Thor's hammer vs The Mobius Chair

[big_adventure]

Shortly after shattering Stormbreaker, All-Father Thor was able to forcibly take back his portion of the Power Cosmic from Galactus. Is that something Odin could do?

Eh, Odin's never remotely be shown as capable of that, but on top of that, he's also always been shown as arrogant enough to not believe that he would need to. In issue 3, when Galactus tried to control Thor, and to take away all of the power cosmic, Thor said "nope, I'm not like other heralds, I'm not your flunky, you don't take crap away from me, and you sure as **** don't own me, I cooperate with you by choice, and I take from you if I want to." Galactus was pretty thrown back by Thor's response.

Then the scene you mention, in issue 4, when Thor attacks Galactus, clearly hurting him, and forcibly rips away some of (or some more of, or all of) an already amped-up Big G's power cosmic, this is something that clearly shocks and visibly hurts Galactus.

Oh, and it is explained later on, sort of confirming some of the other Old King Thor stuff, that Thor is the one who finally kills Galactus.

[Pendaran]

I am not claiming at all that Thor is operating at universe busting levels. With extreme effort, he held back a universe busting force for 14 seconds.

Yes, and that showing has no validity by board standards given the powers involved.

I went back and read the fight with Bill again. Thor briefly gives up the PC to show Bill that he's not Galactus' pawn. As Thor and Bill are getting ready to dance more (after Thor smashed Bill into a planet with, as stated above, extinction-level force, with a casual backhand), Galactus gets mad at Thor and tries to enforce control over him with the PC. Thor LOLNopes this, and actually does some damage to Big G.

And considering the Odin force as compared to Galactus, nothing about "and also a herald boost" should make that possible.

After the fight, in the next issue, Thor goes and takes power cosmic back from Galactus, against Galactus' will.

And considering how well beneath Galactus the Odin force has performed, that's a trash showing by board standards.

[Pendaran]

Eh, Odin's never remotely be shown as capable of that, but on top of that, he's also always been shown as arrogant enough to not believe that he would need to.

You are straight up in "just because he's never shown that he could do anything like that, doesn't mean he couldn't do that if he wanted to", that's not how anything works. Galactus as compared to Odin even just on a level of comparative performances of oomph has shown he operates on a scale well beyond the power of Odin's skyfathering about capacity. Someone with Odin's power doing stuff that straight up ignores that is no different than, you know, anything else happening that otherwise ignores what other previous established things.

Then the scene you mention, in issue 4, when Thor attacks Galactus, clearly hurting him, and forcibly rips away some of (or some more of, or all of) an already amped-up Big G's power cosmic, this is something that clearly shocks and visibly hurts Galactus.

Good for him, that doesn't make it a valid feat.

[big_adventure]

Pen, I get that you like challenging Thor feats sometimes, granted the dude has been all over the place over time, and there has been some pretty blind support for some of his stuff here and there. In this case, though, he's been directly stated as "All-father of Asgard" plus some level of Power Cosmic. Nobody ever states that the level or amount of power cosmic he has is the same as other heralds. It's just that he has enough power cosmic to enhance what he already is, as All Father Thor. He's already been explicitely presented as over other Herald level, given that he started as skyfather level. Hell, the REASON Big G is accepting a non-compliant Herald in Thor is because a) he wants that extra oomph with him and b) Thor doesn't give him a choice. He literally ripped power cosmic away from Galactus against the guy's will.

Basically, we see what he does. We have no reason to doubt it or downgrade it, because it's a different level of Thor than we've ever seen before. It's not like this is "regluar" Thor doing this to and with Galactus, it's a very recently amped version. And him ripping Power Cosmic away from Galactus can easily be explained by the fact that they had already established a herald bond. But other heralds aren't remotely powerful enough to do what Thor does to Galactus, and, on panel, it says that the power cosmic is part of what is fueling his current level.

In any case, it's relatively sure to be a short term powerup. Whenver Black Winter is over, Galactus is going to take back (or be given back) his powerup, and we won't ever have to worry about quantifying it again.

[Pendaran]

Pen, I get that you like challenging Thor feats sometimes, granted the dude has been all over the place over time, and there has been some pretty blind support for some of his stuff here and there.

By that standard, I get that you like championing Thor showings beyond what board standards will allow for such that there's had to be mod rulings, and you've offered some pretty blind support for his stuff here and there. This is an interesting path you want to embark down for opening that way. "You have no real argument, you're just biased against Thor showings because you're used to arguing against him". Interesting.

In this case, though, he's been directly stated as "All-father of Asgard" plus some level of Power Cosmic.

He made him a herald functionally. In fact having checked the comics, and there's a ton there I'm going to get back to on that, he specifically refers to him as his herald. Your argument is now "well we can ignore that to say he totally amped him up to the point that he can slow universal scale destructive forces by himself, even though the Odinpower would be nowhere sufficient for it, and the comics themselves make an entire plot arc of that Galactus needs to be powered up to be up to snuff to stop it, and that Galactus still referred to him as a herald. Still, the combination of these forces totally amped him to that point." While we're there, Galactus made him a herald, while himself still effed up, but no, he still sufficiently gave him enough force to combine with the odinpower to reach that point, is your statement.

It's just that he has enough power cosmic to enhance what he already is, as All Father Thor. He's already been explicitely presented as over other Herald level,

Deathstroke has been explicitly presented as being able to hit Flashes because he "uses 90% of his brain".

Thor, even without the power cosmic, by your own words, is messing around with Galactus in ways that the Odin force doesn't support for the comparative scales they operate on.

He's already been explicitely presented as over other Herald level, given that he started as skyfather level.

And the power of a herald would not thus take that to the point where he can now function on a universal scale, something far beyond skyfather level.

Basically, we see what he does.

We see him mess with Galactus in a way the Odinpower does not provide for when functioning off that alone, casting a big ol dubious light on lots of things as is. We see him then function on a universal scale his combined powers do not provide for based on their history to this point.

(Now, you could say "well it was possible because Galactus was still all screwed up to some degree", but I would have to think you wouldn't want to, because that would make a variety of things extra meaningless that you've been touting as "see how clearly they all come together to show this unquestionably by the standards of this board")

We have no reason to doubt it or downgrade it,

Sure we do, they're called, the standards for showings on this board when looking at the previous performances of both heralds and the odinpower.

because it's a different level of Thor than we've ever seen before.

Thor has had the odinpower before, and he's been amped beyond it before.

And him ripping Power Cosmic away from Galactus can easily be explained by the fact that they had already established a herald bond.

You want to say they have "a herald bond" but also want to say "he gave him wayyy more power cosmic than he gave heralds." That's not how words work. Also, when has a "herald bond" ever worked that way?

But other heralds aren't remotely powerful enough to do what Thor does to Galactus, and, on panel, it says that the power cosmic is part of what is fueling his current level.

Yes, and on panel Deathstroke can hit Flashes because he uses 90% of his brain. Your argument is a bunch of "it happened so it counts and any relevant previous performances of the forces involved do not" with a helping of "you can't actually show what I'm claiming didn't happen, so I don't have to show it myself" magical tiger repelling rock logic.

In any case, it's relatively sure to be a short term powerup. Whenver Black Winter is over, Galactus is going to take back (or be given back) his powerup, and we won't ever have to worry about quantifying it again.

Hey, don't sweat it, we don't have to worry about quantifying it now considering that if we're consistent with the way this board weighs showings, these ones are without meaning.

[The Arbiter]

Pen, I get that you like challenging Thor feats sometimes...

I visibly winced reading this. This is perhaps not the best way to argue a point.

For example, I freaking LOVE Thor. Despite that, I am often the guy people want to paint as a Thor hater. Inherent love (or hate) of a character does not (or should not) hold sway in a logic based argument that is within the guidelines of a forum's rules.

Debate the points, not the person is my feeling. More classy. ^_^

[Guy1]

I'm going to give this thread a lookover. Everyone take a breather.