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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Captain America View Post
    This one had something that the others did not, it was set in the MCU, and I guess they overacted
    Actually they didn't overact. That's my point.

    Overacting would be Spider-Man appears in every MCU movie after CIVIL WAR. He pops up in the background of Dr. Strange, and Thor Ragnarok while Thor mutters, "Who is that creature?", you have gratuitous cameos and references in Black Panther, and also in Ant-Man and the Wasp. Instead, they basically used Spider-Man to do Iron Man stories without doing a 4th or 5th Iron Man. Peter Parker hardly interacts with any other member of the MCU other than Tony Stark. And even in Infinity War, Dr. Strange sneeringly refers to him, as "your ward" when he meets Spider-Man. These are two Ditko-bros, who have the same hand gesture, and instead of a scene paying silent homage to their creator, we have Spider-Man referred to as an accessory to a palaver who was far and away a footnote in the golden marvel era.

    I wanted the over-reaction.

    And even then, my wife (who knows nothing about comics, and has just a casual knowledge of films) keeps asking what happened with Mary Jane, still thinking that it's the same characters of the Raimi trilogy.
    Sam Raimi's Spider-Man 1 still holds the record for highest US box-office gross, being the only one to gross $400mn domestic (domestic grosses always constitute the majority of any Hollywood movie's profitability). And that movie is built on the Peter-MJ love story so it will continue to be a defining movie...and indeed forever will be, because thanks to the imminent death of movie theaters in the wake of the current crisis, that record will stand unbeaten.

  2. #17
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    Some good points raised. I would like to add that having Iron Man completely dominate his narrative comes at the expense of shared universe aspects that would be to his benefit. The whole Spidey/Strange thing was brought up, and that's an example. Another example is how I mentioned that while Spidey isn't a permanent team member, he's a guy who's good at bouncing off of other heroes in team-ups and guest appearances. We could've seen how he interacts with the other heroes in the Avengers besides Iron Man, but it's really not there apart from a token interaction here and there. It becomes odd when everything ties to Iron Man in Spidey's corner. Admittedly, this happens outside of Spider-Man, such as Ultron being made by him, or the origins of Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch being because of him, or creating the Vision out of JARVIS. It's just really, really noticeable here.

    Bringing me to the next point...

    I get that at the time Spidey was introduced, they didn't have the FF/X-Men film rights, and I think that's a damn shame because some of the best stuff involving Spider-Man's shared universe and crossover aspects involved stuff from these two. Spider-Man's "Fifth Beatle" relationship to the FF and friendship with the Human Torch, his shared bond with the X-Men and mutants as heroic outcasts, being part of the "young superhero trinity" with Human Torch and Iceman, Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends (Iceman and Firestar), being pals with Beast, Wolverine (something I liked in the New Avengers), mentoring Nate Grey, and who could forget one of the best relationships forged by the Ultimate line: Spider-Man and Kitty Pryde. Of course, the fights such as against Juggernaut, against Magneto, Doctor Doom crossing over several times, the crossover with the X-Factor where Spidey was thought a mutant, and so on. There are many great stories to tell and draw from when it comes to the Fantastic Four and the X-Men, and not as much with the Avengers, but sadly the timing meant we couldn't actually see that.

    I know about the rumors that they plan a second trilogy focusing on college. I hope that if they do, they let the Iron Man thing be in the past, and going forward his shared universe aspects relate more to the above, him being close to the FF and the mutant population because some of the best stuff comes from that.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Kid View Post
    I'm not a big fan of it really either but the MCU is pretty much its own continuity. I like a lot of the references it makes to the comics but it really is its own thing with its own history. Spider-Man may be the biggest comic book hero of all time but Tony Stark was the main character of the Infinity Saga in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. At the end of the day, the MCU is the house that Iron Man pretty much built so it makes sense for things to shoot out of him in this particular continuity (Spidey, Ultron, etc..)

    Once I view as another interpretation of a character that I have mixed feelings about, I'm ok with taking and enjoying the parts of it I like. It's not like every other version of Spider-Man is close to Stark. It's just the Holland one. And there's a lot about MCU Spidey I love so I enjoy him even though he's not my favorite version of the character
    Main issue is that the MCU is seen as the be-all-end-all portrayal of the Marvel Universe, more legit than other sources including the comics themselves, and being in the MCU some kind of rite of passage to being recognized as a "real" character. In any other adaptation, such as animation and video games, if you make a wishlist that includes lesser-known heroes (relatively speaking) that weren't featured in the movies, you'll be called "unrealistic" for wanting a "fringe character". A prominent example of this being Marvel vs. Capcom Infinite. Unfortunately, Marvel has done nothing to combat this perception and indeed has even added to it themselves, what with the animated series just being MCU ads, and the aforementioned MvCI being horrible because it's just an MCU plug.

    Now, if we're being perfectly fair, this problem exists in other spaces. The FoX-Men for example focused so much on Wolverine, then Magneto and Xavier, that the numerous other characters in the X-Men lore got shafted. As a result, when making a wishlist for a hypothetical Marvel vs. Capcom 4, I included both Kitty Pryde and Magik on my wishlist, and got crap for choosing "random and obscure X-Men" characters over others, primarily MCU ones even if they would've added little to the game itself. That's also why many are excited for MCU X-Men, mainly that we'll actually see other parts of the mythos and get focus on other characters. Hopefully.

    Likewise, the horrible Fox FF movies are the reason why people have this idea that the FF are as lame as you can get, because that's all they've been exposed to. The concept can not only work, but work very, very well. I mean, The Incredibles was basically FF in spirit, and everyone loves that movie.

    It shouldn't be that way, and it is. As a result, for something that is the be-all-end-all, I feel the characters' portrayal in that universe matters. Spider-Man's portrayal in the MCU is going to take precedence, and that sends a bad message. Spider-Man in the MCU should be perfect opportunity to promote his own lore, not someone else's.

  4. #19
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    The problem here is literally that Tony Stark is the exact opposite of Uncle Ben. Stark is an arrogant and selfish son of a (*censored*) with an ego no one can handle. While Uncle Ben is the father figure that teach you to be part of a world that tends to ignore "regular common" people.

  5. #20

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    so is this "WEB of Spider-Man" based in the 616 world or the MCU world?

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    so is this "WEB of Spider-Man" based in the 616 world or the MCU world?
    Neither. It's based on the upcoming attraction in Disney Parks' Avengers Campus where you get to design and/or upgrade Spider-Man's gear and use it yourself to really feel like Spider-Man.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  7. #22
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    My only real issue was all the Stark Tech that Peter was using. It overshadowed Peter as a genius in his own right.

  8. #23
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    Honestly, it's a little weird that this happened to Spider-Man, when they already had a headlining character they've could've connected to Tony Stark and it wouldn't be out of place:

    Ant-Man

    Scott Lang in the comics was a supporting character to Tony, and the Avengers, and they were pretty good friends. They were close enough that Cassie even thought of him as a surrogate uncle before she became a superhero herself. Hell, in the early issues of Young Avengers, set after Disassembled where Scott died, they both grieved and bonded together over Scott, while Tony tried to convince Cassie not to be a superhero because he doesn't want to deal with the pain of losing her too.


    So, did they just totally miss the potential this could've had for the MCU? They had the perfect connection right there, and it would've made sense. Plus, I think having Tony be a mentor to Scott, while both were grown men, would be better than the surrogate father that had Tony become for Peter. Scott could've been a good foil to Tony, both of them having similarities (tech-based heroes with a checkered past, and a snarky demeanor) but differences for contrast (Tony's rich while Scott is working class, Tony doesn't have kids while Scott looks after his daughter, Tony is a leading figure while Scott is a support). Then in Endgame when Tony and Pepper have Morgan after Scott's apparent demise, they could've had Cassie be a surrogate sister for the girl and looking up to "Uncle Tony". That would set the stage perfectly for Cassie to become a hero of her own as Stature, because she grew up around them.

    Man, this stuff writes itself.

    But do you agree that in the MCU context, having Tony play heavily into Scott's arc would've made a lot more sense than Peter's?
    Last edited by Hybrid; 03-21-2020 at 05:10 AM.

  9. #24
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Haven't we heard some variation of this same argument ever since "Captain America: Civil War"? I mean, the people who agree didn't change their minds, and the people who disagree are still going to disagree. What good does it do to bring this up again? Just to be like "MCU Spidey sucks" or "I wish Sony made the movies again" or even "I hate Tony Stark." Really, what good will this bring?
    The Amazing, Spectacular, Sensational Web-Slinger!

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Haven't we heard some variation of this same argument ever since "Captain America: Civil War"? I mean, the people who agree didn't change their minds, and the people who disagree are still going to disagree. What good does it do to bring this up again? Just to be like "MCU Spidey sucks" or "I wish Sony made the movies again" or even "I hate Tony Stark." Really, what good will this bring?
    To thoroughly explain why it makes no sense and comes at Spidey's own detriment as a character.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    Main issue is that the MCU is seen as the be-all-end-all portrayal of the Marvel Universe, more legit than other sources including the comics themselves, and being in the MCU some kind of rite of passage to being recognized as a "real" character. In any other adaptation, such as animation and video games, if you make a wishlist that includes lesser-known heroes (relatively speaking) that weren't featured in the movies, you'll be called "unrealistic" for wanting a "fringe character". A prominent example of this being Marvel vs. Capcom Infinite. Unfortunately, Marvel has done nothing to combat this perception and indeed has even added to it themselves, what with the animated series just being MCU ads, and the aforementioned MvCI being horrible because it's just an MCU plug.

    Now, if we're being perfectly fair, this problem exists in other spaces. The FoX-Men for example focused so much on Wolverine, then Magneto and Xavier, that the numerous other characters in the X-Men lore got shafted. As a result, when making a wishlist for a hypothetical Marvel vs. Capcom 4, I included both Kitty Pryde and Magik on my wishlist, and got crap for choosing "random and obscure X-Men" characters over others, primarily MCU ones even if they would've added little to the game itself. That's also why many are excited for MCU X-Men, mainly that we'll actually see other parts of the mythos and get focus on other characters. Hopefully.

    Likewise, the horrible Fox FF movies are the reason why people have this idea that the FF are as lame as you can get, because that's all they've been exposed to. The concept can not only work, but work very, very well. I mean, The Incredibles was basically FF in spirit, and everyone loves that movie.

    It shouldn't be that way, and it is. As a result, for something that is the be-all-end-all, I feel the characters' portrayal in that universe matters. Spider-Man's portrayal in the MCU is going to take precedence, and that sends a bad message. Spider-Man in the MCU should be perfect opportunity to promote his own lore, not someone else's.
    I mean it's not really promoting Iron Man's lore lol. Him being a Stark fanboy as a teenager and the 10 min of screentime IM has in Homecoming doesn't change that we're looking at classic Spider-Man villains with supporting characters being either original or revamped versions of comic Spidey versions (Liz, MJ, Flash etc..)
    DC, hurry up and make your own version of Marvel Unlimited!

  12. #27
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    However bothered we may or may not be about kid sidekick Spidey ultimately we cannot do much about it except for writing angry crayon letters to Disney or Marvel Studios.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Kid View Post
    I mean it's not really promoting Iron Man's lore lol. Him being a Stark fanboy as a teenager and the 10 min of screentime IM has in Homecoming doesn't change that we're looking at classic Spider-Man villains with supporting characters being either original or revamped versions of comic Spidey versions (Liz, MJ, Flash etc..)
    MCU Spidey's supporting cast is horrible. Let's look at what we got:
    • Aunt May, looking a lot younger than she should be, but excusable seeing as how Tomei is talented and does the job well.
    • "Ned Leeds", aka Ganke, who is called that because he's Ganke Lee with the name of a classic Spider-Man character. He really should've been completely original, like Phil Coulson, or just call him Ganke, sure he was Miles' friend but transplanting him to Peter would be less radical than taking one character and making him another, completely unrelated one.
    • Flash Thompson, as a Latino nerd. I get the "diversity" reasons and all, but Flash has a distinct appearance in the comics that's hard for me to imagine as anything else, so sorry if it sounds offensive but he should've been white. That and he has a role as Peter's bully turned friend, and eventually became Agent Venom. I can't see that ever happening even if Sony wasn't making Venom movies.
    • Michelle Jones, the reimagined Mary Jane Watson. I honestly don't get what's the point of this character. She's not MJ technically, she's a completely original creation, and it feels half-assed. She's just snide and sarcastic, and contrasts MJ's timeless portrayal. They should've used MJ, but unlike Raimi made her more like the comics: proactive and useful, not a damsel.
    • Betty Brant, who looks more like Gwen Stacy and just has the tag. Wouldn't it make more sense if she, rather than Liz, was Peter's first girlfriend?
    • Happy Hogan, a character who has no business being part of Spider-Man's cast. For one, he's an Iron Man supporting character who has nothing to do with Peter (and he's been dead since 2007), and he's the most prominent adult friend. Oh, and he's dating Aunt May and will become his uncle. Wtf?
    • Nick Fury, this is something I'll admit has a basis due to Ultimate. However, like others, it's mishandled what with Fury thinking so low of Spidey that he sends a Skrull to take his place to deal with him rather than be a personal mentor.
    • J. Jonah Jameson, a crackpot conspiracy theorist who outs Spider-Man for a cameo. I was happy to see J.K. Simmons, but they should've done it better. They should've had him be an enemy of Spidey from afar, but eventually becomes his friend and confidant.


    Also, there's the matter of Vulture and Mysterio. Yeah, they're Spider-Man villains, but in the MCU they're portrayed as not being his villains. Their beef is with Tony Stark, with Vulture out to steal from him, and Mysterio out to tarnish his legacy. Spider-Man is just the guy getting in the way. I keep hearing Kraven the Hunter is the most likely MCU Spider-Man 3 villain, and I wonder "How are they gonna connect him to Stark?". At this rate, if they cover Uncle Ben at all, they'll reveal that the freaking robber who shot him was a former Stark employee.

    It also pales compared to the Spider-Man PS4 cast, which I know I keep referencing, but I feel that's what MCU Spider-Man should've been. The cast draws from classic characters from the days of Lee-Ditko, to later runs, recent additions, and Ultimate.

    For contrast:
    • Aunt May, who is much closer to her comic counterpart, and even better in someways because she's not the cause of OMD.
    • Mary Jane Watson, who is actually MJ and is proactive and useful just like in the comics.
    • Miles Morales, portrayed as being part of the same universe from the start, and forms a brotherly bond with Peter the feels right.
    • Yuri Watanabe, the friend of the force and always a good time with the snark talk.
    • Otto Octavius, the mentor of Peter, in a reimagined, but organic, portrayal that works, making it all the sadder when he becomes Doc Ock.
    • J. Jonah Jameson, runs a podcast now, but otherwise his portrayal is completely on point. In fact the podcast angle makes sense nowadays.


    And the villains are indisputably Spidey's, even with reimagined backstories, they never connect to Stark. This being in a world where other superheroes exist.

    See why people are griping?

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Ultimately this is all for the benefit of Iron Man and at the expense of Spider-Man
    Iron Man started the MCU. He doesnít need Spider-Man.
    It adds value to Iron Man that he is the mentor of Spider-Man but it subtracts value from Spider-Man to be the sidekick of a character who has historically been a mediocre seller and who has very few classic solo stories to his credit. I mean if you compare Iron Man with Captain America and with The Mighty Thor, you will find that the latter two have far more important and vital solo stories each, than Anthony Edward Stark can ever claim to. Heck Doctor Strange, a character who has had a far smaller time as a solo character than Tony has far many great stories than Tony Stark does. Iron Man was always a character with a very mediocre publishing history, and a character of little impact and influence on creators and artists working in the Marvel Universe and wider comics' business.
    All Iím seeing is that you donít like Iron Man and think he taints Spider-Man by association. If we were to go by your logic, Spider-Man shouldnít interact with any Marvel character aside from maybe the X-Men.



    Reality
    -- Peter hangs out all the time with Iron Man and barely exchanges more than a few sentences with any other hero.
    Arenít those heroes unworthy of Spider-Man in your eyes?
    -- Not only does Spider-Man hang out with Tony, Tony's supporting cast merges with Peter.
    Happy dates Aunt May. Thatís it.
    -- Tony's supporting cast has a bigger role and impact than Peter's supporting cast does.
    Now youíre just making things up. Again, the extent of Tonyís supporting cast in the MCU Spider-Man movies is Happy dating Aunt May.
    Did you complain about Black Widow having more of a role in Winter Soldier than Falcon and Sharon Carter who actually are supporting cast members to Steve in the comics? Hell, look at Hulkís supporting cast in the MCU: Only three of them appeared in the movies and only one (General Ross) appeared in more than one film.

    -- Spider-Man is so low that Nick Fury appoints a Skrull-double to look over him, refusing to interact with him personally.
    Nick Fury being a bit of a jackass to a superhero? Must be a day than ends in ďyĒ. I think you have a rose-tinted view of what Spider-Manís in-universe reputation among other characters.

    -- Spider-Man is so tied to "next Tony Stark" that Tom Holland as an actor isn't allowed to stand on his own and carry a movie entirely by himself.
    Far From Home was entirely about how Peter does not and should not be the next Tony. Also, Tony completely absent from Far From Home.

    Worse than that was the toxicity that this has bred among fans who defend this.
    Youíre using the word toxicity wrong. On the other hand, banging on and on about this topic and accusing people who donít agree with you of being classicist is certainly more deserving of that label.

  15. #30
    Mighty Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Agent Z, I think you have the wrong idea about Jack's view of the Marvel Universe outside Spider-Man. He does not hate Marvel's characters as a whole apart from Spider-Man and X-Men like you think he does. I don't know him personally, but I do interact with him a lot here, and this is what I've gathered from it:
    • His favorite supervillain is Doctor Doom, having praised him for being so complex, multifaceted and versatile.
    • He also likes the Fantastic Four as a whole, having praised their dynamics, relationship with others, and considers them better than the Avengers. He said Hickman's Avengers was great for being a stealth FF story.
    • Doctor Strange is another hero he likes, due to his cosmic adventures and unique stance in the MU. That, and he's the "Ditko Bro" with Spidey.
    • I've seen him praise Captain America, due to him being such an upstanding guy and having a great lore of his own.
    • Daredevil is another one, due to his dark stories with noir tones, and connection to Spidey, even lamenting how Kingpin has been used as a Spidey villain in media when he should be DD's foe. He's said that Born Again is one of the best stories ever.
    • The Avengers, he's stated, has had good runs like under Roger Stern. The main appeal, one that I agree with, is that they're at their best as the home for lesser heroes to find their footing, as opposed to being "Marvel's Justice League". That's where a lot of the issues began.
    • He's even praised David Michelinie's defining run on Iron Man, yes really. I remember him saying that was the best he was written.
    • The main issue he's had with the shared universe is when it comes at the cost of one character in favor of another, at the expense of storytelling.

    Now, if Revolutionary_Jack would like to set the record straight, by all means. But what I've seen shows that he's far from someone who hates everything MU besides Spider-Man like you claim he does. It's more that he has issue with the way they handle things.

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