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  1. #376
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    Novisimmas did overcome mutantkind and are the dominant branch of humanity on their Earth, and mutantkind is a dying branch of humanity on said Earth, the Novissimas litteraly parked the last mutants into this dome.
    They didn’t overcome mutantkind because they didn’t overcome Moira, who has the ability to offset the entire board even when mutants are at their lowest point. As we saw repeatedly in House of X #2.

    So, not a mutant specifically. Someone with a power so impactful on them. That priest specifically refer to Moira the individual, not Moira the mutant.
    Moira would be a vampire, an atlantean or a Skrull, he'd be saying the same thing.
    Dude... the conflict is between the homo novissima and the homo superior. If one of them holds the unattainable power, then it’s important that they are the ones who have it. This “well just about anyone could’ve had it” excuse isn’t flying... the reason Moira has it because she’s a mutant and because in the end, natural evolution has more power over tech/the homo novissima. In fact, we know Moira and Logan didn’t end things just like that because they wanted to find out what they were up to.



    Huh? They already proved that by winning their conflict against mutantkind and having dominion over Earth and its solar system.
    So this it's not about proving anything to anyone, the Novissimas just Don't want all their achievements and plans to be undone, that's all.
    That's why they were planning to ship Moira off-world.
    If they won, there would be no tenth life for Moira. Moira resetting the world undoes their win, which is exactly what the homo novissima want to stop. Not sure what about it you aren’t getting

  2. #377
    Libre. People Of The Earth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    They didn’t overcome mutantkind because they didn’t overcome Moira, who has the ability to offset the entire board even when mutants are at their lowest point. As we saw repeatedly in House of X #2.
    They couldn't care less about mutantkind at this point in time, the last mutants have been parked and aren't a threat to the Novissimas anymore in life VI.
    Moira's power however is what's threatening to them, not the fact she's a mutant: she could be a vampire or a skrull or an inhuman, the Novissimas would treat her the same way, as a menace to their plans.
    From their perspective, that's what matter, not her mutantness or ideology.
    Is she the last hope for mutantkind? Yes, she is.
    Is mutantkind on the brink of extinction in Life VI? Yes, they are.
    Do the novissimas care about any of that? No, they Don't.
    They care only about preserving what they built, hence why they wanted to ship her off-planet.
    That's the reality of their situation in that life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Dude... the conflict is between the homo novissima and the homo superior. If one of them holds the unattainable power, then it’s important that they are the ones who have it.
    First off I'm not a dude, so Don't.
    Secondly, Yes, it was a conflict between those two branches of humanity.
    Up until the Novissimas beat the mutants and locked the last ones on Earth in that dome.
    And the Novissimas Don't care about Moira "holding unattainable power" because, in their mind, once they merge with the Phalanx they'll be immune to it. Forever.
    The priest even taunt Moira about it, showing her they know what she is capable of (which is a pretty stupid move to make tbh, showing their hand like that).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    This “well just about anyone could’ve had it” excuse isn’t flying... the reason Moira has it because she’s a mutant and because in the end, natural evolution has more power over tech/the homo novissima.
    "Natural evolution never stood a chance against their engineering" or something along those lines.
    Novissimas Don't fear mutants, they Don't see mutants as a threat anymore in life VI, only as rare specimen to be observed in a controlled environment...
    What they do fear is the universal nature of Moira's power, which could undo everything they have achieved.
    The priest said just that on the page you actually posted earlier in this thread.
    So this “well just about anyone could’ve had it” excuse is flying for exactly that Reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    In fact, we know Moira and Logan didn’t end things just like that because they wanted to find out what they were up to.

    Of course they didn't end things just like that, mutantkind was beaten in this life, the same way it had been beaten in Moira's previous lives.
    You know what they say about Madness: Something needed to change or they'd be beaten in the next lives of Moira too, and that Something was the information at their disposal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    If they won, there would be no tenth life for Moira. Moira resetting the world undoes their win, which is exactly what the homo novissima want to stop. Not sure what about it you aren’t getting
    You are postulating mutantkind wasn't beaten in life VI because Moira was still alive in that life, I'm postulating that they were beaten, as the last remnant of mutants on Earth were rounded up in a domed preserve by the Novissimas to be observed...
    Moira resetting everything by Killing herself would have been pointless if they hadn't acquired new data, because mutantkind kept being subjugated/beaten in every life she lived including life VI, and would have kept losing afterward if not for new information.
    You can't even talk about a Pyrrhic Victory in such a situation.
    In fact, mutantkind kept losing afterward even with that new information until life X who's her current life and is a work-in-progress.
    Last edited by People Of The Earth; 03-31-2020 at 02:00 AM.
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  3. #378
    Super Moderator Tenebrae's Avatar
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    Reminder that putting "lmao" or "lol" in response to someone generally makes your maturity level questionable so let's not devolve to that plz.
    Constantly talking isn't necessarily communicating

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  4. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Lichrully this to a T



    Y’all need to read HOXPOX again slowly
    Eh, when I saw the conversation, it was Moira’s future was the future and therefore mutants were the next step in evolution and that would only change after Hickman left and it got retconned. And just saying marvel’s already not making all the writers stick to that future. So if you were really talking about something else, by all means carry on...

  5. #380
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anyajenkins View Post
    Eh, when I saw the conversation, it was Moira’s future was the future and therefore mutants were the next step in evolution and that would only change after Hickman left and it got retconned. And just saying marvel’s already not making all the writers stick to that future. So if you were really talking about something else, by all means carry on...
    Again, what do alternate futures have to do with this story?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebrae View Post
    Reminder that putting "lmao" or "lol" in response to someone generally makes your maturity level questionable so let's not devolve to that plz.
    okay....

  6. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Again, what do alternate futures have to do with this story?
    They tie in via Moira X. This was established as a plot point from the beginning of Hickman's run.

  7. #382
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    They tie in via Moira X. This was established as a plot point from the beginning of Hickman's run.
    Moira’s previous lives aren’t alternate futures. Since we’re stuck inside and I have nothing better to do, I’ll keep saying it all the day long. These are past lifetimes to Moira, they’ve already happened. So, again, I will ask: what do alternate futures have to do with this story?

  8. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Moira’s previous lives aren’t alternate futures. Since we’re stuck inside and I have nothing better to do, I’ll keep saying it all the day long. These are past lifetimes to Moira, they’ve already happened. So, again, I will ask: what do alternate futures have to do with this story?
    By how her powers work, they are the same thing. Whenever she dies the timeline resets to zero. Her past lives include futures further than in the current 616 time line, that's why they're alternate futures. She was moulded by her experiences in this realities, it's not like she went to the DCU or Dark Horse in them. That's why she had to "break" Xavier and form Krakoa.

  9. #384
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    By how her powers work, they are the same thing. Whenever she dies the timeline resets to zero. Her past lives include futures further than in the current 616 time line, that's why they're alternate futures. She was moulded by her experiences in this realities, it's not like she went to the DCU or Dark Horse in them. That's why she had to "break" Xavier and form Krakoa.
    Those are past lives, experiences that still exist to Moira. The proof is in her memories shared to Xavier and Erik. Her power is not traveling to different realities, which would be the case going by your definition of these events.

  10. #385
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Those are past lives, experiences that still exist to Moira. The proof is in her memories shared to Xavier and Erik. Her power is not traveling to different realities, which would be the case going by your definition of these events.
    Im surprised people still dont get it bc I thought Hickman made it very digestible complete with the timeline graphic. HoX #2 really explains it well

  11. #386
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    By how her powers work, they are the same thing. Whenever she dies the timeline resets to zero. Her past lives include futures further than in the current 616 time line, that's why they're alternate futures. She was moulded by her experiences in this realities, it's not like she went to the DCU or Dark Horse in them. That's why she had to "break" Xavier and form Krakoa.


    they don't simply reset to zero, they end. that's why the Librarian wanted to send Moira off-world in Pox6; in her sixth life.



    here is a map of Moira's lives, minus the sixth life. those timelines all end at a point because when Moira dies she both ends that timeline, which restarts, and forwards her consciousness to the new timeline, which she has access to in utero. those timelines no longer exist, the reality is annihilated, but reality begins again in a largely similar way to the previous reality - I can't believe I have to say this but as this is Hickman and x-men so it's probably intentional, but they're "uncannily" similar to the previous reality. the nature of her ability is reality-warping, not time manipulation, and we know this because the Librarian wanted to send her off-world to prevent her from dying when the phalanx eat the planet. the phalanx were consuming the planet for energy before assimilating the rest of the homos novissima society (see below)



    ...and because she ends reality when she dies, if she died when the planet was destroyed, she'd prevent the homo novissima from assimilating by wiping the board before they could take knowledge of her back to the Dominion. However, if she isn't on the "token" planet, the homo novissima can lose that world, become assimilated into the phalanx, and add their intelligence to the Dominion with their knowledge of Moira. then it'll no longer matter if she dies or not because they'll know her - and their knowledge transcends space-time. Meaning, they'll still know of Moira in the next reality when she wipes everything out; thus they could kill Moira before her X-gene manifest and mutants lose forever.

    Right now, one thing we don't know about Moira is what exactly she has against clairvoyants, but more importantly for this discussion, how exactly do their abilities work in relation to her. My best guess? it is possible that you can see the future while (and before) Moira's alive, since reality, thus time and the future, still exist as long as she isn't killed; but that's purely speculative. according to what is shown in the text she ends reality and keeps her memories in the next reality, like some sorta destroyer class single-entity phalanx, which is why the Librarian believes the phalanx would consider her a threat if they learned of her and wouldn't abide letting a being like her exist.
    Last edited by lemonpeace; 04-01-2020 at 05:47 PM.
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  12. #387
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post


    they don't simply reset to zero, they end. that's why the Librarian wanted to send Moira off-world in Pox6; in her sixth life.



    here is a map of Moira's lives, minus the sixth life. those timelines all end at a point because when Moira dies she both ends that timeline, which restarts, and forwards her consciousness to the new timeline, which she has access to in utero. those timelines no longer exist, the reality is annihilated, but reality begins again in a largely similar way to the previous reality - I can't believe I have to say this but as this is Hickman and x-men so it's probably intentional, but they're "uncannily" similar to the previous reality. the nature of her ability is reality-warping, not time manipulation, and we know this because the Librarian wanted to send her off-world to prevent her from dying when the phalanx eat the planet. the phalanx were consuming the planet for energy before assimilating the rest of the homos novissima society (see below)



    ...and because she ends reality when she dies, if she died when the planet was destroyed, she'd prevent the homo novissima from assimilating by wiping the board before they could take knowledge of her back to the Dominion. However, if she isn't on the "token" planet, then the homo novissima can lose that world, become assimilated into the Dominion with their knowledge of Moira, and it no longer matters if she dies or not because their knowledge transcends space-time, meaning they'll know of Moira in the next reality; and thus they could kill Moira before her X-gene manifest and the mutants lose forever.

    Right now, one thing we don't know about Moira is what exactly she has against clairvoyants, but more importantly for this discussion, how exactly do their abilities work in relation to her. My best guess? it is possible that you can see the future while (and before) Moira's alive, since reality, thus time and the future, still exist as long as she isn't killed; but that's purely speculative. according to what is shown in the text she ends reality and keeps her memories in the next reality, like some sorta destroyer class single-entity phalanx, which is why the Librarian believes the phalanx would consider her a threat if they learned of her and wouldn't abide letting a being like her exist.
    I think it's because they can "see" her for what she really is, like Destiny. Xavier as a telepath couldn't really see Moira for what she was without specifically searching for her memories of her past lives, while Destiny recognized what she was at first sight. I think Moira is scared that Destiny or another precog could find her, kill her and reset things (and she doesn't know if Life 11 will exist). Plus I agree that precogs can probably see all the future, since Destiny could even count how many lives Moira had before the cycle stopped.

  13. #388
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    I think it's because they can "see" her for what she really is, like Destiny. Xavier as a telepath couldn't really see Moira for what she was without specifically searching for her memories of her past lives, while Destiny recognized what she was at first sight. I think Moira is scared that Destiny or another precog could find her, kill her and reset things (and she doesn't know if Life 11 will exist). Plus I agree that precogs can probably see all the future, since Destiny could even count how many lives Moira had before the cycle stopped.
    What is she....really?
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