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  1. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    I remember the first scenario of Kate(though she is invulnerable) she was protecting the children from the soldier.
    It wasn't just that one occurrence, she has been maiming and scarring sapiens on almost every mission she's been participating, and no, she wasn't forced to do so by the circumstances happening around her.
    She's a trained, seasoned member of the X-Men, she's absolutely capable of neutralizing people without maiming them if she wants to.

    And anyway that wasn't even the point I was making.
    The point I was making is that, she should have been judged by the Council as well as a result, regardless of said Council deciding to absolve her from the violences she committed afterward.
    As I said, it's a matter of consistency and coherence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    Bobby also invulnerable ,was protecting Bishop from a room full of soldiers,not to mention Kate's corpse which seeing as she can't be resurrected was vital to keep intact without external damage.
    Huh no, Drake had purely revenge on his mind when he maimed those soldiers and took away some of their limbs, and he too would have killed them if someone else hadn't stopped him.
    He should have been judged as well as a result, 100%

    All you are citing to excuse Drake and Pryde from being included in the judgment of the Council the same way the others were are extenuating circumstances.
    Havok had extenuating circumstances too, and it didn't avoid him facing the scrutiny from the Council.
    Same with Scalphunter, who was defending himself from an agression of the Morlocks.
    It's a double-standard and, frankly, it looks like blatant favoritism in-universe.
    No Wonder there is talk of corruption on this board when it comes to the QC, those are shady practices.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    So I would presume their situation was slightly different from Havok's I see no double standard
    Well, you are entitled to not see that of course. Happens to the best of us.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

    "No justice, no peace."

  2. #437
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    I don't understand your point about Zero Tolerance. Bad stuff has happened to the X-Men before, and that's what has probably radicalized them more than in the past.
    My point was that they had difficulties with numerous opponents in worse positions then they do in Marauders and they didn't resort to crippling people. That's why it's out of character. Do you know what happens in Zero Tolerance? Iceman and a couple of other mutants, like Cecelia Reyes and Sabra, were on the run from Prime Sentinels, who make regular Sentinels look like boy scouts (that's what Omega Sentinel is, btw), this occurred to all the X-men simualeanously over the entire X-line. They din't have technology, no back-up and Bastian was doing things like strapping bombs to Cyclops in custody. The Russians are nothing to the X-men, they're not like us they're super-heroes who dismantle regular people without harming them in seconds. The Russians are "bad stuff," villains like Bastian are real threats. That's a very big jump too starting to be ok with crippling humans and you don't seem to be upset about that or thing that it's strange.

    However they were radicalised was wrong, radicalising is not something good. Surely you've learn this reading X-men comics, pre Krakoa.
    In Russia children were being shot at and Storm and Bobby were about to die. I don't think Kitty was going to have a whole philosophical debate about how she should act when that many people were about to die. Also, she was essentially alone in that situation so she unleashed before harm was done. If all, it was a more realistic take on a deadly situation against a whole army of soldiers with tanks and depowering tech. Who where shooting point blank at kids and Kitty herself.
    That's just being a super-hero in Marvel. Being shot at isn't a good excuse to start crippling people, Daredevil gets chewed out for that whenever he does that. You're coming at this as though they wouldn't have any chance otherwise when that's plainly not true. That have experience, training and super-powers to make that a reliable option. They're not regular soldiers. She's been in situations alone like that before, alone, and not had to cripple people - her entire career, in fact. It wasn't until she went to krakoa that she began crippling people, along with Iceman. The incidents I'm talking about are when Kitty and Bobby are on the high seas against a bunch of armed Russian soldiers. They pose no threat to them, they hold all the cards in those encounters. Except all Kitty needs to do is phase though their heads to make them unconscious, that's it.



    Also, all of this is what we meant in the other thread about holding the X-Men to a higher standard.
    You're not holding them to a higher standard, this is a standard barely below Sabretooth. Which makes the Hellions idea all the more silly. They gave Sabre tooth himself immunity and sent him out on errands despite knowing what he'd do - and now they finally "understand" this was wrong they're fine handing over people like that to Mr. Sinister? Why aren't they just spread to the other groups, it's like Krakoa cares about the people they destroy for whatever missions the government wants.


    If you had Sue having the whole Future Foundation kids being shot at, she would have completely lost control and everyone would be ok with because she's a mUM. But you expect mutants to be gentle and kind after all they've gone through because they need to be heroes or poor humans will feel discriminated.
    You mustn't know Sue very well, Sue never goes berserk unless she has no choice - like against Doom. A bunch of human soldiers are nothing to her. She can protect the kids and disarm and contain a bunch of human soldiers in seconds without raising a sweat. I expect the X-men to act like super-heroes, crippling defenceless people isn't very heroic. That's what the Brotherhood would do.

  3. #438
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Storm's a confirmed goddess now, no point in discussing whether she is or not.

    And she's earned the title.
    She was knocked down by Batroc the leaper a couple of issues ago, and by russian power-dampeners issue #1 of Marauders, that's not godly at all...
    When a stray bullet can take her out, there's not much to say about her "goddess" status in general, beyond it being collective wishful-thinking.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

    "No justice, no peace."

  4. #439
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    She was knocked down by Batroc the leaper a couple of issues ago, and by russian power-dampeners issue #1 of Marauders, that's not godly at all...
    When a stray bullet can take her out, there's not much to say about her "goddess" status in general, beyond it being collective wishful-thinking.
    LMAOOOO the reeeeeeeaaaaaaaaching. She’s a goddess whether you like it or not. Anticipating and warning Batroc not to attack before getting kicked does nothing to change that.

  5. #440
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    Being vulnerable to common man-made weaponry and martial art is just not god-material, sorry if my point wasn't clear before.
    She's a goddess in name only, and I do agree with the other posters who questionned what the other X-Men were thinking about her being referred as a goddess constantly.
    It must be awkward to witness.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

    "No justice, no peace."

  6. #441
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    Being vulnerable to common man-made weaponry and martial art is just not god-material, sorry if my point wasn't clear before.
    She's a goddess in name only, and I do agree with the other posters who questionned what the other X-Men were thinking about her being referred as a goddess constantly.
    It must be awkward to witness.
    ?



  7. #442
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    Gwenpool, really? Now, who is reaching?
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

    "No justice, no peace."

  8. #443
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Asgardians are mostly on Spider-Man physical levels. Only some of the Gods are more durable. Using durability to measure godhood is... Not a good indicator.

    She's a God because she can access godlike powers and she's empowered by faith. And that's canon stuff.

  9. #444
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post


    Well, you are entitled to not see that of course. Happens to the best of us.
    The Havok situation was blatantly different, as I've already told before.

    Havok was trying/going to kill the soldiers which goes against the Krakoan laws. Kitty and Bobby weren't. Havok also exhibited suspicious behavior in that encounter that was brought up to the Council attention.

    Kitty was in a position where she was entitled to the use of extreme force in Russia. Read it how you want it, but that was a bad situation and extreme force can be used in bad situations, as it's been portrayed multiple times. Also, no killing or trying to kill anyone.

    Drake went crazy I agree with that, but Emma and Bishop likely didn't report that to the Council. Reading the comic would actually highly suggest that. Also again, no killing.

    No inconsistency about the Quite Council behavior, you're just hating for the sake of it at this point. In, like, every thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    My point was that they had difficulties with numerous opponents in worse positions then they do in Marauders and they didn't resort to crippling people. That's why it's out of character. Do you know what happens in Zero Tolerance? Iceman and a couple of other mutants, like Cecelia Reyes and Sabra, were on the run from Prime Sentinels, who make regular Sentinels look like boy scouts (that's what Omega Sentinel is, btw), this occurred to all the X-men simualeanously over the entire X-line. They din't have technology, no back-up and Bastian was doing things like strapping bombs to Cyclops in custody. The Russians are nothing to the X-men, they're not like us they're super-heroes who dismantle regular people without harming them in seconds. The Russians are "bad stuff," villains like Bastian are real threats. That's a very big jump too starting to be ok with crippling humans and you don't seem to be upset about that or thing that it's strange.

    However they were radicalised was wrong, radicalising is not something good. Surely you've learn this reading X-men comics, pre Krakoa.


    That's just being a super-hero in Marvel. Being shot at isn't a good excuse to start crippling people, Daredevil gets chewed out for that whenever he does that. You're coming at this as though they wouldn't have any chance otherwise when that's plainly not true. That have experience, training and super-powers to make that a reliable option. They're not regular soldiers. She's been in situations alone like that before, alone, and not had to cripple people - her entire career, in fact. It wasn't until she went to krakoa that she began crippling people, along with Iceman. The incidents I'm talking about are when Kitty and Bobby are on the high seas against a bunch of armed Russian soldiers. They pose no threat to them, they hold all the cards in those encounters. Except all Kitty needs to do is phase though their heads to make them unconscious, that's it.





    You're not holding them to a higher standard, this is a standard barely below Sabretooth. Which makes the Hellions idea all the more silly. They gave Sabre tooth himself immunity and sent him out on errands despite knowing what he'd do - and now they finally "understand" this was wrong they're fine handing over people like that to Mr. Sinister? Why aren't they just spread to the other groups, it's like Krakoa cares about the people they destroy for whatever missions the government wants.




    You mustn't know Sue very well, Sue never goes berserk unless she has no choice - like against Doom. A bunch of human soldiers are nothing to her. She can protect the kids and disarm and contain a bunch of human soldiers in seconds without raising a sweat. I expect the X-men to act like super-heroes, crippling defenceless people isn't very heroic. That's what the Brotherhood would do.
    I'm not going to make a three pages reply because I'm clearly not going to change your mind lol

    Russians had power dampening tech. That means that if Kitty got hit like Storm and Bobby didz they'd have killed her and the others, and the children would have been sent to the Gulags. She went 100% on them since the situation (whether you like it or not, but it's on paper) was going down south with the Russians.

    Have you read anything from Decimation onwards? The X-Men are not shy about violence and never have been.

    Sue went berserker against the Avengers because they were taking away her children. She wasn't held accountable later because the mother excuse.

    Sue can protect and disarm because one of her character traits is being overpowered. Kitty was facing an army with power dampening tech all by herself, w/o the privilege of having impenetrable force fields on her side. Also, Kitty's powers do not work like Vision's. She needs to turn solid to hit an enemy.

  10. #445
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    Gwenpool, really? Now, who is reaching?
    ............what?

  11. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Asgardians are mostly on Spider-Man physical levels. Only some of the Gods are more durable. Using durability to measure godhood is... Not a good indicator.
    You know that's already leagues above what humans can achieve, so it is as good an Indicator as any. Not saying it's the only one, but durability or a capacity to resurrect from the dead, if not transcend death itself is mandatory, none of which are part of Storm attributes to my knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    She's a God because she can access godlike powers and she's empowered by faith. And that's canon stuff.
    And she is vulnerable to anyone with a gun, a knife, or any weapon really. Also canon stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    ............what?
    Isn't Gwenpool's comics notoriously whacky?
    That page you posted just demonstrates that, Batroc shouldn't be able to do that to Thor, either version - he'd break his foot.
    That, or the writer just ignore things that s/he shouldn't, as writers tend to do sometimes.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

    "No justice, no peace."

  12. #447
    Fantastic Member SchismOfMadroces's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    Being vulnerable to common man-made weaponry and martial art is just not god-material, sorry if my point wasn't clear before.
    She's a goddess in name only, and I do agree with the other posters who questionned what the other X-Men were thinking about her being referred as a goddess constantly.
    It must be awkward to witness.
    Snowbird was killed by man-made weaponry, and there's plenty of material to support her godhood.

  13. #448
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    I'm not going to make a three pages reply because I'm clearly not going to change your mind lol

    Russians had power dampening tech. That means that if Kitty got hit like Storm and Bobby didz they'd have killed her and the others, and the children would have been sent to the Gulags. She went 100% on them since the situation (whether you like it or not, but it's on paper) was going down south with the Russians.
    https://abload.de/image.php?img=18xwklc.jpg

    Here she's attacking Russians and crippling them with ordinary guns, she's a super-hero dodging bullets is what they do. Ordinary soldiers are defenceless against her. It's not like it's the X-men haven't fought anti-mutant technology before, of course, but that's not an excuse to do anything short of killing them.

    It happening on paper isn't a good reason to assume everything Kitty does is correct, you can make judgements on what characters do. She's not right because she's Kitty Pryde she's got to be correct because she makes good arguments for how she got to her decision.

    That sort of danger and risk is not unique in X-men comics as you think. They're still not supposed to cripple people.

    Have you read anything from Decimation onwards? The X-Men are not shy about violence and never have been.
    Bits here and there. You can be violent without crippling people or killing them in comic books, the X-men are experts at this. They have options we can only dream about having in a combat situation. They don't go straight for the kill at the first sign of violence, they do it into proportion to the danger involved and that they're not supposed to be blood thirty psychopaths. They're supposed to be the X-men, not the Brotherhood.

    Sue went berserker against the Avengers because they were taking away her children. She wasn't held accountable later because the mother excuse.
    They're the Avengers, not a bunch of human soldiers and she's got the power to kill or cripple many of them but she's hasn't, has she? Since when has Krakoa hold anyone accountable for their actions? Unless you're Sabretooth they allow you to harm people as much as you want. Being a mother isn't an excuse and she hasn't destroyed people like the current X-men are doing and give her children were at risk they're lucky they didn't have casualties for angering her with their stupidity.

    You meant the X-men, right?

    Sue can protect and disarm because one of her character traits is being overpowered.
    You say that like Kitty isn't powerful herself. She may not be on Sue's level, but she's a tough opponent against a bunch of random human soldiers. Any super-hero worth their salt would take them out in five seconds flat without crippling anyone. In the real world this wouldn't work like that; except this is the world of comic books. Physics as we know it don't apply. It's why Batman hasn't crippled or killed thousands of ordinary people cleaning up Gotham.

    Kitty was facing an army with power dampening tech all by herself, w/o the privilege of having impenetrable force fields on her side.
    Sounds like a regular day at the office for Kitty Pryde. She doesn't need force fields, any weapons they have go right through her. They can't touch her. Got any scans of the depowering tech? That's an edge but that's small scale against what the X-men typically face when they have to get lethal and even then they're not supposed to do that, outside of members who are known for being brutal - like Psylocke and Wolverine. Read Operation: Zero Tolerance.

    Also, Kitty's powers do not work like Vision's. She needs to turn solid to hit an enemy.
    Maybe you don't know Kitty as much as you think, they have very similar powers.

  14. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    The Havok situation was blatantly different, as I've already told before.

    Havok was trying/going to kill the soldiers which goes against the Krakoan laws. Kitty and Bobby weren't. Havok also exhibited suspicious behavior in that encounter that was brought up to the Council attention.
    Jean made a point about Havok sending the sapiens to the hospital with permanent injuries to them.
    Magneto made a point about how Killing said sapiens would have meant the Pit immediately to Havok.
    So no, Havok was sent to judgment because of the injuries he actually caused to the sapiens, not for a near-miss Killing that was foiled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Kitty was in a position where she was entitled to the use of extreme force in Russia. Read it how you want it, but that was a bad situation and extreme force can be used in bad situations, as it's been portrayed multiple times. Also, no killing or trying to kill anyone.
    "It wasn't just that one occurrence, she has been maiming and scarring sapiens on almost every mission she's been participating, and no, she wasn't forced to do so by the circumstances happening around her.
    She's a trained, seasoned member of the X-Men, she's absolutely capable of neutralizing people without maiming them if she wants to.

    And anyway that wasn't even the point I was making.
    The point I was making is that, she should have been judged by the Council as well as a result, regardless of said Council deciding to absolve her from the violences she committed AFTERWARD.
    As I said, it's a matter of consistency and coherence."


    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Drake went crazy I agree with that, but Emma and Bishop likely didn't report that to the Council. Reading the comic would actually highly suggest that. Also again, no killing.
    "Huh no, Drake had purely revenge on his mind when he maimed those soldiers and took away some of their limbs, and he too would have killed them if someone else hadn't stopped him.
    He should have been judged as well as a result, 100%

    All you are citing to excuse Drake and Pryde from being included in the judgment of the Council the same way the others were are extenuating circumstances.
    Havok had extenuating circumstances too, and it didn't avoid him facing the scrutiny from the Council.
    Same with Scalphunter, who was defending himself from an agression of the Morlocks.
    It's a double-standard and, frankly, it looks like blatant favoritism in-universe.
    No Wonder there is talk of corruption on this board when it comes to the QC, those are shady practices."


    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    No inconsistency about the Quite Council behavior, you're just hating for the sake of it at this point. In, like, every thread.
    I copy-pasted the Reasons why it is inconsistent from my initial post, maybe you'll adress them this time instead.
    And as I said to another poster, this discussion was easily avoidable had the QC done things properly with their judgment circle - or whatever the name of this is - by bringing everyone concerned there, instead of cherry-picking who gets a pass and who doesn't.

    But maybe that was the point of the writer, who knows.
    Last edited by People Of The Earth; 03-30-2020 at 06:04 AM.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

    "No justice, no peace."

  15. #450
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SchismOfMadroces View Post
    Snowbird was killed by man-made weaponry, and there's plenty of material to support her godhood.
    I know a True Believer doesn't need proofs to believe but, as I'm not a True Believer…

    So, what happened to the nice and simple girl known as Ororo Munroe?
    “Strength is the lot of but a few privileged men; but austere perseverance, harsh and continuous, may be employed by the smallest of us and rarely fails of its purpose, for its silent power grows irresistibly greater with time.” Goethe

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