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  1. #361
    duke's casettetape lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    I haven't changed the subject, all I've been talking about why how canon is at the mercy of the creators writing the stories. Nothing is written in stone in comic books.
    but that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand if the discussion at hand is about what's canon right now. let me put it like this, lets say someone lights me and you on fire and locks us in a burning room. so I look to you and I'm telling you "we are on fire, help me bust down the door to escape" and you go "I mean fire doesn't burn forever, maybe it'll go out before we open the door"; sure, that's true and maybe it'll work out the way you'll say, but the fire is burning currently. you see where I'm coming from? a sound argument isn't the same as a logical argument (and vice versa), you know? while what you are saying is valid, it's still actively denying the current reality of the situation.

    also, for clarity sake, Moira's lives aren't "alternate futures", her powers aren't traveling to the future, they are essentially past timelines; she has already lived those lives. that's what definitates HoX/PoX/DoX from something like DoFP, they aren't fighting another dystopic future, they are fighting an inevitability that could feasibly happen in some form or another no matter how long it takes to get there because it has ALREADY happened multiple times.

    I think those are the two fundamental misunderstandings here.
    Last edited by lemonpeace; 03-29-2020 at 07:23 PM.
    THE SIGNAL (Duke Thomas) is DC's secret shonen protagonist so I made him a fandom wiki

    also, check out "The Signal Tape" a Duke Thomas fan project.

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  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    It said that humans would be extinct within two to three generations, not 1k years in the future.
    because they become homo novissimia, they replace their evolutional progress with machines by delaying mutants with sentinels

  3. #363
    Astonishing Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    because they become homo novissimia, they replace their evolutional progress with machines by delaying mutants with sentinels
    Mutants are born from humans as well as other mutants. Sentinels killing mutants wouldn't stop mutant births overtaking human births; if Sentinels stopped mutants to that degree they would end up killing all the humans too a la Days of Future Past.

  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    but that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand if the discussion at hand is about what's canon right now. let me put it like this, lets say someone lights me and you on fire and locks us in a burning room. so I look to you and I'm telling you "we are on fire, help me bust down the door to escape" and you go "I mean fire doesn't burn forever, maybe it'll go out before we open the door"; sure, that's true and maybe it'll work out the way you'll say, but the fire is burning currently. you see where I'm coming from? a sound argument isn't the same as a logical argument (and vice versa), you know? while what you are saying is valid, it's still actively denying the current reality of the situation.
    That's all I've been talking about and numerous people have been ignoring it as though that wasn't a crucial part of may argument. Canon is not limited to what's happening right now, it's a vast sea of change not a single page in a single comic book - that may not hold true in Hickman's run once he's finished.

    You all are just looking at what the story is saying right now and holding that as something which is immutable to time, when I'm talking about the people who write those pages who will impact how concrete that stays and whoever takes over will determinate the future of the X-men. The writers and editors of the X-men aren't immaterial to how the comics are writing, quite the opposite. Canon lives and dies on their imaginations. The current reality of the situation is Hickman is writing the comics, but that won't stay like that forever and his ideas will be altered once he leaves. That's the nature of serial storytelling in comic books.

    also, for clarity sake, Moira's lives aren't "alternate futures", her powers aren't traveling to the future, they are essentially past timelines; she has already lived those lives. that's what definitates HoX/PoX/DoX from something like DoFP, they aren't fighting another dystopic future, they are fighting an inevitability that could feasibly happen in some form or another no matter how long it takes to get there because it has ALREADY happened multiple times.

    I think those are the two fundamental misunderstandings here.
    I wasn't talking about all the futures Moira X has had, I was focusing on the current one - and the fact that it's the "canon" future now (and this comes with huge caveats*) is not proof that it will be the only future Marvel has until the end of time. The Krakoa setting and its timelines are massive retcon events but people are acting as though it's a natural event that wrote itself into existence. Comics aren't sole about what's on the page, it's about the people writing those stories. This is why Jean Grey died in The Phoenix Saga is because Jean used an ancient Kree weapon to kill herself Jim Shooter ordered her to die because he thought Phoenix went too far committing genocide.

    This also ignores the theme Hickman's run has spelt out since the beginning: X-men always lose. What do you think happens when that activates?


    * like, say, Moira X dying permanently - nobody knows the consequences that will have on the timelines

  5. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    And the reason those same humans didn’t lose their future to the homo novissima is because Moira saved them. Anyways, here’s scans from POX 6 that not only show mutants are the next step in evolution, but there is are nine definitive futures that happened before getting reset.




    I love Powers of X shutting down arguments.
    It didn't shut down anything though.
    Moira' scope is limited - litteraly - to the timelines she can experience with her powers (10? maybe 11) - there's Nothing definitive about them as a result.

    And natural evolution is irrelevant given technology can trumps it in 616. Just pointing out the obvious.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

    "No justice, no peace."

  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    That's all I've been talking about and numerous people have been ignoring it as though that wasn't a crucial part of may argument. Canon is not limited to what's happening right now, it's a vast sea of change not a single page in a single comic book - that may not hold true in Hickman's run once he's finished.

    You all are just looking at what the story is saying right now and holding that as something which is immutable to time, when I'm talking about the people who write those pages who will impact how concrete that stays and whoever takes over will determinate the future of the X-men. The writers and editors of the X-men aren't immaterial to how the comics are writing, quite the opposite. Canon lives and dies on their imaginations. The current reality of the situation is Hickman is writing the comics, but that won't stay like that forever and his ideas will be altered once he leaves. That's the nature of serial storytelling in comic books.



    I wasn't talking about all the futures Moira X has had, I was focusing on the current one - and the fact that it's the "canon" future now (and this comes with huge caveats*) is not proof that it will be the only future Marvel has until the end of time. The Krakoa setting and its timelines are massive retcon events but people are acting as though it's a natural event that wrote itself into existence. Comics aren't sole about what's on the page, it's about the people writing those stories. This is why Jean Grey died in The Phoenix Saga is because Jean used an ancient Kree weapon to kill herself Jim Shooter ordered her to die because he thought Phoenix went too far committing genocide.

    This also ignores the theme Hickman's run has spelt out since the beginning: X-men always lose. What do you think happens when that activates?


    * like, say, Moira X dying permanently - nobody knows the consequences that will have on the timelines
    I'm sorry I don't know how to highlight a quote ,so I'll have to type.
    "I wasn't talking about all the futures Moira X has had, I I was focusing on the current one - and the fact that it's the "canon" future now () is not proof that it will be the only future marvel has until the end of time "

    I'm not sure I understand this line at all. Surely the current Moira timeline is the present , and we have yet to see its future. If Moira dies and this present is 're written , then we will never see this future ?
    So yes of course this future can be changed because we don't even know what it would be yet ?!

  7. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    It didn't shut down anything though.
    Moira' scope is limited - litteraly - to the timelines she can experience with her powers (10? maybe 11) - there's Nothing definitive about them as a result.

    And natural evolution is irrelevant given technology can trumps it in 616. Just pointing out the obvious.
    You've highlighted one of the most weird inconsistencies of the 616 humans . They are absolutely determined not to be replaced by mutants , their own children ,and yet are perfectly happy to be replaced by machines.

  8. #368
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    And natural evolution is irrelevant given technology can trumps it in 616. Just pointing out the obvious.
    Technology doesn’t “trump” it otherwise humans wouldn’t have needed to murder them by the millions and there would’ve been a contingency for Moira besides having to use the Phalanx to defeat her. There’s a reason he said “we would not tolerate something like you having power over something like us.”

  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    Mutants are born from humans as well as other mutants. Sentinels killing mutants wouldn't stop mutant births overtaking human births; if Sentinels stopped mutants to that degree they would end up killing all the humans too a la Days of Future Past.
    Isn't the central " lesson " of days of future past still relevant now ? If humans turn to machines to stop mutants , they will ultimately be replaced by machines.
    Last edited by Nigel909; 03-30-2020 at 03:29 PM.

  10. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel909 View Post
    I'm sorry I don't know how to highlight a quote ,so I'll have to type.
    "I wasn't talking about all the futures Moira X has had, I I was focusing on the current one - and the fact that it's the "canon" future now () is not proof that it will be the only future marvel has until the end of time "
    Click reply, and you can highlight the relevant portion by ending it with [/quote].

    I'm not sure I understand this line at all. Surely the current Moira timeline is the present , and we have yet to see its future. If Moira dies and this present is 're written , then we will never see this future ?
    That's just standard comics time lines, and might have unseen implications - like erasing Krakoa from the current time line itself. Without Moira X there is no Krakoa in the present if her final death creates another reality over 616. Moira X being in the current timeline is no guarantee it'll be safe from retconning or changing anything that occurs after Hickman. There's no guarantee she won't be written out by Hickman himself given his storylines have overlapping alternate realities and time lines since she's not the standard Moira, that Moira is a human. Alternate time lines can be get really complicated and Hickman's using several.

    So yes of course this future can be changed because we don't even know what it would be yet ?!
    If you agree the future the current timeline is that malleable I don't know why we're arguing? That we don't know the future of what events the current status quo is is what every book does, it certainly doesn't make whatever future they want be "fixed" in the timeline.

  11. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Click reply, and you can highlight the relevant portion by ending it with
    .



    That's just standard comics time lines, and might have unseen implications - like erasing Krakoa from the current time line itself. Without Moira X there is no Krakoa in the present if her final death creates another reality over 616. Moira X being in the current timeline is no guarantee it'll be safe from retconning or changing anything that occurs after Hickman. There's no guarantee she won't be written out by Hickman himself given his storylines have overlapping alternate realities and time lines since she's not the standard Moira, that Moira is a human. Alternate time lines can be get really complicated and Hickman's using several.



    If you agree the future the current timeline is that malleable I don't know why we're arguing? That we don't know the future of what events the current status quo is is what every book does, it certainly doesn't make whatever future they want be "fixed" in the timeline.[/QUOTE]

    Sorry , not arguing , just confused ! Too many alternative futures , past futures , future futures, pasts and retconned pasts for me !

  12. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Technology doesn’t “trump” it otherwise humans wouldn’t have needed to murder them by the millions and there would’ve been a contingency for Moira besides having to use the Phalanx to defeat her.
    It does, that's the entire premise of Moira's Endeavour with Xavier and Magneto on Krakoa, the Truth she learned from Life VI: technological leaps and scientific progress is what gives sapiens the edge.
    Mutantkind has to stay ahead of that wave, otherwise they'll be done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    There’s a reason he said “we would not tolerate something like you having power over something like us.”
    Double entendre.
    The priest referred to her as the representative of a dying branch of humanity, Something old and irrelevant, holding power over the dominant branch of it, Something new and strong.
    Or.
    The priest referred to her level of power, which is absolute and universal in nature, Something not tolerable for his people regardless of who's wielding it.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

    "No justice, no peace."

  13. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel909 View Post
    You've highlighted one of the most weird inconsistencies of the 616 humans . They are absolutely determined not to be replaced by mutants , their own children ,and yet are perfectly happy to be replaced by machines.
    Not necessarily.
    That priest and the people holding the same philosophy/religion than him about the Phalanx are just that: people holding a philosophy/religion.
    It's separate from the process who saw their creation and/or transformation.
    And said priest didn't welcome that Phalanx perspective with much enthusiast if we are being honest.
    Other example.
    We know enhanced sapiens like Captain America or Winter Soldier are templates for Hovo Novissimas, their transformation into superhumans and the philosophies/beliefs they hold are two separate things.
    And finally, there's Nothing more human than trying to transcend one's condition, one's limitations and limits: as a species, we strive for progress and betterment. Novissimas with designed and controlled traits are a seducing perspective for people, much more than the random chaos of mutations.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

    "No justice, no peace."

  14. #374
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    It does, that's the entire premise of Moira's Endeavour with Xavier and Magneto on Krakoa, the Truth she learned from Life VI: technological leaps and scientific progress is what gives sapiens the edge.
    Mutantkind has to stay ahead of that wave, otherwise they'll be done.
    Yeah......that’s Moira....

    Double entendre.
    The priest referred to her as the representative of a dying branch of humanity, Something old and irrelevant, holding power over the dominant branch of it, Something new and strong.
    Or.
    The priest referred to her level of power, which is absolute and universal in nature, Something not tolerable for his people regardless of who's wielding it.
    The very same issue shows that the homo novissima are just as much an evolution/offshoot of humanity as mutantkind. They aren’t a “dying branch” but something they need to overcome.

    You can mince words over what he meant all day but it’s distilled down to: “we can’t tolerate a mutant still being more powerful than us, therefore we need something else entirely that will ensure you’re dead and gone.”

    Who wields the power is the whole point. Moira was born with this incredible power in the process of natural evolution, something the homo novissima wants to prove is inferior yet can’t without the Phalanx.

  15. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Yeah......that’s Moira....



    The very same issue shows that the homo novissima are just as much an evolution/offshoot of humanity as mutantkind. They aren’t a “dying branch” but something they need to overcome.
    Novisimmas did overcome mutantkind and are the dominant branch of humanity on their Earth, and mutantkind is a dying branch of humanity on said Earth, the Novissimas litteraly parked the last mutants into this dome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    You can mince words over what he meant all day but it’s distilled down to: “we can’t tolerate a mutant still being more powerful than us, therefore we need something else entirely that will ensure you’re dead and gone.”
    No, not a mutant specifically. Someone with a power so impactful on them. That priest specifically refer to Moira the individual, not Moira the mutant.
    Moira would be a vampire, an atlantean or a Skrull, he'd be saying the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Who wields the power is the whole point. Moira was born with this incredible power in the process of natural evolution, something the homo novissima wants to prove is inferior yet can’t without the Phalanx.
    Huh? They already proved that by winning their conflict against mutantkind and having dominion over Earth and its solar system.
    So this it's not about proving anything to anyone, the Novissimas just Don't want all their achievements and plans to be undone, that's all.
    That's why they were planning to ship Moira off-world.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

    "No justice, no peace."

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