.

    Oh and Into the Spider-Verse is 117mns long, under 2hrs and it does far more in less time.

    So this time excuse is one that the MCU Spidey does not in fact have, nor does it deserve. It's far longer than usual than the first two Star Wars, first two Batman, first two Spider-Man and with far less meat on its bones.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; Today at 10:58 AM.

  8. #188
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    Norman did have ties to Peter. Not only was he the father of Peter's best friend but he also created the spider that gave Peter his powers.

  9. #189
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Norman did have ties to Peter. Not only was he the father of Peter's best friend but he also created the spider that gave Peter his powers.
    Not in Raimi's Spider-Man 1 he didn't.

    That's Ultimate Spider-man comic you are thinking of.

    In Raimi's movie, the spider was just a random science expo Peter attended that's it.

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