The problem with Iron Man being Spider-Man's mentor in the MCU

[Huntsman Spider]

Not to mention it's basically Peter ripping Miles off.

Even the Arrowverse takes it too far in my opinion by letting virtually everyone in the hero's social circle know their secret identity, so no one really relates to them in a civilian capacity and everyone has to be involved in their Superhero life.

I mean, dear lord, the number of times Barry takes off his mask or haphazardly reveals his identity to someone...

Yeah, considering CW Barry rather heavily resembles Spider-Man in some ways, at least when it comes to how Spider-Man is commonly perceived and understood . . . That said, yeah, I do agree about MCU's "Ned" basically ripping off Miles's mythos for Peter, much like how with the Flash, so much of Wally West's mythos and development have been ripped off to prop up Barry Allen's more recent or modern depictions and adaptations.

[Hybrid]

I have a problem with the fact that this is even a problem for people. It's a goddamn interpretation of the character, not the end-all-be-all version. Why is this criticized and scrutinized more than anyone else?

Because their portrayal in other media matters.

[WebSlingWonder]

Because their portrayal in other media matters.

No, it really doesn't matter at all.

[Hybrid]

No, it really doesn't matter at all.

You really want people to get the message that Spidey is a Stark fanboy who needs a mentor? That's why it matters.

Anyways, for as much as you're saying "it's been done before", you keep repeating arguments yourself. No one's forcing you to take part in this.

[WebSlingWonder]

You really want people to get the message that Spidey is a Stark fanboy who needs a mentor? That's why it matters.

Anyways, for as much as you're saying "it's been done before", you keep repeating arguments yourself. No one's forcing you to take part in this.

Do you care that much if people do think Spidey is a Stark fanboy? If so, why? He's a fictional character at the end of the day. If the MCU shows him this way, there's bound to be one more interpretation. You're not stuck with this Spider-Man and have no right to try and relay the message that he's a fanboy or anything else when there are people who genuinely enjoy the films. No one's forcing you to parrot this same argument again and again.

[destinyascension]

Look at it from a Spider-verse perspective.
MCU Spider-man is not 616 Spider-man
MCU Spider-man is just one of many versions of Spider-men through out the multiverse.
Tom Spidey of Earth-199999 just so happens to be close to Tony Stark.

like Tom Spidey spidersona is the Iron-Spider.

[WebLurker]

On the secret identity issue, I prefer the balance, such as it is, struck by most of the Arrowverse series --- the general public isn't entitled to know who you are behind the mask, but you shouldn't lie to your friends and family and the other people you (claim to) love about who you are and what you're doing, especially if the latter ends up putting their lives at risk because someone with a grudge against you goes the Green Goblin/Venom route of visiting and playing nice with them to prove that they can get to you and/or your loved ones anytime they want.

I think, from a narrative standpoint, it depends on the characters involved and what kind of story is being told; I think both can tell good stories or set the tone for the characters well.

For example, the 2015 video game Life is Strange has you play as a teen named Max who discovers she has the power to reverse time, a pretty powerful ability even factoring in the limitations (she can only rewind back a few minutes at a time, burns herself out with constant use). While the game eschews the usual teen superhero tropes (she does use her power to help solve a local mystery, but it's all framed as a YA-style teen detective story with a bit of sci-fi as she explores what she can do), it does play a little bit with the secret identity aspect and who you tell or don't tell.

The only person Max confides in is her former best friend/potential love interest, Chloe. For her part, while initially jazzed about how cool this development is and bringing it when encouraging Max not to sell herself short, Chloe still sees and treats Max as the dorky girl who means the world to her. The narrative's placing the "superhero's" most important and defining relationship as one tied into the human aspect over the powers aspect frames the character and steers us to seeing Max less as a superhuman but a normal person with an unusual gift (also gives a clue how close they are that Chloe is the only person Max wants to let in on the secret). Compare with how Iron Man's secret identity is handled in terms of who knows and how in the movies; Pepper finds out during the tinkering phase, framing her relation with him and the superhero identity as it being just another crazy project he's working on, and I think it should be self-evident what him outing himself at a press conference

That said, I do agree for the most part that as cool as Iron Man's dynamic with Spider-Man in the MCU was at first, it's worn out its welcome by now and done a fair amount of damage to the perception of Spider-Man's ability to stand on his own two feet like he did in his original (and even his Ultimate) depictions.

Well, the second movie was about moving past it...

[Frontier]

Well, the second movie was about moving past it...

But they couldn't even do that exactly, like with how Happy has basically become part of Peter's supporting cast and the one time he builds his own professional suit it's using Stark resources, in a Stark suit making sequence, based off a design that Stark used for the Civil War suit.

And all of this is to fight, once again, a villain disgruntled over their treatment by Tony Stark.

So I appreciate the intent, if not the execution.

[WebSlingWonder]

But they couldn't even do that exactly, like with how Happy has basically become part of Peter's supporting cast and the one time he builds his own professional suit it's using Stark resources, in a Stark suit making sequence, based off a design that Stark used for the Civil War suit.

And all of this is to fight, once again, a villain disgruntled over their treatment by Tony Stark.

So I appreciate the intent, if not the execution.

What would you want them to do? Have Peter build a suit that looks exactly like the classic Spider-Man suit except it has no tech? Ditch Happy as a friend? Somehow, Mysterio stops hating on Stark and hates Peter (which he did by the way?)? At that point, you may as well rewrite the whole movie.

I don't understand how anyone could look at this series, despise it to want it to change or not exist, but cannot come up with a good reason to change it that doesn't boil down to personal opinion.

[Huntsman Spider]

I think, from a narrative standpoint, it depends on the characters involved and what kind of story is being told; I think both can tell good stories or set the tone for the characters well.

For example, the 2015 video game Life is Strange has you play as a teen named Max who discovers she has the power to reverse time, a pretty powerful ability even factoring in the limitations (she can only rewind back a few minutes at a time, burns herself out with constant use). While the game eschews the usual teen superhero tropes (she does use her power to help solve a local mystery, but it's all framed as a YA-style teen detective story with a bit of sci-fi as she explores what she can do), it does play a little bit with the secret identity aspect and who you tell or don't tell.

The only person Max confides in is her former best friend/potential love interest, Chloe. For her part, while initially jazzed about how cool this development is and bringing it when encouraging Max not to sell herself short, Chloe still sees and treats Max as the dorky girl who means the world to her. The narrative's placing the "superhero's" most important and defining relationship as one tied into the human aspect over the powers aspect frames the character and steers us to seeing Max less as a superhuman but a normal person with an unusual gift (also gives a clue how close they are that Chloe is the only person Max wants to let in on the secret). Compare with how Iron Man's secret identity is handled in terms of who knows and how in the movies; Pepper finds out during the tinkering phase, framing her relation with him and the superhero identity as it being just another crazy project he's working on, and I think it should be self-evident what him outing himself at a press conference



Well, the second movie was about moving past it...

Life Is Strange, huh? I've heard of that one, and I like the interpretation you present here. Definitely something to think about.

[Frontier]

What would you want them to do? Have Peter build a suit that looks exactly like the classic Spider-Man suit except it has no tech? Ditch Happy as a friend? Somehow, Mysterio stops hating on Stark and hates Peter (which he did by the way?)? At that point, you may as well rewrite the whole movie.

I don't understand how anyone could look at this series, despise it to want it to change or not exist, but cannot come up with a good reason to change it that doesn't boil down to personal opinion.

I mean, yeah? I feel like those elements detracted from it as a Spider-Man movie, which is why I'd take them out.

[Prof. Warren]

Look at it from a Spider-verse perspective.
MCU Spider-man is not 616 Spider-man
MCU Spider-man is just one of many versions of Spider-men through out the multiverse.
Tom Spidey of Earth-199999 just so happens to be close to Tony Stark.

like Tom Spidey spidersona is the Iron-Spider.

Yes, this is the best way to look at it.

Stop worrying that this isn't the "definitive" Spider-Man.

It isn't and isn't meant to be. It's just one interpretation among many that's meant to be enjoyed on its own terms.

[WebSlingWonder]

Yes, this is the best way to look at it.

Stop worrying that this isn't the "definitive" Spider-Man.

It isn't and isn't meant to be. It's just one interpretation among many that's meant to be enjoyed on its own terms.

Exactly. Quoted for truth

[boots]

What would you want them to do? Have Peter build a suit that looks exactly like the classic Spider-Man suit except it has no tech? Ditch Happy as a friend? Somehow, Mysterio stops hating on Stark and hates Peter (which he did by the way?)? At that point, you may as well rewrite the whole movie.

I don't understand how anyone could look at this series, despise it to want it to change or not exist, but cannot come up with a good reason to change it that doesn't boil down to personal opinion.

the reasons seem to be "'cos source material". which is kinda understandable, because it would have elements that readers consider to be intrinsic to the character.

at the same time, the current mcu was written more from a cohesive universe approach than the original marvel comics were, so it makes sense to me that they've created a whole bunch of new links and relationships. and it works for the cinema. it just does. whether a person likes it or not is another matter.

personally, i'm cool with adaptations reinventing the IP for their own purposes. it doesn't have some sort of magical feedback loop where stan's original comics morph in your hands and replace uncle ben with iron man.

though now i kinda wish they did. but replacing aunt may with tony.

[Hybrid]

What would you want them to do? Have Peter build a suit that looks exactly like the classic Spider-Man suit except it has no tech? Ditch Happy as a friend? Somehow, Mysterio stops hating on Stark and hates Peter (which he did by the way?)? At that point, you may as well rewrite the whole movie.

I don't understand how anyone could look at this series, despise it to want it to change or not exist, but cannot come up with a good reason to change it that doesn't boil down to personal opinion.

Problem is, they wrote themselves into this corner by making "Mr. Stark" his defining characterization and the single most important character in the Spider-Man MCU movies. What should've been done is that he interacts with multiple heroes, Iron Man of course, but also bonding with Cap and having a friendship with the others. I'd like to see a scene of Spidey and Hawkeye bonding, getting introspective on both, perhaps like this in Secret Wars:



However, he only interacts with Stark, and anything else is brief and token, amounting to a few sentences. Strange outright calls Peter his "ward" and nothing is done to combat that. This is before you get into Iron Man's "below my pay grade" attitude, which was insulting (Avengers have dealt with plenty of street level villains in the comics), dumb (Vulture was a huge threat both to the Avengers and to the people with the weapons he was trafficking), and worse, he was painted as being in the right somehow. If Spidey had died at the end at Vulture's hands, it would've been entirely his fault.

Let the record stand that I still enjoyed the movies, but Stark was a weak link. Unfortunately, because he's so prominent in them, that amounts to a lot gripes.

I also like the idea that Spidey couldn't make an accurate Ditko suit on his own, yet he could still build fully functional web shooters. Then he did make his own suit, albeit with Stark resources, but the bottom line is that both of these undermine the idea that "Peter couldn't make his own suit".

Also, I was actually looking forward to Nick Fury in FFH. I thought it would've been great to switch it up, exchange snark, and have a relationship similar to that of Ultimate. Plus, it'd be a nice break from Stark, while going with a memorable comics relationship (alternate universe, but still). Yet that was mishandled too. First, Nick Fury just pulls him in a mission with no agency of his own. Second, they don't have much of a relationship at all, just Fury talking down on Spidey, so no meaningful interactions. Third, that wasn't even Fury! The real Nick Fury thought so little of Spider-Man that he sent a Skrull double just to take of him like he was some pest, while he was on vacation at the S.W.O.R.D. base. Just insulting. I mean, Nick Fury was a hardass in USM to Spidey, but he did actually care about him, and certainly enough to show up in person.