LIVE: Remender & Brevoort Deliver Act Two of "AXIS"

[sifighter]

Well, what i got from planet x is that everyone who didnt agree with havok's plan was a selfish !"#$%&%$, that the mutants "sacrified" earth to get a nice place to live and that's terrible (is almost as bad as taking 40 cakes), and that the heroic havok travelled back in time to save the earth from those evil, evil mutants.

That's not what happened at all. The Mutants had nothing to do with that, in fact they didn't even know what happened, only that every mutant was raptured onto the Ark by the Apocalypse twins and the Scarlet Witch. When in reality all they did was ensure the destruction of the earth and blamed it's destruction on the Avengers while also planning the assassination of the X-Council.

All Havok wanted to do was go back in time and save the earth.

[jackolover]

I would like to read an evil Wolverine. He is made to kill super heroes, and if Logan is evil and Doom and Magneto are heroes, then Logan can rip them apart if he gets the chance. All the villains who become hero will have evil Wolverine going around killing them.

[Star_Jammer]

Well, what i got from planet x is that everyone who didnt agree with havok's plan was a selfish !"#$%&%$, that the mutants "sacrified" earth to get a nice place to live and that's terrible (is almost as bad as taking 40 cakes), and that the heroic havok travelled back in time to save the earth from those evil, evil mutants.

Yup. Sensationalism at it's finest.

Ignore ALL the logics and facts!

[Atren]

All of this sounds exciting because I loved Remender's Uncanny X-Force so anything that ties back into those stories I'm all for.

Also the "inversion" I'm guessing is what makes Thor unworthy to wield Mjolnir. That could mean the Enchantress ends up becoming the one worthy to wield it.

I doubt that will happen. Wolverine dying and now Sabretooth is supposed to be inverted, I would be surprised if anyone beside him was the one who going to get longer spotlight.

I still think it will be Jane Foster as she is in right place as well as others do not need to be Thor in order to make difference. Albeit if it were Amora then concealing her identity from everyone would make sense just as Jane concealing it.

[Raye]

All of this sounds exciting because I loved Remender's Uncanny X-Force so anything that ties back into those stories I'm all for.

Also the "inversion" I'm guessing is what makes Thor unworthy to wield Mjolnir. That could mean the Enchantress ends up becoming the one worthy to wield it.

I suppose it's possible. There is a scene in Agent of Asgard that i think may have been some foreshadowing for him becoming unworthy, but it can kinda be interpreted 2 ways. Thor (under mind control of a sort) tried to kill Loki, just, kill him dead, once and for all. Now, until a few years ago, this probably wouldn't have been a big deal, but Loki is reformed right now, making it an unprovoked attempted murder, (unless you consider hacking into the Avengers computer to be a death worthy offense) so... he briefly became unworthy. He dropped the hammer and couldn't lift it, until Loki removed the evil from him. All was well and he was able to pick up Mjolnir again as soon as he was himself again. Now, the two interpretations. He became unworthy when he tried to kill Loki, he had done a lot of awful stuff while under the influence of this magic, but Loki was the tipping point where he dropped the hammer. That could mean the big moment happens in the Original Sin tie-in they are in together, maybe Loki's BIG SECRET gets out and Thor tries to kill him over it. But this time, it's actually HIM, not some outside force, so it's not so easy to bounce back from. On the other hand, he was under the control of an evil force infecting him. This 'inversion' strikes me as more of an outside influence of some kind, otherwise it's just weird that all the heroes and villains flip at the same time, and it's already been demonstrated that an outside influence CAN make him become unworthy. Personally, I am leaning towards the Original sin tie-in because Thor is already unworthy on the first batch of covers BEFORE the inversion, but... you never know.

As for Enchantress, I am thinking she is the 'Sorceress Supreme' mentioned in the article, not the new Thor.

So I don't know if I missed something but what is inversion? Why are the characters inverted? Do they just have a change of mind as to what side they are on? Or are they changed by something or someone? Or is it another dimension or something?

I feel like they failed to actually mention why so many hap characters have a change of heart.

Well, you can't really expect them to give out all the plot details on the whys and hows in an interview, can you? I mean, why even read the book if they give it all away.... Though, as i said above, I suspect there is an outside influence at work, it could be Red Skull, that seems pretty likely. But in any case, everybody getting 'inverted' all at the same time definitely says 'outside force' of some kind to me.

[CSTowle]

That's not what happened at all. The Mutants had nothing to do with that, in fact they didn't even know what happened, only that every mutant was raptured onto the Ark by the Apocalypse twins and the Scarlet Witch. When in reality all they did was ensure the destruction of the earth and blamed it's destruction on the Avengers while also planning the assassination of the X-Council.

All Havok wanted to do was go back in time and save the earth.

I've long since stopped reading Remender-written books, but holy s-word does that sound just awful.

[dragonmp93]

Yup. Sensationalism at it's finest.

Ignore ALL the logics and facts!

Well, thats what i got from the first page of the spoilers thread.

[Star_Jammer]

Well, thats what i got from the first page of the spoilers thread.

I hear forming one's own opinion based on someone else's opinion is a good idea.

Sarcasm, btw.

[RobinFan4880]

I've long since stopped reading Remender-written books, but holy s-word does that sound just awful.

It read way better in the comic. Quite exciting.

[dragonmp93]

I hear forming one's own opinion based on someone else's opinion is a good idea.

Sarcasm, btw.

Well, im not spending my money in something that i dont like; but given that this book is supposed to be the bridge between the avengers and the x-men, i like to be updated.

[Chainsaw Vigilante]

Wondering how Apocalypse will come into play. Will it just be an evil version of Genesis or will En Sabah Nur be reborn through Genesis or separate. How will Death Sentry play into that as well, seeing as he is communicating with the Apocalypse force?

I do like that Cap and Spidey are two that will not be turned, as the truest bastions of heroism in Marvel.

Glad the gray area of certain characters like Magneto is being taken into consideration. Magneto, Doom, and Loki will be interesting.
Will Deadpool invert to become sane and boring?

As for Polaris not being with her kin on that cover, perhaps it's because she was basically shoehorned in as a relative due to having magnetic powers. It's like how Byrne tried to make Sandman and the Osborn's related because they have the same haircut, or when Earth X made The Beast, Moon Boy, and Wolverine all part of the same human offshoot group (actually prime humans).

[XPac]

It read way better in the comic. Quite exciting.

I personally thought the whole arc was a lot if fun. Frankly I think that should have been the big summer event over original sin. It felt like an event.

[XPac]

Wondering how Apocalypse will come into play. Will it just be an evil version of Genesis or will En Sabah Nur be reborn through Genesis or separate. How will Death Sentry play into that as well, seeing as he is communicating with the Apocalypse force?

I do like that Cap and Spidey are two that will not be turned, as the truest bastions of heroism in Marvel.

Glad the gray area of certain characters like Magneto is being taken into consideration. Magneto, Doom, and Loki will be interesting.
Will Deadpool invert to become sane and boring?

As for Polaris not being with her kin on that cover, perhaps it's because she was basically shoehorned in as a relative due to having magnetic powers. It's like how Byrne tried to make Sandman and the Osborn's related because they have the same haircut, or when Earth X made The Beast, Moon Boy, and Wolverine all part of the same human offshoot group (actually prime humans).

I hope it's the original. Frankly I'm still not entirely sure why he's not around.

[Punisher007]

Wondering how Apocalypse will come into play. Will it just be an evil version of Genesis or will En Sabah Nur be reborn through Genesis or separate. How will Death Sentry play into that as well, seeing as he is communicating with the Apocalypse force?

I do like that Cap and Spidey are two that will not be turned, as the truest bastions of heroism in Marvel.

Glad the gray area of certain characters like Magneto is being taken into consideration. Magneto, Doom, and Loki will be interesting.
Will Deadpool invert to become sane and boring?

As for Polaris not being with her kin on that cover, perhaps it's because she was basically shoehorned in as a relative due to having magnetic powers. It's like how Byrne tried to make Sandman and the Osborn's related because they have the same haircut, or when Earth X made The Beast, Moon Boy, and Wolverine all part of the same human offshoot group (actually prime humans).

She was no more "shoehorned" in than QS and SW were. The retcon about them being Magneto's children wasn't revealed until like 20 years after they debuted. And regardless, Lorna's parentage is an established point by now, so there's no excuse for not including her, period.

[salarta]

As for Polaris not being with her kin on that cover, perhaps it's because she was basically shoehorned in as a relative due to having magnetic powers. It's like how Byrne tried to make Sandman and the Osborn's related because they have the same haircut, or when Earth X made The Beast, Moon Boy, and Wolverine all part of the same human offshoot group (actually prime humans).

Except no, Lorna's not "shoehorned" at all, especially since she was STARTED OUT as Magneto's daughter in the first place and it only changed because of a sloppy retcon. I addressed this over in a different thread about Axis, so here's that post:

Lorna was CREATED to be Magneto's daughter, before Wanda and Pietro were noted to be his children. Lorna NOT being his daughter IS the sloppy retcon.

And no, she's not "haphazardly inserted" because "she has magnetic powers." Her having magnetic powers was part of her VERY FIRST ISSUE revealing her as being Magneto's daughter at the moment her powers manifested.

By this logic, you may as well be saying that Spider-Man's "with great power comes great responsibility" motivation from Uncle Ben was haphazardly inserted. Such a statement is precisely as valid and accurate as what you're saying about Lorna being part of the family she was part of from the get-go before she was retconned out of it for no good reason.

Seriously, Wanda and Pietro have less of a legitimate reason to be Magneto's children given they were originally labeled children of The Whizzer and had that retconned. Yet I wouldn't say they needed to no longer be Magneto's children, because there's no good reason to do it, just like there's no good reason to not allow Lorna to regain what she had from the start.

Fact of the matter is, Lorna was not forced into the family, she was forced out of it. If you look at everything that happened to her from the "no longer Magneto's daughter" retcon to the early 90s, you see the damage done in suddenly and inexplicably making her not Magneto's daughter anymore for no apparent reason. Claremont increasingly treated her like a joke character that heroes and villains alike could beat down because without her family tie, all Claremont saw in her was "is girlfriend of Havok." Where did she START to get treated like an actual character deserving of respect after that "no longer Magneto's daughter" retcon? The very, very start, if I'm being completely honest, was the X-Factor of the 90s... where she was on the team with Pietro and had a brother-sister dynamic with him even before she regained her rightful status as part of the family. Even without being an official part of the family again, her potential as part of the family played a role in her starting to get treated with anything close to the respect she was given when she was last officially Magneto's daughter.

In addition, I'd like to note something very important: even Lorna getting to be part of the family again didn't come out of nowhere. The Twelve got things running again with Apocalypse noting that Magneto and Polaris were opposite magnetic poles, already noting a connection by powers. From there, she was brought onto Genosha and became one of Magneto's top lieutenants alongside Wanda and Pietro. When his powers started to wane, Lorna used an image inducer and pretended to be him to keep things going. And when Lorna was found in the wreckage of Genosha after the genocide, we had these pages from New X-Men #132 among it all, a year before Austen confirmed her as being Magneto's daughter in Uncanny X-Men #431.




Across several years, with different writers, Lorna demonstrated her value as a part of that family gradually before she officially regained her place within it. For something to be shoehorned, it would have to come out of nowhere, have little to no basis for happening. That fits the bill of her getting retconned out of the family to perfection. It does not fit the gradual, organic return of her being part of the family. Marvel had every right to snap her back into the family at any moment if they so chose, because it was the central focus of her entire introductory storyline, but they didn't.


With that, please excuse me if I seem extremely hostile. After the discussions and arguments I've been in concerning Lorna as part of the family, I've come to a point where certain words and phrases, like "shoehorn," are something of a red alert for me. My exposure to those words is often paired with the person that says them working from a foundation of "I think Lorna sucks, therefore she shouldn't be part of the family," and dealing with enough cases like that has conditioned them into loaded words regardless of the intent of the person using them. When even the base matter of Lorna returning to Earth from space is met with some old time hardcore readers saying things like "Lorna should stay in space to keep her away from books that matter," it doesn't exactly lead to good feelings. When things like that are said about characters like Wolverine, Cyclops, Storm, etc, at least those characters are given due respect by Marvel and a majority of other people for their history and qualities they have.

Things ARE improving for Lorna, I'd be misrepresenting things if I didn't admit that. She finally got her origin story told after going 40 years without one, something every character made around when she was and most of the ones made after her managed to get decades ago. She's finally getting to lead a team in her own right for the first time on All-New X-Factor as well. And she finally got her first playable appearance in a video game last October with Lego Marvel Superheroes. But she still has a long way to go, and what appears to be her exclusion from Axis when everything says she should be there, even if we pretended she wasn't part of the family at all and left it just at her stake in Genosha, proves this.