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  1. #451
    Libre. People Of The Earth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SchismOfMadroces View Post
    Snowbird was killed by man-made weaponry, and there's plenty of material to support her godhood.
    I never questionned Snowbird' divine status though, countrary to Storm she wasn't born human, only half-human half-god like Hercules for example, and she's been capable to transcend the realm of death as well. She's not a goddess in name, countrary to Storm.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

  2. #452
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Again, I'm not going to write essays about this.

    I've told you why Kitty was brought to do that in Russia. She was against an army of people with power dampening tech threatening to kill or send children to gulags. You can be trained how much you want but if she went soft on them and they depowered herz then they'd all been dead.

    She later maimed a Lady Deathstriker gurl i.e. a Cyborg; Bobby wasn't going to kill them, he made a whole speech about it; Havok was clearly about to kill them and was physically stopped while doing so. He was there because of that crazy talk behavior and because he was about to murder those guys, like Nightcrawler said during the meeting. The killing is illegal, that was the whole point of Havok being there and the speech made by Bobby.

    Again, highly likely that Iceman wasn't reported to the Council by neither Emma or Bishop. Havok was surely reported by Nightcrawler. Kitty was allowed to use extreme force since it was an extreme situation (see X-Force or Orchis or Mystique being allowed to kill) so it wasn't a big deal to the eyes of the Council.

    No inconsistency.

  3. #453
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    https://abload.de/image.php?img=18xwklc.jpg

    Here she's attacking Russians and crippling them with ordinary guns, she's a super-hero dodging bullets is what they do. Ordinary soldiers are defenceless against her. It's not like it's the X-men haven't fought anti-mutant technology before, of course, but that's not an excuse to do anything short of killing them.

    It happening on paper isn't a good reason to assume everything Kitty does is correct, you can make judgements on what characters do. She's not right because she's Kitty Pryde she's got to be correct because she makes good arguments for how she got to her decision.

    That sort of danger and risk is not unique in X-men comics as you think. They're still not supposed to cripple people.



    Bits here and there. You can be violent without crippling people or killing them in comic books, the X-men are experts at this. They have options we can only dream about having in a combat situation. They don't go straight for the kill at the first sign of violence, they do it into proportion to the danger involved and that they're not supposed to be blood thirty psychopaths. They're supposed to be the X-men, not the Brotherhood.



    They're the Avengers, not a bunch of human soldiers and she's got the power to kill or cripple many of them but she's hasn't, has she? Since when has Krakoa hold anyone accountable for their actions? Unless you're Sabretooth they allow you to harm people as much as you want. Being a mother isn't an excuse and she hasn't destroyed people like the current X-men are doing and give her children were at risk they're lucky they didn't have casualties for angering her with their stupidity.

    You meant the X-men, right?



    You say that like Kitty isn't powerful herself. She may not be on Sue's level, but she's a tough opponent against a bunch of random human soldiers. Any super-hero worth their salt would take them out in five seconds flat without crippling anyone. In the real world this wouldn't work like that; except this is the world of comic books. Physics as we know it don't apply. It's why Batman hasn't crippled or killed thousands of ordinary people cleaning up Gotham.



    Sounds like a regular day at the office for Kitty Pryde. She doesn't need force fields, any weapons they have go right through her. They can't touch her. Got any scans of the depowering tech? That's an edge but that's small scale against what the X-men typically face when they have to get lethal and even then they're not supposed to do that, outside of members who are known for being brutal - like Psylocke and Wolverine. Read Operation: Zero Tolerance.



    Maybe you don't know Kitty as much as you think, they have very similar powers.
    In the scan you posted she had to use the gun to get rid of the guys exactly because she doesn't have powers similar to Vision. She doesn't manipulate her own density, that's Ultimate Kitty Pryde. Please don't make me take the receipts on Kitty's powers and feats, we're not on Comicvine.

    The depowering tech took down two Omega Level mutants. It was energy based and it's been shown to work without needing skin to skin contact (see Armor in New Mutants). Also, it's been shown to be dangerous enough to alarm the Council.

    Fact is: she was not in an easy situation. Power dampening tech, teammates down, and she couldn't even use the gates to escape or ask for backup. She didn't even know if she could be resurrected had she been killed. Plus the freaking children.

  4. #454
    Fantastic Member SchismOfMadroces's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    I never questionned Snowbird' divine status though, countrary to Storm she wasn't born human, only half-human half-god like Hercules for example, and she's been capable to transcend the realm of death as well. She's not a goddess in name, countrary to Storm.
    You did say that vulnerability to man-made weaponry isn't god-material. Snowbird, whom you admit is a god, shows that this isn't the case.

    Divine forebears also aren't a requisite for divinity. Loki, for example, is very much a god, but his parents are just Jotuns. Granted, Jotuns are mythological beings, but I'd certainly not call them gods.

  5. #455
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    I don't understand A) what's wrong with Storm as a goddess which has also been canonically stated on paper B) how being vulnerable to guns is a discriminant in deciding if one's a god or not.

    Aren't fairies vulnerable to iron? And Asgardians were killed en masse by D-List villains during Siege.

  6. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Again, I'm not going to write essays about this.

    I've told you why Kitty was brought to do that in Russia. She was against an army of people with power dampening tech threatening to kill or send children to gulags. You can be trained how much you want but if she went soft on them and they depowered herz then they'd all been dead.

    She later maimed a Lady Deathstriker gurl i.e. a Cyborg;
    Those are extenuating circumstances at best, she could have brought that up in front of the Council and be dismissed eventually as a result.
    It doesn't justify her not being submitted to said judgment altogether.
    Again, Havok too had extenuating circumstances and he was confronted by the Council regardless of those.

    And I wasn't referring to Russia alone, Pryde has been maiming people in almost every mission with the Marauders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Bobby wasn't going to kill them, he made a whole speech about it;
    He was going to kill them, Bishop chiming in prevented that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Havok was clearly about to kill them and was physically stopped while doing so. He was there because of that crazy talk behavior and because he was about to murder those guys, like Nightcrawler said during the meeting.
    Cyclops asked why his brother was part of that judgment and Jean's answer was that "he sent sapiens to the hospital with permanent injuries".
    He almost killed them as a result, true, but that's not why he was being judged, otherwise X-Force would be also there, same with other characters in New Mutants who "almost killed" sapiens as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    The killing is illegal, that was the whole point of Havok being there and the speech made by Bobby.
    As I said, Bobby stopped only because of Bishop' intervention, but his initial intent was to kill those men.
    That's no different from what Havok experienced, only Bishop didn't have to get physical to make Bobby stop, and even then, he decided to cripple those men anyway.
    That's why he should have been part of that judgment, same with Pryde and same with Gorgon. That they would be cleared of all charges for the reasons you brought up is irrelevant regarding them being put to the scrutiny of judgment by the Council.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Again, highly likely that Iceman wasn't reported to the Council by neither Emma or Bishop.
    That's what favoritism - or double-standard - is, by the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Havok was surely reported by Nightcrawler.
    And he was right to report him, that's not the contention point here - rather, the contention point lies with the ones who weren't reported to the Council when they should have been.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Kitty was allowed to use extreme force since it was an extreme situation (see X-Force or Orchis or Mystique being allowed to kill) so it wasn't a big deal to the eyes of the Council.
    X-Force is a special combat team and even they have to answer for what they do on the field, that's not a compelling argument you are making you know.
    And Mystique didn't kill anyone on her mission for the Council, nor maimed anyone either. I Don't know what incident you are referring to here.
    And if the Council deemed Kitty maiming those sapiens "not a big deal", they could have brought her to judgment and tell her just that in said judgment.
    That's the whole point of my remark.

    Of course, that would make the situation with Havok even more absurd, since they are reproaching him just that as well, but I digress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    No inconsistency.
    There is, you just Don't want to acknowledge it.
    Last edited by People Of The Earth; 03-30-2020 at 07:06 AM.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

  7. #457
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    That's not double standard, that's Emma being Emma. And that's why she's fun! She's shady. Also another reason why this new era is fun, because they're not all goodie good but they're doing shady things which are required to build a nation and save a species. Emma being shady about the Bobby situation is not only consistent with Emma's characterization, but discounts the fact that the Council is being written inconsistently because they likely didn't know about it.

    Kitty is another situation that you don't want to acknowledge but it is what is, and are you really going to expect the Council to punish Gorgon after they sent him as a body guard exactly to do what he did there? Against an armed group of men who where sent there to kill Xavier but keep in mind, the X-Men are the bad guys here!

    Havok was there because he tried to kill those men and he had to be stopped by Wolverine. They're putting a lot of stress in the fact that they cannot kill humans. Gorgon and Kitty didn't, and Bobby stopped as soon as Bishop called his name, he didn't have to be forced to stop and probably no one reported that to the Council, while Havok made a big scene in front of Kurt and Logan. Here we are, consistency!

    But I'm going to disengage now.

  8. #458
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    Quote Originally Posted by SchismOfMadroces View Post
    You did say that vulnerability to man-made weaponry isn't god-material. Snowbird, whom you admit is a god, shows that this isn't the case.
    I also said it wasn't the only thing tied to godhood, gods are able to revive themselves and/or transcend death, which is Snowbirds case, and which is also the case of the asgardians.
    That's not true with Storm.
    But you are right, if Snowbird had the same limitations than her, I would be questionning her status as well, it's just not the case though.

    Quote Originally Posted by SchismOfMadroces View Post
    Divine forebears also aren't a requisite for divinity. Loki, for example, is very much a god, but his parents are just Jotuns. Granted, Jotuns are mythological beings, but I'd certainly not call them gods.
    Loki's case is debatable, true, but even as a "simple" Jotun, he's much closer to that divine status than Storm is.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

  9. #459
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    That's not double standard, that's Emma being Emma.
    That's exactly what double standard is.
    Kitty is her friend, and she's useful to her on the council, that's why she protected her.
    When she asked for Jumbo Carnation to jump the line with the RP, that too was favoritism from her part.
    I'm sure you are familiar with the definition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    And that's why she's fun! She's shady. Also another reason why this new era is fun, because they're not all goodie good but they're doing shady things which are required to build a nation and save a species.
    You can be fine with Emma showing favoritism to her friends or the QC having a double-standard regarding who gets on the judgment roll and who doesn't, that's entirely within your right.
    How you feel about it isn't what I'm discussing here, the act itself is, and Emma being a Councilwoman the QC bears responsibility for what she does with the power that position offers to her.
    That's how governments work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Emma being shady about the Bobby situation is not only consistent with Emma's characterization,
    Emma's characterization isn't being discussed here either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    but discounts the fact that the Council is being written inconsistently because they likely didn't know about it.
    Which is what favoritism is (Emma protecting her friends from judgment), and why it is a double standard (regarding those other characters who ARE going through said judgment, them).

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Kitty is another situation that you don't want to acknowledge but it is what is,
    Oh I did, several times now.
    Again, she should have been on that judgment roll, even if it was to be cleared from all charges for the Reason you have cited.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    and are you really going to expect the Council to punish Gorgon after they sent him as a body guard exactly to do what he did there? Against an armed group of men who where sent there to kill Xavier but keep in mind, the X-Men are the bad guys here!
    This is the part where people decide to not read the content of the posts they are answering to…
    So, if you had actually read said content of my post, you'd know I Don't expect the Council to "punish" Gorgon as you put it.
    I expect the Council to "judge" Gorgon because of what he did, and eventually clear him of all charges because of the circumstances you cited.
    Same with Pryde.
    Same with Drake.
    That's called having a fair, functionnal justice system, not a cherry-picking/double-standardized mess that pass for one.
    No one respects two-speed justice systems for a Reason, that's because they're unfair and hypocritical in nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Havok was there because he tried to kill those men and he had to be stopped by Wolverine. They're putting a lot of stress in the fact that they cannot kill humans.
    He was there because he crippled those men.
    Them almost dying isn't helping his case that's for sure, but that's not the Reason why he's here.
    Again, a group of mutants almost killed sapiens over in New Mutants #3 or 4 iirc, you didn't see them in that room of judgment though and that's because "almost Killing" sapiens isn't a criteria on its own to warrant judgment.
    I'd say it's more an aggravating factor than a deciding one in itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Gorgon and Kitty didn't, and Bobby stopped as soon as Bishop called his name,
    I appreciate you finally acknowledging Bobby wanted to kill those men btw.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    he didn't have to be forced to stop
    Bishop stopping him verbally instead of physically Doesn't change his intention to kill them in the first place, the way Bishop did it is irrelevant regarding that.
    Drake was freezing those men to death before Bishop's intervention.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    and probably no one reported that to the Council, while Havok made a big scene in front of Kurt and Logan.
    Which is wrong for the Reasons I explained above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Here we are, consistency!

    But I'm going to disengage now.
    Maybe I'm wrong and you Don't know what favoritism and double standard mean, but I think you do, you just like Emma and those characters on the QC too much to acknowledge there's anything wrong with them indulging in those practices.
    We could debate on the merits of favoritism in a new society like Krakoa, but that'd be digressing.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

  10. #460
    Mighty Member Frobisher's Avatar
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    So, how about that new Hellions book?

  11. #461
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Gorgon, Iceman and Kitty are precise. Yeah, they did a lot of damage to that people but they know perfectly when to stop.

    Havok at that time did not know when to stop. He was out of his mind.

  12. #462
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    So, what happened to the nice and simple girl known as Ororo Munroe?
    You fundamentally misunderstand Ororo Munroe as a character.

    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    Isn't Gwenpool's comics notoriously whacky?
    That page you posted just demonstrates that, Batroc shouldn't be able to do that to Thor, either version - he'd break his foot.
    That, or the writer just ignore things that s/he shouldn't, as writers tend to do sometimes.
    Have you even read Gwenpool?

  13. #463
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    You fundamentally misunderstand Ororo Munroe as a character.
    What's in a name anyway?

    If you mean that I'm not used to a pompous Storm, that's right, I'm not.

  14. #464
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    Gorgon, Iceman and Kitty are precise. Yeah, they did a lot of damage to that people but they know perfectly when to stop.

    Havok at that time did not know when to stop. He was out of his mind.
    THIS. The law is do not murder. That is pretty clear. Havok was about to kill that guy and would have had he not been stopped. We can discuss the ethics behind Bobby and Kitty maiming some humans but they didnt try to kill them. Thats a big important difference that people either seem to miss or ignore. Now theres an argument that what Alex did was self defense bc his adversaries were egging the guy to kill him after nearly blowing him up with a rocket. It definitely wasnt a simple black/white situation. Ditto with Scalphunter. I think the QC need to update their laws especially where it pertains to self defense bc if someone is trying to kill you then you should be able to defend yourself even if that means killing them
    Last edited by Havok83; 03-30-2020 at 11:34 AM.

  15. #465
    Mighty Member Frobisher's Avatar
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    I think people are missing the deal with Scalphunter taking the rap. He hates the morlocks and defends himself from them, but he hates authority more. He’s not a grass.

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