X-Men/Fantastic Four #3 Discussion

[Iron Maiden]

I feel it’s unfair to excuse the actions of the majority because a small number of that majority aren’t terrible to the minority...

Where exactly are you getting your "data" from to make this assessment?

[zinderel]

Who's to say their the majority? If anything their just the loudest? Just because you have a select group screaming hate that doesn't translate to the whole world.

When all you see is masses screaming for blood, you don’t spend much time wondering how the people complacently sitting by and saying nothing feel. You assume that they agree with the loud people but aren’t energetic or committed enough. You assume the complacence supports violence until and unless they say otherwise. Just like saying ‘the majority of Germany weren’t Nazis’ ignores the reality that that same majority was SILENT while Nazis committed atrocities in their name, which makes them absolutely complicit.

[Journey]

death threw a tantrum over it, so its ressurections.

Is it though aren't their like 2 Vulkings running around at the moment? Wasn't sunspot chilling with the dead in War of Realms? Sooner or later someone's gonna have an existential crisis. Probably my only 2 peeves with Krakoa Krakoa resurrection, and leadership both need improvement.

[Veitha]

So what exactly is this "standard" you are talking about that applies only to mutants? The thing with the X-Men as a franchise is they were always more or less school aged teens/young adults and so they were not in the world of business and industry, except I guess if you count Warren Worthington's family. So by default they did not make a economic contribution to society. Tony and Reed contribute both in the superhero sense and in the sense that they contribute to society via their business dealings. Reed isn't involved in manufacturing but he does hold patents on his creations. I don't recall if he has any that are for domestic use.

The standard is that people (like I've said in previous posts in this thread) expect mutants to help humanity while humanity has mostly done harm to mutants. You also expect them to share their tech and inventions (I've seen some people even criticize them for not giving out the drugs for free lol) while usually it is not the same for countries like Wakanda. Krakoa is a country, and as such they're going to look at their interests first. But, unlike Latveria and Wakanda, they're also still helping humans.

[Zelena]

That's because you haven't read the comic. The mutants on Doom Island were scared of Doom and what he might have done to them if they decided to go to Krakoa, and they were also forcibly taken to Doom Island after trying to get to Krakoa.

Then, it's a simple treatment of a complex issue.

[Kurolegacy]

And not sharing the resurrection protocols with humanity helps prevent the collapse of human religions - the majority of which rely on the promise of heaven or hell to keep followers in line - or the inevitable existential crises of immortality. So mutants are doing the human world a favor by not sharing that they beat death. AND they’re doing their own people a favor by bringing back those whose lives were cruelly taken at the hands of humans or their weapons.

Win-win!

Shouldn’t the fact that there are literal gods that walk among them such as Thor or Hercules do the exact same thing when it comes to the religious? It’s not even as though their legitimacy can be disputed given that there was literally a time that Asgard was floating above an American city and beings of the other realms recently poured onto Earth attempting to conquer it. Of course the MU has also presented that there is an actual heaven and Hell with numerous heroes actually visiting both so really no religion is wrong.

Even in regards to it being there to keep them in line, they quite often see the heroes die only to come back. You’d think that would cause at least some of the masses to act more recklessly.

[zinderel]

Where exactly are you getting your "data" from to make this assessment?

Well, mostly? From the comics I’ve been reading for 30 + years. Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, Avengers, X-Men and the rest. Repeatedly show humanity to be either violent hateful bigots at the slightest provocation, or ignorant, complacent trash. Once in a while, we get humanity cheering when the heroes save the world, but it’s less than a year before they’re back to their old tricks of electing supervillains and demanding to know personal information about the heroes that can easily be used against them, or calling for the genocide of an entire race (or lazily shrugging when others do so in their name)...

[Journey]

When all you see is masses screaming for blood, you don’t spend much time wondering how the people complacently sitting by and saying nothing feel. You assume that they agree with the loud people but aren’t energetic or committed enough. You assume the complacence supports violence until and unless they say otherwise. Just like saying ‘the majority of Germany weren’t Nazis’ ignores the reality that that same majority was SILENT while Nazis committed atrocities in their name, which makes them absolutely complicit.

Okay Germany was a shitshow run by a psychopath who gathered people up in clusters and burned them alive, and had them running death marches across the country. No one in their right mind was speaking out against that. Not speaking up for what you think is wrong doesn't make you complicit, if anything it makes you weak.

[zinderel]

Shouldn’t the fact that there are literal gods that walk among them such as Thor or Hercules do the exact same thing when it comes to the religious? It’s not even as though their legitimacy can be disputed given that there was literally a time that Asgard was floating above an American city and beings of the other realms recently poured onto Earth attempting to conquer it. Of course the MU has also presented that there is an actual heaven and Hell with numerous heroes actually visiting both so really no religion is wrong.

Even in regards to it being there to keep them in line, they quite often see the heroes die only to come back. You’d think that would cause at least some of the masses to act more recklessly.

In a rational world, sure. But it’s well established that 616 humanity doesn’t really ‘get’ rational thought. They shrug Thor’s godhood aside with the ‘technologically advanced alien’ explanation and move on. Because he’s a hot, white blonde guy with abs and his own hair. If Thor had, say...blue skin? An extra set of eyes or arms? Scales? 616 Humanity would have starved him to death decades ago.

[Iron Maiden]

And Spider-Man for decades. And Fantastic Four. And Avengers.

Every single one of these has shown how terrible 616 humanity is, whether it’s pushing for anti-hero legislation, painting heroes with the same brush as villains, putting KNOWN supervillains and monsters IN CHARGE of governments or organizations, creating ‘mutant cures’, turning on a filthy Kree half-breed in favor of a poorly dressed false hero, or evicting the First Family and confiscating their tech REPEATEDLY, or all of New stork believing Spider-Man is a criminal...

All of 616 humanity is crappy, with a very small percentage bucking the trend.

That is a skewed view of things. Of course we see unsavory people as a source of conflict in a superhero story. There is no conflict in dealing with the good people of Earth Prime. Eventually the bad get their just desserts.....Norman Osborn went off his rocker and was confined. I think he's on the loose again but that's the cycle of things in an ongoing series. Just like the Joker always gets out of Arkham.

The Fantastic Four are living right on Yancy Street and they get along with the neighbors just fine. They have block parties and stuff.

[Lucyinthesky]

Yes, the resurrections does take you into some issues dealing with religious beliefs. The comic book world usually skirts around religious beliefs. Most famously Doctor Doom and Doctor Strange were able to achieve the redemption of Cynthia Von Doom's soul. But was it redemption in the Biblical sense or in the superhero sense of rescuing her from Mephisto's realm? It is left to the reader to decide. What was that entity that we saw in Infamous Iron Man? Was in her soul or was it a creation of Mephisto's...probably the latter. It was kind of weird and funny that Ben thought she looked hot.

I saw Cynthia rescue very similar as kind of orpheus and eurydice myth that got a happy ending given she was freed even if she didn´t like her son anymore so that was Victor sacrifice to rescue her. MU also uses those different realms as different dimensions so they can exist along with all that modern techonology, super human and God beings that live in the MU. Kurt himself choose to get back to earth after being in heaven because he wanted to keep helping the X-men and also he wanted some adventure. Marvel still doesn´t make clear how all this Works on their wolrd. That´s why I think that if the X-men are really partially inmortal now and can resurrect themselves anytime now then it would make sense for "Death" to come looking into their home and scold them for playing with the natural laws or something

[Kurolegacy]

Is it though aren't their like 2 Vulkings running around at the moment? Wasn't sunspot chilling with the dead in War of Realms? Sooner or later someone's gonna have an existential crisis. Probably my only 2 peeves with Krakoa Krakoa resurrection, and leadership both need improvement.

You ask me, the way that the resurrection protocols should have been issued was in the event that someone was killed or died in a way that wasn’t natural causes. It should not be used to make themselves immortal in the sense of never dying but rather letting them fully live their lives.

[zinderel]

Okay Germany was a shitshow run by a psychopath who gathered people up in clusters and burned them alive, and had them running death marches across the country. No one in their right mind was speaking out against that. Not speaking up for what you think is wrong doesn't make you complicit, if anything it makes you weak.

When you fail to speak up for what you believe is right, you are weak. And complicit in any actions that take place in your name.

People outside of Germany knew what Hitler was doing, and did nothing. Influential people like Henry Ford and Prescott Bush worked hard to keep politicians silent and kept the masses ignorant. Meanwhile, America was still DEEPLY anti-Semitic well into the 40’s, with a large swath of citizens believing Hitler was right to put the Jews in camps. Hitler and the Nazis were not some tiny outlier, nor did they rise to power in a vacuum. They had the active and complacent assistance of the majority in acting out their horrors.

Christianity has vilified and demonized LGBT+ people for CENTURIES. Calling for our VIOLENT deaths, blaming us for EVERY disease, famine, natural disaster, anytime a progressive policy or person is in danger of winning...and I keep being told that ‘It’s not ALL Christians, just the loud ones! Some christian denominations even embrace gay people!’ And all I think about is where were those churches during the AIDS epidemic? Where where those Christians after 9/11, when Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson blames gay people? Where are they now, when their leaders are blaming us for the Coronavirus? Where are they when their leaders call us pedophiles? Say our families aren’t legitimate? Where are they when their leaders call for us to be stoned in the streets? Or that our ‘blood should be upon [us]’ for our sinfulness? Where are the ‘good’ Christians to counteract the powerful voices of their leaders? They are ALL complicit in the actions of their leaders and their loudest brethren.

616 humanity is the same, on a larger scale.

[Iron Maiden]

I saw Cynthia rescue very similar as kind of orpheus and eurydice myth that got a happy ending given she was freed even if she didn´t like her son anymore so that was Victor sacrifice to rescue her. MU also uses those different realms as different dimensions so they can exist along with all that modern techonology, super human and God beings that live in the MU. Kurt himself choose to get back to earth after being in heaven because he wanted to keep helping the X-men and also he wanted some adventure. Marvel still doesn´t make clear how all this Works on their wolrd. That´s why I think that if the X-men are really partially inmortal now and can resurrect themselves anytime now then it would make sense for "Death" to come looking into their home and scold them for playing with the natural laws or something

And Doom owes Mistress Death after she resurrected him when Taskmaster shot him in the head. This could get very interesting. We don't know what she will demand, if anything

[zinderel]

That is a skewed view of things. Of course we see unsavory people as a source of conflict in a superhero story. There is no conflict in dealing with the good people of Earth Prime. Eventually the bad get their just desserts.....Norman Osborn went off his rocker and was confined. I think he's on the loose again but that's the cycle of things in an ongoing series. Just like the Joker always gets out of Arkham.

The Fantastic Four are living right on Yancy Street and they get along with the neighbors just fine. They have block parties and stuff.

It is the view you take when looking at humanity through mutant eyes. *shrug* It’s the humanity we are presented in our stories, over and over.

And the Joker was never put in charge of an international security and espionage force. Nor has he been made mayor, or put in charge of a mental hospital. Norman Osborne has. Greyson Creed almost became President before his mother assassinated him. Mutantkind sees humanity as wanting them dead. And humanity has done nothing but prove them right. Over and over and over and over and over and...

I am able to see this from their perspective because I know what it is like to be part of a vilified, demonized, oppressed minority who regularly deals with calls for violence and eradication.