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  1. #121
    Incredible Member Spidey_62's Avatar
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    I'm hopeful 2 things happen here on out for MCU Spider-Man: 1. he gets to do more on his own and stand as his own hero and figure out his own problems/ start making his own stuff again. It's way overdue at this point. 2. he teams up more meaningfully with other superheroes now that Iron Man is out of the picture. That's another thing that's overdue. When the whole Sony/Marvel deal was first announced, I thought we'd get to see more interactions between Spidey and other heroes. I didn't think that would mean Spidey just talks to Iron Man 90% of the time because he's the face of the MCU. I dunno, I think it just leaned way too far into it and leaned nowhere else. He had a few fun lines with Cap over 2 movies, and got to do some fun stuff with Doctor Strange. Beyond that it's all just fluff lines to people. He got to hang out with Nick Fury, but not even the real Nick Fury.

    I'm not a fan of Peter being so trusting with his secret identity in the MCU, either. Secret identities aren't a big part of the MCU, but for Spider-Man it should be a given. I got excited seeing Spidey in Endgame popping out of that portal, then instantly lost my buzz the next second because his mask pulls down in the middle of this giant superhero/alien battlefield. Like, in the grand scheme of things it's not important, but it's annoying because there's no need for it. Just so we can see Tom Holland's smiling face!

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Peter is not Tony's sidekick in Homecoming. Not at all, not in any way. People who complain that he is depicted as such have misread the movie entirely. Peter is not dependent on Tony. That's one of the main points the movie is making. Peter is his own man and his own hero.
    So, what would you call someone who takes the suits that Tony built for him, relies on Tony as a gateway to the Avengers, follows Tony around for all of Infinity War, cries more when Tony dies than even Pepper (Tony's own wife) did, is mainly concerned with carrying on Tony Stark's legacy in Far From Home, and continues to use Stark technology and resources to further his heroic exploits (also in Far From Home)?

    It would be one thing if Homecoming ended, with Peter realizing he didn't need Iron Man to validate him or show him how to be a hero, and then Far From Home happened with no mention of Iron Man at all. But Far From Home pretty much hammered home the point that the MCU framed Peter as the inheritor of Iron Man's legacy. That is even plainly stated by some of the characters in the movie. However, that's not something that Spider-Man has ever been about. Peter is the progenitor of his own legacy and the point of Spider-Man was that he didn't need an adult mentor in the vein of Batman and Robin. The MCU relationship between Tony and Peter, though, is very much akin to what I'd expect in a cinematic adaptation of Bruce Wayne and Dick Grayson's relationship.
    Last edited by Green Goblin of Sector 2814; 04-02-2020 at 10:22 AM.

  3. #123
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey_62 View Post
    I'm hopeful 2 things happen here on out for MCU Spider-Man: 1. he gets to do more on his own and stand as his own hero and figure out his own problems/ start making his own stuff again. It's way overdue at this point. 2. he teams up more meaningfully with other superheroes now that Iron Man is out of the picture. That's another thing that's overdue. When the whole Sony/Marvel deal was first announced, I thought we'd get to see more interactions between Spidey and other heroes. I didn't think that would mean Spidey just talks to Iron Man 90% of the time because he's the face of the MCU. I dunno, I think it just leaned way too far into it and leaned nowhere else. He had a few fun lines with Cap over 2 movies, and got to do some fun stuff with Doctor Strange. Beyond that it's all just fluff lines to people. He got to hang out with Nick Fury, but not even the real Nick Fury.

    I'm not a fan of Peter being so trusting with his secret identity in the MCU, either. Secret identities aren't a big part of the MCU, but for Spider-Man it should be a given. I got excited seeing Spidey in Endgame popping out of that portal, then instantly lost my buzz the next second because his mask pulls down in the middle of this giant superhero/alien battlefield. Like, in the grand scheme of things it's not important, but it's annoying because there's no need for it. Just so we can see Tom Holland's smiling face!
    He's even worse about his identity then Ultimate Peter was.

  4. #124
    World's Greatest Hero blackspidey2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    He at least got a brief moment with Dr. Strange in Infinity War, and Strange is one of those iconic Spidey team-ups. But not much else.

    Oh, Carol Danvers said hi to him, but I kind of doubt they're going to go anywhere with that.

    With the current Sony deal and Marvel Studios having the FF now, I wonder if we could finally see him meet Johnny, but I'm not sure what the dynamic would be. Assuming Johnny is in-character, MCU Peter is a little too placid to really play off Johnny like they normally do.
    Meh, the interaction with Strange was basically just Strange making jokes about Peter being Tony's ward. Hardly memorable, IMO.

    I would love to see a good portrayal of Peter hang out with a good portrayal of Johnny on screen - but at this rate, I'm not hopeful we'll see a good portrayal of either in the MCU.
    "Anyone can win a fight when the odds are easy! It's when the going's tough - when there seems to be no chance - that's when it counts!" - Spider-Man

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    So, what would you call someone who takes the suits that Tony built for him, relies on Tony as a gateway to the Avengers, follows Tony around for all of Infinity War, cries more when Tony dies than even Pepper (Tony's own wife) did, is mainly concerned with carrying on Tony Stark's legacy in Far From Home, and continues to use Stark technology and resources to further his heroic exploits (also in Far From Home)?
    The fact that Peter has a friendship and relationship with Tony is not to the diminishment of Peter or means that he's wholly dependent on Tony.

    Yes, he takes the suits that Tony builds for him. Just like Peter in the comics took the Iron Spider suit.

    But he is not dependent on the suits Tony gives him. He uses them and uses Stark tech to make a new suit in FFH because, well, why not?

    They are, after all, pretty cool.

    And while Tony is his gateway to the Avengers, who else would be that entry point? It's not like he has Black Widow on speed dial.

    It has to be remembered that Tony initially came to Peter. Peter didn't come to Tony begging to be involved in bigger hero matters. Tony came to Peter because Peter was already out there being Spider-Man.

    And Peter wants to be involved with The Avengers in Homecoming because he wants to do the most good and make a difference. Not just to impress Tony. His reasons for wanting to do more are altruistic, not selfish. He thinks that just doing his thing in Queens is small potatoes compared with what Tony and the Avengers do.

    But he ultimately turns down Tony's invitation to join the team because he finally realizes that you don't have to save the world to be a hero, you can just be a Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man and make a difference. Yes, he gets involved in Avengers business in IW/EG but in the comics, Spidey regularly gets roped into bigger things as well. You can't be a friendly neighborhood Spider-Man if there's no neighborhood left to protect.

    And he doesn't "follow Tony around through IW" - he's in freaking space with him, where else is he supposed to go?

    Honestly, the hang-up some fans have towards Tony and Peter's relationship in the MCU is ridiculous.

    If you're at the point where you complain that a kid is crying too much because someone he cares about died in front of him, what is there to say?

    I'm sure if he were completely stoic about it, there'd be something to complain about there, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    It would be one thing if Homecoming ended, with Peter realizing he didn't need Iron Man to validate him or show him how to be a hero, and then Far From Home happened with no mention of Iron Man at all. But Far From Home pretty much hammered home the point that the MCU framed Peter as the inheritor of Iron Man's legacy. That is even plainly stated by some of the characters in the movie. However, that's not something that Spider-Man has ever been about. Peter is the progenitor of his own legacy and the point of Spider-Man was that he didn't need an adult mentor in the vein of Batman and Robin. The MCU relationship between Tony and Peter, though, is very much akin to what I'd expect in a cinematic adaptation of Bruce Wayne and Dick Grayson's relationship.
    How often, when someone close to someone dies, is there no grieving process and no further mention of that person?

    Never is how often.

    It's completely natural that FFH would deal with the fallout from Tony's death.

    And when people complain "but, you know, that's not how it is in the comics!", for the umpteenth time THIS ISN'T THE COMICS!!!!

    The MCU is its own continuity. You would think that in a time where the Spider-Verse is a thing that it would be easy for fans to recognize that it's ok for many different interpretations of Spidey to co-exist. The MCU Spidey isn't just like the 616 Spidey. Isn't meant to be. So before anyone says "but Peter and Tony don't have that kind of relationship in the comics", just realize that the movies are not the comics.

    There are, of course, precedents in the comics for the MCU relationship, with Civil War and also in the Ultimate Universe where Peter is shown to idolize Tony but the MCU is telling its own story. And much of the way that story has been shaped is attributable to real world circumstance. Marvel doesn't own the rights to Spider-Man. Because of that, he couldn't be included at the start of MCU and his continued participation, after jumping in midstream, can't be taken for granted. So he has to be woven into this larger, ongoing tapestry in a much different way than Marvel handles the characters that are firmly under their own roof.

    Now, back when making their prospective deal with Sony, Marvel could have said that, because they don't have full control of the character, that they're just going to opt not to include him at all. Marvel could have taken the stance that without that ownership no deal is worth it because they want to fully control every aspect of the character and only want to tell Spider-Man stories that involve no compromise on their part. They could do that, sure, but that would be awfully dumb, no?

    The bottom line is that Feige and everyone involved understand that it's far better to have whatever fun they can have with Spider-Man in the MCU than to be completely rigid about it and have no fun at all. Spider-Man undergoes changes in every outside media adaptation. The MCU Spider-Man is no different. Once you accept that and understand that this is not meant to be "definitive" but just fun, it's much easier to enjoy it on its own terms.
    Last edited by Prof. Warren; 04-02-2020 at 01:18 PM.

  6. #126
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackspidey2099 View Post
    Meh, the interaction with Strange was basically just Strange making jokes about Peter being Tony's ward. Hardly memorable, IMO.
    Well, yeah, it's bad that Spidey gets mistaken for somebody's ward but we did get the "oh, we're using codenames" gag, which was kind of funny. Especially since MCU Spidey hardly quips.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    The fact that Peter has a friendship and relationship with Tony is not to the diminishment of Peter or means that he's wholly dependent on Tony.

    Yes, he takes the suits that Tony builds for him. Just like Peter in the comics took the Iron Spider suit.

    But he is not dependent on the suits Tony gives him. He uses them and uses Stark tech to make a new suit in FFH because, well, why not?

    They are, after all, pretty cool.

    And while Tony is his gateway to the Avengers, who else would be that entry point? It's not like he has Black Widow on speed dial.

    It has to be remembered that Tony initially came to Peter. Peter didn't come to Tony begging to be involved in bigger hero matters. Tony came to Peter because Peter was already out there being Spider-Man.

    And Peter wants to be involved with The Avengers in Homecoming because he wants to do the most good and make a difference. Not just to impress Tony. His reasons for wanting to do more are altruistic, not selfish. He thinks that just doing his thing in Queens is small potatoes compared with what Tony and the Avengers do.

    But he ultimately turns down Tony's invitation to join the team because he finally realizes that you don't have to save the world to be a hero, you can just be a Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man and make a difference. Yes, he gets involved in Avengers business in IW/EG but in the comics, Spidey regularly gets roped into bigger things as well. You can't be a friendly neighborhood Spider-Man if there's no neighborhood left to protect.

    And he doesn't "follow Tony around through IW" - he's in freaking space with him, where else is he supposed to go?

    Honestly, the hang-up some fans have towards Tony and Peter's relationship in the MCU is ridiculous.

    If you're at the point where you complain that a kid is crying too much because someone he cares about died in front of him, what is there to say?

    I'm sure if he were completely stoic about it, there'd be something to complain about there, too.



    How often, when someone close to someone dies, is there no grieving process and no further mention of that person?

    Never is how often.

    It's completely natural that FFH would deal with the fallout from Tony's death.

    And when people complain "but, you know, that's not how it is in the comics!", for the umpteenth time THIS ISN'T THE COMICS!!!!

    The MCU is its own continuity. You would think that in a time where the Spider-Verse is a thing that it would be easy for fans to recognize that it's ok for many different interpretations of Spidey to co-exist. The MCU Spidey isn't just like the 616 Spidey. Isn't meant to be. So before anyone says "but Peter and Tony don't have that kind of relationship in the comics", just realize that the movies are not the comics.

    There are, of course, precedents in the comics for the MCU relationship, with Civil War and also in the Ultimate Universe where Peter is shown to idolize Tony but the MCU is telling its own story. And much of the way that story has been shaped is attributable to real world circumstance. Marvel doesn't own the rights to Spider-Man. Because of that, he couldn't be included at the start of MCU and his continued participation, after jumping in midstream, can't be taken for granted. So he has to be woven into this larger, ongoing tapestry in a much different way than Marvel handles the characters that are firmly under their own roof.

    Now, back when making their prospective deal with Sony, Marvel could have said that, because they don't have full control of the character, that they're just going to opt not to include him at all. Marvel could have taken the stance that without that ownership no deal is worth it because they want to fully control every aspect of the character and only want to tell Spider-Man stories that involve no compromise on their part. They could do that, sure, but that would be awfully dumb, no?

    The bottom line is that Feige and everyone involved understand that it's far better to have whatever fun they can have with Spider-Man in the MCU than to be completely rigid about it and have no fun at all. Spider-Man undergoes changes in every outside media adaptation. The MCU Spider-Man is no different. Once you accept that and understand that this is not meant to be "definitive" but just fun, it's much easier to enjoy it on its own terms.
    A few problems with the arguments you present here:

    Tony not only build the Iron Spider Suit in the MCU, he also built Peter's main suit, which is 100% not from the comics

    Why not have Peter use Tony's tech to build a new suit? Maybe because he's supposed to be a genius capable of building his own stuff, which is how he's been portrayed for well over half a century?

    Yes, Tony came to Peter and there's nothing wrong with that, but the MCU has framed it as Tony "discovering" this new talent as opposed to Peter, you know, gaining a reputation for himself. The movies have presented Peter as "that kid Tony's mentoring" or "Tony's protege", instead of being his own separate person. Even Scott Lang, who is literally a legacy character, is treated with more agency and has more of an individual identity than Peter does.

    Peter literally says to Tony in Homecoming "I just wanted to be like you." He doesn't say "I just wanted to be on the team." So, yes, Tony is very much the central heroic figure in Peter's life.

    Yes, I know Peter turned down the invitation to join the Avengers in Homecoming, but then he also took back the suit that Tony built for him. Why not make another one, but instead one of his own designs just like every other cinematic and TV adaptation of Spider-Man has? That would have better served the central lesson of the movie.

    The precedent of Civil War never really made Peter out to be Tony's sidekick, even though Peter actually spent a short time working for Tony. The difference there was that Peter and Tony behaved toward each other as equals. Tony never talked down to him or punished him by taking away his suit as he did in Homecoming. And, while Peter trusted Tony, it was the trust that one friend puts in another. Tony was not, for all intents and purposes, Peter's guiding influence. In fact, Civil War actually ended with Peter and Tony's relationship strained as Tony's actions resulted in Peter losing trust in him and resenting Tony immensely.

    Nobody disputes that the film rights situation made it impossible to include Spider-Man from the start. However, the argument that the only way to include him now was through the creation of mentor-mentee relationship between him and Tony kind doesn't really hold up. That argument kind of loses steam when you consider that Captain Marvel was able to successfully introduce Carol Danvers as apparently one of the first heroes in the MCU without any of that. Likewise, almost every other character recently acquired is likely to be adapted, well, more or less how they are in the comics. I'd at least hope that the MCU will choose not to make Reed Richards into Tony Stark's former student or his secret illegitimate son or half-brother when they finally make a Fantastic Four movie.

    And lastly, while this isn't the comics, this is still Spider-Man we're talking about. And a big part of the Spider-Man identity and mythology is that it's about a kid who builds himself up, without the help of an adult mentor. That's a huge part of the character and is something that should be regarded in any adaptation. Taking that away from him is sort of like presenting us a Batman movie where Bruce is not motivated by the deaths of his parents and that in fact his parents are alive and well.
    Last edited by Green Goblin of Sector 2814; 04-02-2020 at 05:42 PM.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    A few problems with the arguments you present here:

    Tony not only build the Iron Spider Suit in the MCU, he also built Peter's main suit, which is 100% not from the comics
    Yes, as discussed this is not the comics.

    The germ of the idea of Tony making a spider suit surely sprang from the Iron Spider storyline, though.

    It just manifests in a different way in the films.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Why not have Peter use Tony's tech to build a new suit? Maybe because he's supposed to be a genius capable of building his own stuff, which is how he's been portrayed for well over half a century?
    Well, he does use Tony's tech to build a new suit in FFH.

    But if you mean why doesn't he invent his own tech in the movies and build his own suit from that tech, well, movies do have running times and this doesn't seem like a whole plot thread that's worth going down simply to satisfy those fans who insist that Peter should do everything himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Yes, Tony came to Peter and there's nothing wrong with that, but the MCU has framed it as Tony "discovering" this new talent as opposed to Peter, you know, gaining a reputation for himself. The movies have presented Peter as "that kid Tony's mentoring" or "Tony's protege", instead of being his own separate person. Even Scott Lang, who is literally a legacy character, is treated with more agency and has more of an individual identity than Peter does.
    No, the whole point is that Peter did have a reputation for himself. Tony only discovered him because of what Peter was already doing.

    And, once again, Peter is in a different position than any other character in the MCU. He's not Scott Lang. Marvel owns Scott Lang. Any character Marvel owns themselves is free to be more "stand alone" than Peter. Peter is on temporary loan. The circumstances are completely different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Peter literally says to Tony in Homecoming "I just wanted to be like you." He doesn't say "I just wanted to be on the team." So, yes, Tony is very much the central heroic figure in Peter's life.
    Yes, and? Just because Peter looks up to Tony doesn't mean that he is his sidekick or is wholly dependent on him.

    And before any one says "But that's not how it is in the comics!" let me state again that this is not the comics. Different universe. Different reality. Different Spider-Man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Yes, I know Peter turned down the invitation to join the Avengers in Homecoming, but then he also took back the suit that Tony built for him. Why not make another one, but instead one of his own designs just like every other cinematic and TV adaptation of Spider-Man has? That would have better served the central lesson of the movie.
    Some fans place way too much emphasis on Peter's skills as a costume designer. I don't think a lot of people really care how Peter gets his costume. They just want him in something that looks like the comics. Maybe in the next live action adaptation he'll make his own costume again. He did it in the two before. This time around it's a little different. I don't regard it as anything detrimental to the character. Especially as we see he did make his own homemade costume. If he didn't do that, if he didn't make his own web-shooters and web fluid or come up with his Spider-Man identity, that would be a problem. But all Tony did is design him a more tricked out suit.

    And yes, that's not like the comics but again, THIS IS NOT THE COMICS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    The precedent of Civil War never really made Peter out to be Tony's sidekick, even though Peter actually spent a short time working for Tony. The difference there was that Peter and Tony behaved toward each other as equals. Tony never talked down to him or punished him by taking away his suit as he did in Homecoming. And, while Peter trusted Tony, it was the trust that one friend puts in another. Tony was not, for all intents and purposes, Peter's guiding influence. In fact, Civil War actually ended with Peter and Tony's relationship strained as Tony's actions resulted in Peter losing trust in him and resenting Tony immensely.
    Well the 616 Peter and Tony in CW in the comics are much different than the MCU Peter and Tony. Comics and movies...two different things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Nobody disputes that the film rights situation made it impossible to include Spider-Man from the start. However, the argument that the only way to include him now was through the creation of mentor-mentee relationship between him and Tony kind doesn't really hold up. That argument kind of loses steam when you consider that Captain Marvel was able to successfully introduce Carol Danvers as apparently one of the first heroes in the MCU without any of that. Likewise, almost every other character recently acquired is likely to be adapted, well, more or less how they are in the comics. I'd at least hope that the MCU will choose not to make Reed Richards into Tony Stark's former student or his secret illegitimate son or half-brother when they finally make a Fantastic Four movie.
    What's the difference between Carol and Peter?

    Think about it. I'll wait. Do you have it yet? Now? Do you have it now?

    That's right...Marvel owns Carol. They can do whatever they want with her. They can introduce her any way they please, take their time with her, have her as set apart or as intertwined with the MCU as they please.

    Really, any time someone wants to point to another character in the MCU and ask "well, if they can be shown to be independent why not Peter?", please, stop and remember "Oh, right - Marvel doesn't own Peter. Got it."

    So when Reed Richards is introduced in such a way in the MCU that gives him more of his own space, don't wonder why they couldn't do the same with Peter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    And lastly, while this isn't the comics, this is still Spider-Man we're talking about. And a big part of the Spider-Man identity and mythology is that it's about a kid who builds himself up, without the help of an adult mentor. That's a huge part of the character and is something that should be regarded in any adaptation. Taking that away from him is sort of like presenting us a Batman movie where Bruce is not motivated by the deaths of his parents and that in fact his parents are alive and well.
    No, it's nothing like that. Peter in the MCU has the same underlying motivation of the comic book Peter.

    The fact that the particulars of his early career differ later doesn't mean the base foundation was changed.

  9. #129
    Incredible Member Spidey_62's Avatar
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    I hate to bring up the Uncle Ben MCU rabbit hole but it does irk me. I disliked the parents being so involved in Peter's motivations in the Amazing series, too. I liked how we got the core idea focused so strongly in the Raimi movies as to why he's Spider-Man, Ben's presence/ the guilt was felt a lot. I like how they mentioned it in Civil War without directly stating it, as a Spidey fan you get what he's talking about. The fact that it was never mentioned again in 4 more (2 solo films) appearances ever just feels wrong.

    Spidey loses a lot of people, so Far From Home would have been a perfect time to reflect on that. Instead the only thing paid any service was the great loss of Tony. I see Spidey in a scenario like that saying "first I lost Uncle Ben by not doing the right thing, now I lost Tony even when I did the right thing." It's like part of the reasoning Gerry Conway had for killing Gwen, Uncle Ben was a while ago due to his negligence and he became a hero and now we'll have him lose somebody close to him by doing everything he can.

    Not only that, but reducing Aunt May discovering the identity to a joke at the end, and having nothing really change in the next movie except some fun banter between them now. It's just not the kind of stuff I want out of Spidey, it's like they have no desire to mine the potentially great material they have right at their fingertips and instead pay lip service to the bare minimum or miss the "Spidey-factor" they should be tapping into.

    People like fun times at the movies so that's what they're making and people like it, but you can make a fun movie and give it some real heft as well.
    Last edited by Spidey_62; 04-02-2020 at 08:52 PM.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Yes, as discussed this is not the comics.

    The germ of the idea of Tony making a spider suit surely sprang from the Iron Spider storyline, though.

    It just manifests in a different way in the films.
    Dude. Do you really not see how that makes Peter dependent on Tony? The "germ" of that idea was never of Tony building all of Peter's suits. And, again, him doing so only serves to make Peter too dependent on Tony and his tech.

    Well, he does use Tony's tech to build a new suit in FFH.

    But if you mean why doesn't he invent his own tech in the movies and build his own suit from that tech, well, movies do have running times and this doesn't seem like a whole plot thread that's worth going down simply to satisfy those fans who insist that Peter should do everything himself.
    The other Spider-Man movies seemed to have no problem with it.

    No, the whole point is that Peter did have a reputation for himself. Tony only discovered him because of what Peter was already doing.

    And, once again, Peter is in a different position than any other character in the MCU. He's not Scott Lang. Marvel owns Scott Lang. Any character Marvel owns themselves is free to be more "stand alone" than Peter. Peter is on temporary loan. The circumstances are completely different.
    No, Peter had a few sightings until Tony decided to pluck him out of obscurity.

    One could argue that that's actually reason to make Spider-Man more independent...because at any moment, Sony could decide they don't want him in the MCU anymore.

    Yes, and? Just because Peter looks up to Tony doesn't mean that he is his sidekick or is wholly dependent on him.

    And before any one says "But that's not how it is in the comics!" let me state again that this is not the comics. Different universe. Different reality. Different Spider-Man.
    No, Peter looking up to him so much + Tony building him his suits + Tony "firing" Peter in Homecoming + Peter being the steward of Stark tech after Tony's death + both of Peter's villains so far being people who had bones to pick with Tony Stark makes Peter essentially Tony's sidekick.

    And I don't care if this is the comics or not. Spider-Man is Marvel's most famous character. He should be allowed to stand on his own because that's who he is. Independence is a part of who the character is.

    Some fans place way too much emphasis on Peter's skills as a costume designer. I don't think a lot of people really care how Peter gets his costume. They just want him in something that looks like the comics. Maybe in the next live action adaptation he'll make his own costume again. He did it in the two before. This time around it's a little different. I don't regard it as anything detrimental to the character. Especially as we see he did make his own homemade costume. If he didn't do that, if he didn't make his own web-shooters and web fluid or come up with his Spider-Man identity, that would be a problem. But all Tony did is design him a more tricked out suit.

    And yes, that's not like the comics but again, THIS IS NOT THE COMICS.
    Nobody cares about his "skills" as a costume designer. They care about the fact that Peter made everything that made him into a superhero on his own. Again, it doesn't matter that this isn't the comics. Spider-Man is Spider-Man. The core of the mythology is that it was about a young man finding his own way and was directly a rebuttal to the idea that young people needed to be guided by older mentors. That was literally the reason Stan Lee gave for the character's creation.

    Well the 616 Peter and Tony in CW in the comics are much different than the MCU Peter and Tony. Comics and movies...two different things.
    Again, Spider-Man is his own hero, regardless of whether its in the movies or in the comics. That's the core of the character. He shouldn't be made into the protege of another.

    What's the difference between Carol and Peter?

    Think about it. I'll wait. Do you have it yet? Now? Do you have it now?

    That's right...Marvel owns Carol. They can do whatever they want with her. They can introduce her any way they please, take their time with her, have her as set apart or as intertwined with the MCU as they please.

    Really, any time someone wants to point to another character in the MCU and ask "well, if they can be shown to be independent why not Peter?", please, stop and remember "Oh, right - Marvel doesn't own Peter. Got it."

    So when Reed Richards is introduced in such a way in the MCU that gives him more of his own space, don't wonder why they couldn't do the same with Peter.
    Except you haven't really explained why or how that means that they need to make Spider-Man into Iron Man's mentee. Again, as I said, wouldn't it make more sense for them to make Peter's corner of the MCU more independent?

    No, it's nothing like that. Peter in the MCU has the same underlying motivation of the comic book Peter.

    The fact that the particulars of his early career differ later doesn't mean the base foundation was changed.
    Does he? Spider-Man has traditionally been all about personal accountability and responsibility because of his failure to stop the man who ended up killing his uncle. However, there's been no mention of any of that in the MCU.
    Last edited by Green Goblin of Sector 2814; 04-02-2020 at 11:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Dude. Do you really not see how that makes Peter dependent on Tony? The "germ" of that idea was never of Tony building all of Peter's suits. And, again, him doing so only serves to make Peter too dependent on Tony and his tech.
    The germ of the idea was what if Tony designed a high tech Spider-suit. That's all. That's the germ of the idea.

    I'm very sure that's where the MCU pulled the concept from. It's a fun idea that immediately lends itself to being applied to the MCU.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    The other Spider-Man movies seemed to have no problem with it.
    Yes, and other Spider-Man films to come will likely have Peter making his own suit. They're doing something different here just to shake things up, have some fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    No, Peter had a few sightings until Tony decided to pluck him out of obscurity.
    But yet he was out there, making a name for himself. And would have continued to do so if Tony hadn't come around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    One could argue that that's actually reason to make Spider-Man more independent...because at any moment, Sony could decide they don't want him in the MCU anymore.
    When that time comes, Sony will have no problem making a solo Spider-Man movie. They've done it just fine before.

    In the meantime, the whole point of having Spidey in the MCU is to take full advantage of this unique opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    No, Peter looking up to him so much + Tony building him his suits + Tony "firing" Peter in Homecoming + Peter being the steward of Stark tech after Tony's death + both of Peter's villains so far being people who had bones to pick with Tony Stark makes Peter essentially Tony's sidekick.
    No, not his sidekick. Their stories have more of a connection than they ever have in the comics but, again, this is a unique situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    And I don't care if this is the comics or not. Spider-Man is Marvel's most famous character. He should be allowed to stand on his own because that's who he is. Independence is a part of who the character is.
    And as I mentioned in an earlier post, Marvel could have taken a hard line on that and not wanted to team up with Sony because they either wanted to have Spider-Man fully independent or not at all but clearly everyone concerned realized that bringing Spidey into the MCU is simply a fun idea and so why not have fun. Eventually Spidey will go back to Sony as a solo act but, in the meantime why not just enjoy putting Spidey in the MCU sandbox and play with all the possibilities that offers for as long as it lasts.

    If you are so hung up on "but he's not independent enough!" and absolutely nothing can put your mind at ease about the fact that, hey, this is telling a slightly different Spider-Man story, then it's not for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Nobody cares about his "skills" as a costume designer. They care about the fact that Peter made everything that made him into a superhero on his own. Again, it doesn't matter that this isn't the comics. Spider-Man is Spider-Man. The core of the mythology is that it was about a young man finding his own way and was directly a rebuttal to the idea that young people needed to be guided by older mentors. That was literally the reason Stan Lee gave for the character's creation.
    Peter could do everything on his own in the MCU. We see that.

    It's just fun to see him working with a tricked out suit with some cool tech.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Again, Spider-Man is his own hero, regardless of whether its in the movies or in the comics. That's the core of the character. He shouldn't be made into the protege of another.
    If you can't get past this not being 100% true to what you want to see in a Spidey film, there's not much else to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Except you haven't really explained why or how that means that they need to make Spider-Man into Iron Man's mentee. Again, as I said, wouldn't it make more sense for them to make Peter's corner of the MCU more independent?
    "I know this is an unprecedented collaboration between two studios but shouldn't it seem like they're barely collaborating at all?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Does he? Spider-Man has traditionally been all about personal accountability and responsibility because of his failure to stop the man who ended up killing his uncle. However, there's been no mention of any of that in the MCU.
    Because it doesn't have to be mentioned. We know that part of Spider-Man's history.

    Every Spider-Man story ever told doesn't have to go over the same backstory over and over for the benefit of people who have never read or seen anything else with Spider-Man in it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    The germ of the idea was what if Tony designed a high tech Spider-suit. That's all. That's the germ of the idea.

    I'm very sure that's where the MCU pulled the concept from. It's a fun idea that immediately lends itself to being applied to the MCU.
    Again, Tony never made Peter's main suit for him. And Peter even ended up rejecting the Iron Spider suit after Civil War because, guess what, Tony was actually using that suit to spy on Peter. That's the point. Tony being the architect of Peter's arsenal gives him too much control over Peter.

    Yes, and other Spider-Man films to come will likely have Peter making his own suit. They're doing something different here just to shake things up, have some fun.
    Yeah, but we're talking about the one we have currently. The one who is part of the MCU, which for many people, will likely be the definitive interpretation of the Marvel Universe. And to a large extent, rightfully so, because of all of its successes. So, I think it'd be any fan's wish that the character was accurately portrayed in this universe.

    But yet he was out there, making a name for himself. And would have continued to do so if Tony hadn't come around.
    I actually wouldn't have minded seeing that. Not necessarily Tony never coming to his door, but what would have happened if, after that, Tony sort of just left Peter in the neighborhood where he found him instead of grooming him to be an Avenger and Peter had to earn that recognition on his own.

    In the meantime, the whole point of having Spidey in the MCU is to take full advantage of this unique opportunity.
    Well, actually the point is just having Spider-Man in the MCU because Spidey is Marvel's most famous and most recognizable character (deservedly so). But again, does that require changing him in ways that seem at least less than faithful to core concepts of the character?

    No, not his sidekick. Their stories have more of a connection than they ever have in the comics but, again, this is a unique situation.
    They've essentially made Peter into an extension of Tony's legacy. And that would be fine for Iron Lad. But Peter, again, was created as a direct rebuttal to that idea.

    And as I mentioned in an earlier post, Marvel could have taken a hard line on that and not wanted to team up with Sony because they either wanted to have Spider-Man fully independent or not at all but clearly everyone concerned realized that bringing Spidey into the MCU is simply a fun idea and so why not have fun. Eventually Spidey will go back to Sony as a solo act but, in the meantime why not just enjoy putting Spidey in the MCU sandbox and play with all the possibilities that offers for as long as it lasts.
    But again, did that really require changing the character in such fundamental ways and making his character extremely dependent on another? Peter exists just fine in the comics as part of the larger Marvel Universe without being made too reliant on connections to other characters. He has connections to other characters, of course, like to the Fantastic Four and even to the Avengers, but he's still his own person and isn't an extension of someone else's legacy.

    But actually, I think you're misunderstanding the position that some fans are taking. Nobody is mad at integrating and fully cementing Peter in the MCU. In fact, I'd say people are very happy about that. I mean, Marvel just doesn't feel like Marvel without Spider-Man. However, I think some fans are just a little uncomfortable with how they've chosen to integrate him into the MCU. Again, there were other ways to fully take advantage of Spider-Man being in this universe. Even if the whole of Civil War happened more or less the same, the decisions made after that made Tony a little too prominent in Peter's life.

    If you can't get past this not being 100% true to what you want to see in a Spidey film, there's not much else to say.
    There's a difference between not being 100% true to something on one hand and going against fundamental themes and aspects of the character on the other. Again, Stan Lee himself said that he created the character to not need an adult mentor.

    Because it doesn't have to be mentioned. We know that part of Spider-Man's history.

    Every Spider-Man story ever told doesn't have to go over the same backstory over and over for the benefit of people who have never read or seen anything else with Spider-Man in it.
    Nobody is asking for a recap. But, I don't know, a namedrop? It's a huge part of who Peter is. But as it stands, it seems that MCU Peter never even knew anyone named Ben.
    Last edited by Green Goblin of Sector 2814; 04-03-2020 at 06:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    How often, when someone close to someone dies, is there no grieving process and no further mention of that person?

    Never is how often.
    It certainly worked for Ben Parker in this continuity.

    I jest! I jest!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey_62 View Post
    Not only that, but reducing Aunt May discovering the identity to a joke at the end, and having nothing really change in the next movie except some fun banter between them now. It's just not the kind of stuff I want out of Spidey, it's like they have no desire to mine the potentially great material they have right at their fingertips and instead pay lip service to the bare minimum or miss the "Spidey-factor" they should be tapping into.
    Aunt May is another area where I feel like the MCU has dropped the ball. It feels like they've barely done anything of note with her and Peter, they barely addressed her reaction to him being Spider-Man, she never mentions Ben like Peter doesn't, and most of the time she's either being flirted with or used for comedy as Happy's prospective non-girlfriend. Because Marisa Tomei.

    As underused as she was in the ASM films, at least she had emotional heft.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Again, Tony never made Peter's main suit for him. And Peter even ended up rejecting the Iron Spider suit after Civil War because, guess what, Tony was actually using that suit to spy on Peter. That's the point. Tony being the architect of Peter's arsenal gives him too much control over Peter.
    It doesn't give Tony any control over Peter.

    Tony takes the suit back in Homecoming and Peter still goes after the Vulture on his own with his homemade suit.

    It's seeing how independent Peter really is that prompts Tony to extend Peter an invitation to The Avengers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Yeah, but we're talking about the one we have currently. The one who is part of the MCU, which for many people, will likely be the definitive interpretation of the Marvel Universe. And to a large extent, rightfully so, because of all of its successes. So, I think it'd be any fan's wish that the character was accurately portrayed in this universe.
    Again, people worry far, far, far too much about what they believe other people think or know.

    One of the chief complaints about the MCU is from comic fans being all worked up about the thought of non comic fans not fully grasping the true Spider-Man mythology.

    Who cares?

    Fans are introduced to Spider-Man in many, many different ways.

    Through The Electric Company, through the '70s Nicholas Hammond TV series, through Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends. And on and on and on.

    Once they're introduced to the character, if they are interested enough to learn more the comics are there to be discovered.

    If they don't want to learn more - so what?

    If the MCU is all some people know about Spider-Man it's not the end of the world, really.

    As a fan, I like the MCU Spidey on its own terms for what it is.

    I understand that this will certainly not be the last incarnation of Spider-Man on screen so this is just the current version.

    In another few years, there'll be another and another after that and so on and all of them will have their own strengths and weaknesses as adaptations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    I actually wouldn't have minded seeing that. Not necessarily Tony never coming to his door, but what would have happened if, after that, Tony sort of just left Peter in the neighborhood where he found him instead of grooming him to be an Avenger and Peter had to earn that recognition on his own.
    The extent to which people really don't get the concept of integrating Spidey into the MCU is astounding.

    Every suggestion as to how it could have been done "better" amounts to variations on keeping Peter as isolated as possible.

    "What if Tony dropped by, like once, and then left and never came around again? Wouldn't that be better?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Well, actually the point is just having Spider-Man in the MCU because Spidey is Marvel's most famous and most recognizable character (deservedly so). But again, does that require changing him in ways that seem at least less than faithful to core concepts of the character?
    The changes are no where near as drastic as some fans want to portray them as.

    Spidey in the MCU is still completely recognizable as Spidey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    They've essentially made Peter into an extension of Tony's legacy. And that would be fine for Iron Lad. But Peter, again, was created as a direct rebuttal to that idea.
    Some fans are hung up on the idea that Peter is somehow Tony's sidekick. But he isn't. That's not the relationship they have in the films.

    They have a different, more personal bond than they do in the comics. But that's ok because, for the millionth time, this is not the comics.

    This is a different reality. And, as explained previously, the real world circumstances involving Spidey's participation demand that there be more inter-connectivity with Spidey and the MCU. Having Tony be the main focal point of that makes sense within the context of the MCU.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    But again, did that really require changing the character in such fundamental ways and making his character extremely dependent on another? Peter exists just fine in the comics as part of the larger Marvel Universe without being made too reliant on connections to other characters. He has connections to other characters, of course, like to the Fantastic Four and even to the Avengers, but he's still his own person and isn't an extension of someone else's legacy.
    He's not "extremely dependent."

    And again, the extent to which people really don't get the Sony/Marvel deal is mind blowing.

    "But in the comics..."

    Yes, in the comics that Marvel has full control over.

    "But in the movies they have, you know, Carol be on her own..."

    Yes, the character that Marvel Studio fully owns and use any way they please.

    If some fans could really, fully wrap their heads around how the particular circumstances of Spidey in the MCU are completely different from the comics themselves and from how other Marvel-owned characters can be utilized in the MCU, that would be great.

    But I have a feeling it will never sink in and it will always be an endless string of suggestions like "but what if Spider-Man, you know, just swung past Avengers Towers in the last shot of the movie?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    But actually, I think you're misunderstanding the position that some fans are taking. Nobody is mad at integrating and fully cementing Peter in the MCU. In fact, I'd say people are very happy about that. I mean, Marvel just doesn't feel like Marvel without Spider-Man. However, I think some fans are just a little uncomfortable with how they've chosen to integrate him into the MCU. Again, there were other ways to fully take advantage of Spider-Man being in this universe. Even if the whole of Civil War happened more or less the same, the decisions made after that made Tony a little too prominent in Peter's life.
    The "discomfort" seems to stem from misreadings of the movie itself (Peter is not Tony's sidekick, that's a distorted perception) and misunderstanding why Sony and Marvel are collaborating in the first place (it's not to make solo Spider-Man movies or to make movies that barely involve the MCU - it's to really put Spider-Man squarely in the MCU).

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    There's a difference between not being 100% true to something on one hand and going against fundamental themes and aspects of the character on the other. Again, Stan Lee himself said that he created the character to not need an adult mentor.
    The fundamental theme of the character is "with great power comes great responsibility." The MCU Spidey embodies that just fine.

    Also, Downey Jr. and Holland have a wonderful chemistry together. I'm glad that the filmmakers had the sense to take full advantage of it as it would have been a real shame not to get as much mileage out of that connection as possible while the opportunity was there. Peter has had many adult mentors in the comics, from JJJ to Robbie Robertson to Capt. Stacy. Peter's had many surrogate dads in the comics. That he should have Tony as a mentor figure in the MCU is completely legitimate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Nobody is asking for a recap. But, I don't know, a namedrop? It's a huge part of who Peter is. But as it stands, it seems that MCU Peter never even knew anyone named Ben.
    You can read whole runs of the comic with barely or any mention of Ben. The comics are free to just tell Spider-Man stories as they see fit. They don't have to remind the reader constantly about Uncle Ben. After five films in which Ben was a key player, the movies have earned the right to move on a bit too.

    I wouldn't be surprised if, before Holland's time as Spidey is over, that there will be a flashback referring to his origin but for the stories they've been telling it hasn't been necessary. You can read a whole stack of Spidey comics and not have Ben mentioned in them once. It doesn't undermine who the character is. I'm glad that the MCU Spidey films have proven that you can just get on with telling an exciting Spidey story without being any more obliged than the comics are to give Ben a name check.

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