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  1. #211
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Hell, unlike the other maniacs with an irrational grudge against Tony, Toomes isn’t even going after him.
    Toomes is specifically robbing Damage Control sites, and has been doing it successfully for 6 years or so, and in the finale he robs an Avengers supply plane. So I'd say there's definitely a motive to stick it to Tony there.

    And what else was he supposed to do? Leave him in the company and risk endangering his employees?
    Tony could have tried and taken time to mentor the guy, been a little more sensitive to his feelings, you know...like a boss. I mean what a boss actually should do not the song-and-meme. He could have tried to have him work for SHIELD since Nick Fury has more experience working with dodgy assets with personality issues (since y'know Fury did work with and mentor Stark). Sure SHIELD was weakened after Winter Soldier, but Fury was still around right? There was a host of stuff he could have done, didn't do, and should have done. And above all, simply not take credit for an invention that's not his. That's something you shouldn't do to anyone.

    The MCU has repeatedly shamed Tony for his past as an arms dealer or how he has dealt with women he has been involved with and blamed him for casualties in wars he didn’t start.
    But not by Tom Holland's Spider-Man is the point. In his own movies, with villains, and fellow Avengers team-mates, and in the eye of Nick Fury. But to reiterate...ultimately outside my feelings for Tony Stark and so on, that's not the real issue. It's not wrong for MCU Spider-Man to feature Iron Man and so on. That by itself isn't a problem. I just wish they did it better. I personally don't want to see a Spider-Man movie where a capitalist's irresponsibility and negligence creates problems and which ends with Spider-Man still seeing him uncritically as a good guy. I have a problem with a movie passing over in silence the fact that the guy who stole credit for another's invention is seen at the end as some kind of saint.

    If they had used Tony Stark and Iron Man without those problematic elements then I would not have had so many issues.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Toomes is specifically robbing Damage Control sites, and has been doing it successfully for 6 years or so, and in the finale he robs an Avengers supply plane. So I'd say there's definitely a motive to stick it to Tony there.
    My point exactly. If he hates Tony so much, have the balls to go after him directly. Even Wanda, Vanko, Stane and Killian did that much.

    Tony could have tried and taken time to mentor the guy, been a little more sensitive to his feelings, you know...like a boss. I mean what a boss actually should do not the song-and-meme.
    Sensitivity is a two-way street. Tony is under no obligation to mentor a person as entitled as Beck and again, his following actions prove he was a lost cause. Combine this with Tony being dead and I have to question just how much of what Beck is saying about him is true. I'm not quick to trust the word of Mysterio, a guy who already lied about being a superhero from another dimension. Hell, one of the guys he's working with is the scientist from Iron Man 1 who got yelled at by Stane.


    He could have tried to have him work for SHIELD since Nick Fury has more experience working with dodgy assets with personality issues (since y'know Fury did work with and mentor Stark).
    Fury doesn't exactly have a spotless track record when it comes to mentoring people or seeing their flaws. His biggest success in that regard is Black Widow and she helped destroy SHIELD.


    And above all, simply not take credit for an invention that's not his. That's something you shouldn't do to anyone.
    Again, we only saw Beck's side of the argument. This is the character who, in the comics, stole another man's identity so he could make a self-aggrandizing docudrama about his life.

    The only reason to see Tony as the bad guy here is if you believe that he is inherently untrustworthy on count of being a CEO.

  3. #213
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    My point exactly. If he hates Tony so much, have the balls to go after him directly.
    Stealing from him under his nose, all the while Stark was ignorant, is probably more daring as a revenge scheme. Toomes outsmarted Stark, and the latter didn't even know about him.

    Tony is under no obligation to mentor a person as entitled as Beck and again, his following actions prove he was a lost cause.
    As an employer of Beck, as someone who stands to gain from Beck's hard work and intelligence, Tony is under obligation. And again this idea of someone being a "lost cause". Tony Stark was a lost cause until he turned 40, as do many Avengers -- Natasha, Wanda, Pietro, and I guess you can add Scott Lang, former criminal. Tony also knew basically decent people like Maya Hansen who turned bad.

    Someone who knows that much is expected to be more compassionate and not less.

    Combine this with Tony being dead and I have to question just how much of what Beck is saying about him is true.
    Mysterio says this to a room full of former Stark employees and none of them question it. t

    The only reason to see Tony as the bad guy here is if you believe that he is inherently untrustworthy on count of being a CEO.
    'inherently untrustworthy on count of being a CEO' has been voiced by numerous characters in Marvel, good and supporting, to Tony multiple times in the comics. It comes with the territory, and Tony in the comics has owned it so-to-speak.

    In Tom Taylor's Friend Neighborhood Spider-Man, he framed Tony Stark benignly. A friend to Peter, someone who helps out Prowler, and when the latter says he has a criminal record, Tony says (and I paraphrase), "I sold weapons, I'm basically a war criminal". That kind of Tony, a guy who did something wrong, and is more compassionate and less judgmental is someone to respect. The Tony Stark in MCU Spider-Man though doesn't have those qualities.

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Stealing from him under his nose, all the while Stark was ignorant, is probably more daring as a revenge scheme. Toomes outsmarted Stark, and the latter didn't even know about him.
    Or it means that what Toomes was taking was so insignificant that Tony wouldn't notice. Meanwhile, it's the Stark employees that did nothing to Toomes that suffer.

    As an employer of Beck, as someone who stands to gain from Beck's hard work and intelligence, Tony is under obligation.
    No he isn't, that is not what being an employer means. You can and will be fired if are deemed unfit for employment. Tony is not running a day care center. He is not Beck's father.

    And again this idea of someone being a "lost cause". Tony Stark was a lost cause until he turned 40, as do many Avengers -- Natasha, Wanda, Pietro, and I guess you can add Scott Lang, former criminal.
    Natasha and Scott never blamed anyone but themselves for their own screw ups and they have far more sympathetic reasons for their actions than Beck. The Maximoff are in the same boat as Beck as being irrational and misguided in their grudge but the movie doesn't treat them as the villains they are despite them joining a neo-fascist terrorist organization and attacking innocent civilians.

    Tony also knew basically decent people like Maya Hansen who turned bad.
    All the more reason to keep his distance from people like Beck.

    Someone who knows that much is expected to be more compassionate and not less.
    Compassionate, not a stupid and naive doormat.




    Mysterio says this to a room full of former Stark employees and none of them question it.
    A room full of people who hate Tony and think nothing of killing thousands of innocent people just to stick it to a dead man. Hell, one of them was working for Obidiah Stane in the first Iron Man movie.



    'inherently untrustworthy on count of being a CEO' has been voiced by numerous characters in Marvel, good and supporting, to Tony multiple times in the comics. It comes with the territory, and Tony in the comics has owned it so-to-speak.
    Tony Stark shut down Stark Industries' weapons division despite it haven been the company's main source of profit for decades, poured no small amount of money into renewable energy and has sacrificed himself to save the entire planet. What has Beck, a man who lied about being a superhero, who manipulated Spider-Man as part of a plot to kill thousands of people for petty revenge, done that he gets the benefit of the doubt?

    In Tom Taylor's Friend Neighborhood Spider-Man, he framed Tony Stark benignly. A friend to Peter, someone who helps out Prowler, and when the latter says he has a criminal record, Tony says (and I paraphrase), "I sold weapons, I'm basically a war criminal". That kind of Tony, a guy who did something wrong, and is more compassionate and less judgmental is someone to respect.
    Calling Tony a war criminal requires some serious twisting of what the word means. I also wouldn't compare Hobie to Beck as that ignores a great deal about the type of person Beck is.

  5. #215
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    No he isn't, that is not what being an employer means. You can and will be fired if are deemed unfit for employment. Tony is not running a day care center. He is not Beck's father.
    Beck is a scientist and brilliant inventor who created revolutionary technology. I kind of think you do need to treat that kind of employee, the kind that directly develops revolutionary patents and IP, with a little care and consideration. I mean Tony Stark's shenanigans in IM-1, and IM-2 put a strain on Happy, Rhodey, and Pepper. If he wasn't his own boss, he would have been fired too.

    Natasha and Scott never blamed anyone but themselves for their own screw ups and they have far more sympathetic reasons for their actions than Beck.
    Point is both were people with "red on their ledger" and a criminal record. Quentin Beck had neither of these things until Stark stiffed him.

    Tony Stark's actions and his negligence led to honest citizens without criminal records becoming supervillains. That much is inarguable.

    Calling Tony a war criminal requires some serious twisting of what the word means.
    Just to be clear...it's Tony calling himself that self-deprecatingly. Not the story, not other characters, and not me. It's Tony.

    All I am saying is that it's okay for the MCU Spider-Man to be connected to Iron Man. That doesn't have anything to do with the story they tell. I think though that it's more than a little unsatisfying that these movies center around a rich dude's irresponsibility and negligence, and yet it is the same rich dude who is unironically framed as a role model at the same time.

    If they made Tony more like how he was in Tom Taylor's comic, then it would be better I think.

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Beck is a scientist and brilliant inventor who created revolutionary technology.
    Or so he claims.


    Point is both were people with "red on their ledger" and a criminal record. Quentin Beck had neither of these things until Stark stiffed him.
    Beck blaming Tony for his problems doesn't erase his own agency in his actions. If this guy were a real life school shooter no one would be trying to blame his crimes on someone else without being told to shut up.

    Tony Stark's actions and his negligence led to honest citizens without criminal records becoming supervillains. That much is inarguable.
    It's only inarguable if you think that Beck has no control of his own actions.

    You talk about the other decisions Tony could have made but never consider the other options Beck had other than lying about being a superhero and killing thousands of innocent people just to spite a ghost.



    Just to be clear...it's Tony calling himself that self-deprecatingly. Not the story, not other characters, and not me. It's Tony.
    The character is written by someone else putting those words into his mouth. And I have seen plenty of fans refer to Tony as a war criminal. Legally selling weapons, no matter how much you object to it, is not a crime.

    All I am saying is that it's okay for the MCU Spider-Man to be connected to Iron Man. That doesn't have anything to do with the story they tell. I think though that it's more than a little unsatisfying that these movies center around a rich dude's irresponsibility and negligence, and yet it is the same rich dude who is unironically framed as a role model at the same time.
    And I'm saying that you are gravely misunderstanding what irresponsibility and negligence mean in this context to make Tony look like the bad guy.

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