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  1. #376
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    I've read comics with Kitty for years under those situation and it wasn't until now that she began crippling people. No X-men did, short of people like Wolverine and that made him, and anyone else, more of a radical who went over the line not the status quo for X-men in combat. X-men didn't do anything like this in Operation: Zero Tolerance and he was in worse positions then either of them in Marauders.

    Edit: It's not like the X-men were in any less danger being hunted by Sentinels or Bastion or the rogues gallery that currently sits in the Quiet Council.
    With that many children being at risk, and with how many people were being sent to the gulags, I can't say I blame Kitty for that. They've grown more ruthless over the years maybe, but I can't really blame them after countless deaths, attempts at genocide and such. Also, the X-Men not being exactly shy when it comes to violence has been a thing since at least Decimation and, again, it was a response that we can expect.

    Back on the topic at hand, by the point of view of the Council, Kitty's action were justified. She was protecting innocents and her powerless teammates when she attacked the human soldiers.

  2. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    With that many children being at risk, and with how many people were being sent to the gulags, I can't say I blame Kitty for that. They've grown more ruthless over the years maybe, but I can't really blame them after countless deaths, attempts at genocide and such. Also, the X-Men not being exactly shy when it comes to violence has been a thing since at least Decimation and, again, it was a response that we can expect.
    Children have been at risk since the 60's on countless teams, Xavier himself recruits them at early age to be child soldiers. Again, do you know anything about what Bastian was doing in Operation: Zero Tolerance or what other villains were doing to them once captured?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation:_Zero_Tolerance

    That's the basics of what Iceman had to face back in those conditions.

    Them not being in gulag isn't a sign that they're kept nice and comfy when a villain has them in their crutches.

    It really isn't, the writers choosing to make them more brutal isn't proof that it was "necessary." Life before Decimation had massive obstacles that they faced without turning into Jack Bauer.

    Back on the topic at hand, by the point of view of the Council, Kitty's action were justified. She was protecting innocents and her powerless teammates when she attacked the human soldiers.
    Of course the Council would be ok with this, the X-men aren't heroes any longer. They're not right about everything they do. That's just being an X-man, situations like that come with being a super-hero. When Kitty was a barely trained student she had to survive a demon invading the X-Mansion all by herself, reminiscent of "Alien."

    You do know she can incapacitate people without doing that, right? That's why Kitty's phasing is incredibly dangerous. They can't hurt her but she can hurt them by phasing through their heads to knock them out. She's not supposed to be Wolverine.
    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 03-28-2020 at 03:05 AM.

  3. #378
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Children have been at risk since the 60's on countless teams, Xavier himself recruits them at early age to be child soldiers. Again, do you know anything about what Bastian was doing in Operation: Zero Tolerance or what other villains were doing to them once captured?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation:_Zero_Tolerance

    That's the basics of what Iceman had to face back in those conditions.

    Them not being in gulag isn't a sign that they're kept nice and comfy when a villain has them in their crutches.

    It really isn't, the writers choosing to make them more brutal isn't proof that it was "necessary." Life before Decimation had massive obstacles that they faced without turning into Jack Bauer.



    Of course the Council would be ok with this, the X-men aren't heroes any longer. They're not right about everything they do. That's just being an X-man, situations like that come with being a super-hero. When Kitty was a barely trained student she had to survive a demon invading the X-Mansion all by herself, reminiscent of "Alien."

    You do know she can incapacitate people without doing that, right? That's why Kitty's phasing is incredibly dangerous. They can't hurt her but she can hurt them by phasing through their heads to knock them out. She's not supposed to be Wolverine.
    I don't understand your point about Zero Tolerance. Bad stuff has happened to the X-Men before, and that's what has probably radicalized them more than in the past.

    In Russia children were being shot at and Storm and Bobby were about to die. I don't think Kitty was going to have a whole philosophical debate about how she should act when that many people were about to die. Also, she was essentially alone in that situation so she unleashed before harm was done. If all, it was a more realistic take on a deadly situation against a whole army of soldiers with tanks and depowering tech. Who where shooting point blank at kids and Kitty herself.


    Also, all of this is what we meant in the other thread about holding the X-Men to a higher standard. If you had Sue having the whole Future Foundation kids being shot at, she would have completely lost control and everyone would be ok with because she's a mUM. But you expect mutants to be gentle and kind after all they've gone through because they need to be heroes or poor humans will feel discriminated.
    Last edited by Veitha; 03-28-2020 at 03:16 AM.

  4. #379
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    On subsequent re-readings...

    I just LOVE how saturated Curiel's colours are on this book.
    The "double entendre" are sexy. And John Greycrow is a HAWTTNESS!!!
    Kwannon really needs a new costume...the thonkini is tired and dated but, just as with MG's green mini dress, I don't see the editors doing away with it any time soon...pity.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  5. #380
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Veitha;4910061]
    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post

    Kitty's encounter with the Russians was her protecting her powerless teammates and children from armed soldiers. They were shooting at them with real guns, not energy weapons or stun weapons. They could have made a lot of victims and they were also sending them to gulags. Her reaction was appropriate to the threat. If it was Logan there, he'd be cutting off limbs left and right.

    I do agree that Bobby did too much instead. The cutting off the arm was overkill and probably the Council should have investigated. But probably Emma was quite about it and told Bishop to do the same. That's something I could see Emma doing.
    Or more than likely, the QC overlooked it because of what the villains did to Kate. And Bobby's (over) reaction was quite understandable and excusable under the circumstances.

    I need an entire issue dealing with Sebastian in the QC's Circle of Judgement and his ultimate punishment.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  6. #381
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    How many of you think a book focusing on bad mutants will last long? I think this is a bad concept.

  7. #382

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    Quote Originally Posted by ericng View Post
    How many of you think a book focusing on bad mutants will last long? I think this is a bad concept.
    Hopefully 190 issues.


  8. #383
    Fantastic Member Stormultt Divine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericng View Post
    How many of you think a book focusing on bad mutants will last long? I think this is a bad concept.
    With the right stories this could have a very long run, its interesting and fun.

  9. #384
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Even with an exciting premise and such interesting characters, it does have a possible expiration date...for how long do you write a book about the rehabilitation of bad mutants without them actually being rehabilitated/or not?
    How long can you actually stretch the premise out without it falling into Claremont-trope tedium?

    Hopefully a very, very, very long time.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  10. #385
    Mighty Member Frobisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Even with an exciting premise and such interesting characters, it does have a possible expiration date...for how long do you write a book about the rehabilitation of bad mutants without them actually being rehabilitated/or not?
    How long can you actually stretch the premise out without it falling into Claremont-trope tedium?

    Hopefully a very, very, very long time.
    They can cycle people in and out of the team to keep it fresh. As long as the writing stays this good anyway!

  11. #386
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frobisher View Post
    They can cycle people in and out of the team to keep it fresh. As long as the writing stays this good anyway!
    Yeah It can work It they do it like Thunderbolts or Suicide Squad, making slight changes in the cast to showcase other difficult mutants.

    Luke Cage Thunderbolts was kinda amazing and it did that with prisoners from the Raft prison.

  12. #387
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    [QUOTE=Veitha;4910061]
    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post

    Kitty's encounter with the Russians was her protecting her powerless teammates and children from armed soldiers. They were shooting at them with real guns, not energy weapons or stun weapons. They could have made a lot of victims and they were also sending them to gulags. Her reaction was appropriate to the threat. If it was Logan there, he'd be cutting off limbs left and right.

    I do agree that Bobby did too much instead. The cutting off the arm was overkill and probably the Council should have investigated. But probably Emma was quite about it and told Bishop to do the same. That's something I could see Emma doing.
    Havok was wounded in that explosion that wounded Kurt as well and both were in vulnerable positions at the hands of the thugs. One can make the argument that Alex was defending both himself and an unconscious and defenseless Kurt. The same thing that Kate and Bobby have have done in the past and as some have said they were as gruesome in their actions as as he was. Only difference is that Alex was literally not in his right mind, what was Kate and Bobby's excuse?

    Also why would Bishop do anything Emma says? If he felt he needed to bring Bobby's actions to the QC he would/should, Emma has no power or authority to tell him to do anything and he certainly is under no obligation to listen or do it. More likely its just the writers doing their own thing for the story they want to tell. Duggan showed a angry Iceman wanting vengeance and suffering no consequences while Wells showed a confused/disoriented Havok defending both himself and Kurt and facing consequences from the QC for his actions.

  13. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Even with an exciting premise and such interesting characters, it does have a possible expiration date...for how long do you write a book about the rehabilitation of bad mutants without them actually being rehabilitated/or not?
    How long can you actually stretch the premise out without it falling into Claremont-trope tedium?

    Hopefully a very, very, very long time.
    On the up side, there are a *lot* of 'bad mutants' in need of some redemption out there. Like all the rest of those ex-Marauders, and the Nasty Boys, and a bunch of Acolytes and MLF'rs and Brotherhood of Evil Mutant types.

    I'd *love* a lineup that includes folks like Frenzy and Vertigo and Unuscione and Tempo and Dragoness and Phantazia, oh, I dunno, some token dude...

    As an idea, it's definitely got legs.

  14. #389
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frobisher View Post
    They can cycle people in and out of the team to keep it fresh. As long as the writing stays this good anyway!
    Oh, most definitely and I hope they do introduce new, different characters from time to time...just to keep it fresh.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  15. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    True, and we know the Moira book is coming once Hickman feels it is time. Ol' girl is planning her moves and we're not ready!
    Honestly what moves does Moira have to make, she has isolated herself from all but Xavier and Magneto and she has no other allies. As Krakoa currently sits what does Moira bring to the table? All her knowledge from her past lives means nothing considering this is an all new timeline and events are playing out differently from the previous nine. Her mutant power is actually a hindrance because if used all that she created with Charles and Erik goes away and she may not get another chance.

    It seems to me that basically it comes down to ego and arrogance, while some readers put those labels on Xavier and Magneto I put it on Moira. She is the one that is using and manipulating them, she is the one keeping information from them, she orchestrated the births of Legion and Proteus to use as tools in her agenda. If anyone else was doing all this manipulation they would be castigated, hell Xavier and Hank have been called out for doing far less. Yet Moira's getting all this praise for using people as chess pieces and Xavier and Magneto are getting called arrogant for not blindly following everything Moira says.

    All Moira provided was info, Xavier had Magneto did all the heavy lifting; mostly Charles. So Moira can try to make a power play, try to bring Apocalypse or "Logan" to her side but most likely all that would do is cause a civil war on Krakoa. And who's to say that she would get any support, after all she is just as guilty of lies and manipulations as Charles and Erik are. Maybe more so since she is shown to be using them.

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