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  1. #1
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Default What's your favorite version of Dick becoming Nightwing?

    There are so many options. Pre-COIE, Batman #408, Batman #416 (same events, very different emotional dynamic), Nightwing: Year One, etc.

    I still have to go for the the Pre-COIE version. Possibly because it was first. It was a good thing, it wasn't something Dick was forced to do. I haven't read all of the versions yet, though.

  2. #2
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Pre-COIE all the way. Because it was a Titans story, not a Batman story. And even though his conflict with Bruce was important, it was a realistic one with them both having difficulty adjusting and reconciling like adults at Donna's wedding.

    I've only read the first chapter of Nightwing: Year One once, and it was hot flaming garbage and I do not ever want to read the rest of it.

  3. #3
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I've only read the first chapter of Nightwing: Year One once, and it was hot flaming garbage and I do not ever want to read the rest of it.
    I've heard about it, but could just never bring myself to read it after reading a synopsis and just how "wrong" it was. And it saying Dick was 21 in the "present-day" from what I recall (saying he was 16 years old 5 years ago?). Trying to de-age him even back then. Not a fan of that. Though that's the least of my issues with the story, from what I know of it it.

  4. #4
    Incredible Member Rakiduam's Avatar
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    Pre-COIE transition is self reflection and growth, all the others are cheap uneseasary melodrama and angst, Nightwing: Year One is by far the worst.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakiduam View Post
    Pre-COIE transition is self reflection and growth, all the others are cheap uneseasary melodrama and angst, Nightwing: Year One is by far the worst.
    I feel like as soon as the transition was re-worked post-COIE, it really did set the wheels in motion for a very dysfunctional Batfamily. Not just the firing of Dick and 18 month estrangement. But also in the hiring of Jason (which really didn't make logical sense in the safety sense anyway, as was brought up in Batman #416). Bruce is calls him "Robin" and later says to Dick that he hired him because he was lonely, and it is just such an absolutely huge disservice to Jason for Bruce to do that. He wanted as a replacement to someone else. And this idea is later repeated by Alfred and tied to the idea that Jason was unworthy all along. Something I deeply dislike, even though I'm not a particular Jason fan. He did not deserve that.

    I also think that post-COIE, and especially this setup of Dick being fired, reignited the Dick-feels-like-he-doesn't-measure-up-to-Batman thing. It's something that was part of his mindset in early NTT. It made sense and worked for a 19 year old, I thought. But I felt he'd moved on and out-grown it. And he dragged back to that. And it's something that has repeated for decades now, without him ever being able to move past it permanently. And it's exacerbated by that (since NTT went down hill, but really more so a good bit later), DC has sort of deliberately kept him subordinate to Batman/Bruce. Never able to meet him as a equal. He was out of Batman's shadow and brought back in. Like I said, part of that is the decline the NTT as a powerhouse seller. And part of it is the changing role of Batman and his reworking as the "alpha" the biggie, the person that must dominate all around him (including other heroes), and have no equals, only inferiors (not consistent, but common).

    Anyway, I feel like the reworking of Dick's Nightwing origin and Jason's intro was harbinger of things to come. That they would be dysfunctional as a family from there on out. Part of it is hindsight, and really back-projecting, I know. You can see in "The Cheshire Contract" that Wolfman tried to backtrack and cast in a less unfavorable light. Make Batman less jerkish, and the dynamic better. But that didn't hold. When Tim, came some cracks were papered over and things weren't as bad between Bruce and Dick. And Dick and Tim had a great dynamic for years. In the early-to-mid-90s, they were doing pretty okay. But the late '90s started a downward spiral. And into the 2000s we went - Bruce ordered more and asked less. He trusted others less. He started treating his family as soldiers rather than family. He was a poor mentor to Cass in regards to her personal growth. He treated Steph and Tim horribly when Tim quit. And then it spreads to other members. Dick fired Tim just like he was fired (and, in bittersweet fashion, what he said about Tim as his peer was what Dick always wanted to hear from Bruce, but not what Tim wanted). And the dynamics between the family members have never had a time since the late '90s when they were all good with each other. Part of that is increasing number of members, of course. But part of it for the melodrama and angst, like you said. You begin to wonder why they ever keep in contact and see the family as a destructive force for the characters (as they each treat others horribly for the sake drama). And the very unhealthiness of their relationships has become a defining trait for many fans.

    I feel like melodrama for one story is one thing (though I don't like characters acting OOC to facilitate it), but as a never-ending norm, it's just tedious and tiring.

  6. #6
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    in Teen Titans The Judas Contract story
    I created a thread about Dick Grayson/Nightwing and Koriand'r/Starfire.
    It is to acknowledge and honor their iconic and popular relationship.
    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/teen-...rfire-1975639/

    I created a fan page about Peter Parker/Spider-Man and Mary Jane Watson.
    This page is for all the Spider-Marriage fans.
    http://www.facebook.com/SpiderManMaryJane/

  7. #7
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Not fired obviously
    As for the how and why growing up is enough, and maybe realizing going pantsless is a bad idea.
    Heck, I don't even think it's necessary for him to leave Gotham unless he's in college at that time or if after college he got a job in a different city. The main reason he leaves usually is that Batman is too overbearing, but if he's not and Dick got a job in Gotham, he can simply live in an apartment downtown.

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Not fired obviously
    As for the how and why growing up is enough, and maybe realizing going pantsless is a bad idea.
    Heck, I don't even think it's necessary for him to leave Gotham unless he's in college at that time or if after college he got a job in a different city. The main reason he leaves usually is that Batman is too overbearing, but if he's not and Dick got a job in Gotham, he can simply live in an apartment downtown.
    It is a bit of double standard, considering how many women go pantless. It reallly bugs me how much that bugs people and how insulting and derisive they are over Dick doing the same, especially in the past when it was even more common. I also think that Robin has already finished the journey, that Robin grew up with Dick instead of Dick growing out of it, in the pre-Nightwing, pre-COIE days and that the transition of Nightwing was actually unnecessary for Dick's sake (needed to be done to bring in Jason, though). But Robin was already thought of, in-universe, as an adult and capable hero, IMO. Still, I think framing his transition to Nightwing as a final step was well-executed and a satisfying story, even if I don't think it was actually needed for his sake.

    I do think he needs to leave Gotham. Gotham will always be "Batman's city" - Nightwing will always be an "also ran" or "second banana" there (particularly from a fan or pop-culture perspective) as long as Batman is active. It's much worse if he actually operates out of Batman's headquarters, though. For the record, I feel similarly about Black Lightning not operating out of Metropolis (along with bitterness about how Superman's relationship to Suicide Slum was portrayed), and they don't even have the former-sidekick issues.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 03-23-2020 at 04:55 AM.

  9. #9
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    My favourite is the "The Batman Adventures: The Lost Years" that's the version for the DCAU.

  10. #10
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    It is a bit of double standard, considering how many women go pantless. It reallly bugs me how much that bugs people and how insulting and derisive they are over Dick doing the same, especially in the past when it was even more common. I also think that Robin has already finished the journey, that Robin grew up with Dick instead of Dick growing out of it, in the pre-Nightwing, pre-COIE days and that the transition of Nightwing was actually unnecessary for Dick's sake (needed to be done to bring in Jason, though). But Robin was already thought of, in-universe, as an adult and capable hero, IMO. Still, I think framing his transition to Nightwing as a final step was well-executed and a satisfying story, even if I don't think it was actually needed for his sake.

    I do think he needs to leave Gotham. Gotham will always be "Batman's city" - Nightwing will always be an "also ran" or "second banana" there (particularly from a fan or pop-culture perspective) as long as Batman is active. It's much worse if he actually operates out of Batman's headquarters, though. For the record, I feel similarly about Black Lightning not operating out of Metropolis (along with bitterness about how Superman's relationship to Suicide Slum was portrayed), and they don't even have the former-sidekick issues.
    Female Batfam members wear pants except for Bat-girl, but she and Robin were supposed to be a kid, so within the Batfam it's not a matter of sexism but the image of childhood.

    The city or image problem is DC's problem. I don't care because they'll do it anyway regardless if he has his own city or not, whether he's a superhero or secret agent. So I'm not gonna even think about it and just go with personal preference or what makes sense to me.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Female Batfam members wear pants except for Bat-girl, but she and Robin were supposed to be a kid, so within the Batfam it's not a matter of sexism but the image of childhood.
    Huntress had costume without pants. But the Robin costume was overdue for a redesign, and there were iirc writers and artists pushing for that since at least the 70s.

  12. #12
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Huntress had costume without pants. But the Robin costume was overdue for a redesign, and there were iirc writers and artists pushing for that since at least the 70s.
    I wanted to say that's just Jim Lee being horny and shouldn't count but then I remember the first one, the 80s to the 90s one

    Ah well they all end up with pants anyway

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    I wanted to say that's just Jim Lee being horny and shouldn't count but then I remember the first one, the 80s to the 90s one
    In Birds of prey that costume was only used in Gail Simones Run, and was even brought back in her second run.

  14. #14
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Gotta go with the original NTT pre-Crisis origin for Nightwing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    My favourite is the "The Batman Adventures: The Lost Years" that's the version for the DCAU.
    Sounds like a tie-in comic. Never read it, what happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Female Batfam members wear pants except for Bat-girl, but she and Robin were supposed to be a kid, so within the Batfam it's not a matter of sexism but the image of childhood.
    For me it's that (childhood) and also the fact that I don't want any powerless vigilantes running around without proper gear, regardless of age or gender. Someone like Wonder Woman or Vartox (who used to wear less than Diana does now) is fine; they're super human and nearly indestructible. Robin however, is a powerless 14 year old kid who should not be fighting murderers in a pair of briefs.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

    Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow!

    Bridge Four!

  15. #15
    Astonishing Member K7P5V's Avatar
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    Majority rules, NTT is best:

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