Legion of Super-Heroes #5 - Discussion and Spoiler Thread

[Superlad93]

Was thinking about the basic set up for Jon and the Legion, and it's honestly an evocative little set up.

Basically the Legion wants to learn from Jon, and at the same time have their era teach and enlighten Jon in perpetration for being Superman. When you sort of break that down you get the idea of our young hero suddenly being thrust into the role of a teacher and student. That's an interesting dynamic to balance. Being responsible for the development of an oncoming generation while you yourself are still not even close to figuring it out.

I honestly had a pretty, I guess, personal reaction to this idea. I'm 26, so this kind of got me in my little millennial heart. Like, I have the responsibility of an adult, and the responsibility to set an example for the oncoming generation, but I'm close enough to that generation that I'm learning alongside them in a lot of cases. It's so strange to articulate, but this set up kind of hits that cord oddly enough. Like, when Jon comes out of the orientation with the "sh!t just got real" and then goes "I never even thought about being--" (obviously getting ready to say "Superman") I vibed that in my soul, man.

[manwhohaseverything]

Supersons as concept exists, from the get go because of not only their rivalry with each other, but also their father. Jon had been constantly comparing himself to his dad and had been thinking about being superman. So, i don't understand how that line works. if the blank space is meant to be filled with superman.

[Superlad93]

Jon had been constantly comparing himself to his dad and had been thinking about being superman. So, i don't understand how that line works. if the blank space is meant to be filled with superman.

You're kind of missing my main overall point. But in regards to this one that you've zeroed in on, Jon at 10 or 11 day dreaming about being Superman one day is a whole lot different from Jon at 17 being told that it's going to happen, and that an incalculable number of lives and reality itself will hinge on him being the best version of himself. One of those situations makes the whole thing very, very real. It's like dreaming of being a solder or firefighter when you're 10, and then understating the full gravity of both those jobs when you're just leaving high school. So when he says that he never even thought about it he means in the sense of it being a real thing. Plus, in the specific context of his world, he likely never even considered a world where his dad THE Superman who would ultimately take care of all of the biggest stuff like he always has.

[manwhohaseverything]

You're kind of missing my main overall point. But in regards to this one that you've zeroed in on, Jon at 10 or 11 day dreaming about being Superman one day is a whole lot different from Jon at 17 being told that it's going to happen, and that an incalculable number of lives and reality itself will hinge on him being the best version of himself. One of those situations makes the whole thing very, very real. It's like dreaming of being a solder or firefighter when you're 10, and then understating the full gravity of both those jobs when you're just leaving high school. So when he says that he never even thought about it he means in the sense of it being a real thing. Plus, in the specific context of his world, he likely never even considered a world where his dad THE Superman who would ultimately take care of all of the biggest stuff like he always has.

Jon went to space because of his responsibility and pressure on him(atleast, that was what bendis said) . Wasn't his entire journey and meetings with lobo.. Etc about jon being a man?Furthermore, damian even commented on jon being a superman, i believe. So, him saying he never even thought of it needs more explanation,is all i am saying. It could be like jon having a performance anxiety suddenly being called of the bench. It could be not, we will see.

[Superlad93]

Wasn't his entire journey and meetings with lobo.. Etc about jon being a man?

Yes, and it was about self confidence, but it's all one story and it's not done. The space section was about making mistakes, and the Earth-3 section was about self reliance, but neither end with Jon doing any form of declaring that he's now Superman. As Bendis said, "he's not fully cooked yet." Legion is the last leg of the journey from Superboy to Superman for Jon, and he just reached the moment where responsibility beyond one's self is thrust upon him (in contrast to Earth-3 which was being responsible for one's self). That's true mark of adulthood. The ability to think critically and take care of yourself is the mark adolescences.

Furthermore, damian even commented on jon being a superman, i believe.

Yes, Damian says "you're almost Superman" and Jon replies "ha! Not yet". That's in direct contrast to Lobo's words in issue 7. Lobo tells Jon that there's no certificate to being a man, and that you are one when you say you are. By Jon's own admonition to Damian in issue 16, he hasn't chosen to be That Guy yet. The implication being that he still can't see himself as that guy yet, thus the line still holds weight. It's not something that was real to him till just now. Now he's gotta get himself to a point where he is that guy, and that's the journey.

[Digifiend]

Though, it is kind of funny that the first Doctor Fate's real first name is Kent.

The Young Justice cartoon took advantage of that. Just after Kent Nelson died, Miss Martian gave Superboy the name Conner. Needing a surname, they go with Kent, after Doctor Fate. He didn't know Clark's secret identity yet, so he couldn't name himself after Superman.

[Frontier]

Was thinking about the basic set up for Jon and the Legion, and it's honestly an evocative little set up.

Basically the Legion wants to learn from Jon, and at the same time have their era teach and enlighten Jon in perpetration for being Superman. When you sort of break that down you get the idea of our young hero suddenly being thrust into the role of a teacher and student. That's an interesting dynamic to balance. Being responsible for the development of an oncoming generation while you yourself are still not even close to figuring it out.

I honestly had a pretty, I guess, personal reaction to this idea. I'm 26, so this kind of got me in my little millennial heart. Like, I have the responsibility of an adult, and the responsibility to set an example for the oncoming generation, but I'm close enough to that generation that I'm learning alongside them in a lot of cases. It's so strange to articulate, but this set up kind of hits that cord oddly enough. Like, when Jon comes out of the orientation with the "sh!t just got real" and then goes "I never even thought about being--" (obviously getting ready to say "Superman") I vibed that in my soul, man.

It kind of amazes me how this mirror's Clark's role as Superboy in the Legion.

[Superlad93]

It kind of amazes me how this mirror's Clark's role as Superboy in the Legion.

In the general sense, sure: Superboy becomes Superman after teaming up with the Legion, but nothing really beyond that general idea, I find.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Clark joining the Legion is usually because he's lonely being the only super kid around, and the Legion think it would be neat to have Superboy as a part-time member. There is no sense of urgency or consequence in their interaction on this front similar to the new version. Even the idea of a Superboy living in the future for a time is a departure and distinction.

In most stories with the Legion, Clark is a peer/classmate to kids who already know how to be heroes. I don't recall them looking to Clark as a mentor in any greater sense than they would look to whomever the leader of the team was at the time.

[Frontier]

In the general sense, sure: Superboy becomes Superman after teaming up with the Legion, but nothing really beyond that general idea, I find.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Clark joining the Legion is usually because he's lonely being the only super kid around, and the Legion think it would be neat to have Superboy as a part-time member. There is no sense of urgency or consequence in their interaction on this front similar to the new version. Even the idea of a Superboy living in the future for a time is a departure and distinction.

In most stories with the Legion, Clark is a peer/classmate to kids who already know how to be heroes. I don't recall them looking to Clark as a mentor in any greater sense than they would look to whomever the leader of the team was at the time.

I think there was still the sense that they could learn from a younger Clark and he could have a role in shaping a younger Legion when they take him into the future and let him join with the team. Or at least that's how it's been re-contexualized when updating the origin past the Silver Age.

[Superlad93]

I think there was still the sense that they could learn from a younger Clark and he could have a role in shaping a younger Legion when they take him into the future and let him join with the team. Or at least that's how it's been re-contexualized when updating the origin past the Silver Age.

Even if that's how it's been re-contextualized (and I don't think that's the case at all) it's an anecdotal after thought at the very best. If there's any sense that they are comparable in this regard, it's only in a general one.

One of the most recent takes on Clark and the Legion (Johns) is far more thematically comparable to Wendy in Neverland. And in that recent version Clark with the Legion 100% was always framed as the place where he could go to be himself during a time when he was feeling particularly alien. It was an escape analogues to an imaginary world for a kid who was in a rough spot. And on the Legion's part, they were just nice enough to give him that (much to Brainiac 5's chagrin) as a thank you for inspiring them.

I genuinely think you're reaching here.

[Sacred Knight]

It kind of amazes me how this mirror's Clark's role as Superboy in the Legion.

Well, the goal seems to be to Clark-ify him, not unlike what Johns did once upon a time with Conner, so mirroring takes shouldn't be surprising going forward. Take what Clark did, and try to apply it to another character to make him the "cool" Superman. There's some of its own nuance to it all I'll grant, sure. But still the general idea is a copy. And even worse at the actual expense of Superman. I mean at least Johns just had Conner copy steps. Bendis is retroactively removing things from Superman to re-apply to Jon to create the illusion in this ridiculous continuity that Jon did it first. A friend put it best imo recently, basically Bendis is creating his own Ultimate Superman here. To me that seems to be a good descriptor of what this is all leading to, if this part of the original 5G initiative is still a go. And hey, that would be fine if it were in its own verse like he did for Marvel. Instead he's chosen to do it in the main verse while evolving its real Superman into something that while possibly new, is so far removed from what Superman is that its not positive evolution.

[Frontier]

Even if that's how it's been re-contextualized (and I don't think that's the case at all) it's an anecdotal after thought at the very best. If there's any sense that they are comparable in this regard, it's only in a general one.

One of the most recent takes on Clark and the Legion (Johns) is far more thematically comparable to Wendy in Neverland. And in that recent version Clark with the Legion 100% was always framed as the place where he could go to be himself during a time when he was feeling particularly alien. It was an escape analogues to an imaginary world for a kid who was in a rough spot. And on the Legion's part, they were just nice enough to give him that (much to Brainiac 5's chagrin) as a thank you for inspiring them.

I genuinely think you're reaching here.

I'd have to re-read the arc but I also recall a sense of what the Legion learned from having Clark there after he came back as his adult self, and that was also an element in a mini Levitz did around the time Johns brought the Legion back chronicling Superboy with the early Legion.

It wasn't necessarily a reasoning that was at the forefront of the dynamic, but I think it's one you could very easily read into it along with the many other ways you could read Clark's time with the Legion.

[Superlad93]

I'd have to re-read the arc but I also recall a sense of what the Legion learned from having Clark there after he came back as his adult self, and that was also an element in a mini Levitz did around the time Johns brought the Legion back chronicling Superboy with the early Legion.

Even if you find an instance of this, it's largely a contained anecdote rather than the norm. Similarly, due to the nature of comics, one can find contained anecdotes on just about anything, but that doesn't make them the norm. The prevailing modern re-contextualization of Clark and the Legion is Johns' take where the point is that they were just his friends and his place to feel comfortable with himself.

It wasn't necessarily a reasoning that was at the forefront of the dynamic, but I think it's one you could very easily read into it along with the many other ways you could read Clark's time with the Legion.

That's something left up to interpretation, sure, and it's fine if that's how you or anyone else personally want to read it, but it's never emboldened, reinforced, made the norm, or made text as unambiguously as this--if at all.

But I'm not sitting here acting like there aren't very deliberate parallels and re-imaginings. Of course there are. Bendis, in his own words, hasn't made that a secret at all.

[Korath]

Was thinking about the basic set up for Jon and the Legion, and it's honestly an evocative little set up.

Basically the Legion wants to learn from Jon, and at the same time have their era teach and enlighten Jon in perpetration for being Superman. When you sort of break that down you get the idea of our young hero suddenly being thrust into the role of a teacher and student. That's an interesting dynamic to balance. Being responsible for the development of an oncoming generation while you yourself are still not even close to figuring it out.

I honestly had a pretty, I guess, personal reaction to this idea. I'm 26, so this kind of got me in my little millennial heart. Like, I have the responsibility of an adult, and the responsibility to set an example for the oncoming generation, but I'm close enough to that generation that I'm learning alongside them in a lot of cases. It's so strange to articulate, but this set up kind of hits that cord oddly enough. Like, when Jon comes out of the orientation with the "sh!t just got real" and then goes "I never even thought about being--" (obviously getting ready to say "Superman") I vibed that in my soul, man.

I feel you here. I'm 28 and it's still kind of that awkward place, were I'm too old to be one of the kids/teenagers. And too young to be already a fully-fledged adult, with the whole set of responsabilities. That's perhaps why this story resonates with me.

[Superlad93]

I feel you here. I'm 28 and it's still kind of that awkward place, were I'm too old to be one of the kids/teenagers. And too young to be already a fully-fledged adult, with the whole set of responsabilities. That's perhaps why this story resonates with me.

Glad to hear someone else was on that same wavelength.

And yesterday I realized that Rose Forest seems to represent the older generation if not specifically generation X, and works as something of an insert (Bendis is gen X) to a degree. She's jaded and tired of the perpetual one step forward but two steps back of society. And her moment of realization is understanding that she has to put all of her energy into building up this next generation to make sure they are better than those before them,but she's not hesitant to call them on their BS (as seen in issue 2 when she calls them out).

Legion of Super-Heroes: Millennium sharpens it's point a bit more when re read in this context, and Rose's immortality seems to be there to articulate the feeling of maybe being of gen X and finding yourself a bit jaded with what seems like multiple life times on this crazy world.