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  1. #1
    Mighty Member
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    Default At what point do you think writers were trying to "fix" Superman

    One of those phrases slung around so often but I'm not really convinced most people actually believe in it and rather use as a sort of nerd rank pulling or something. But I'm curious when do you think DC was actively trying to fix the character?
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  2. #2
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    MOS and Birthright, obvs. Return to Krypton. New 52. Rebirth. Superman Y2K. Basically anytime they tried to change his history or "improve" him by changing some major aspect of his environment. Even things like Doomsday Clock where his parents were brought back could count as trying to "fix" him.
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  3. #3
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    All of the origin retellings were pretty clearly aimed at trying to “fix” him, starting with Byrne. Byrne’s mandate was to “Marvelize” Superman and he pursued that objective with gusto. Toning down the power levels, getting rid of the “silly” stuff like multicolored Kryptonite, and trying to play up the “lone survivor” tragedy by eliminating all other Kryptonians.

    But even the reboots I like such as Birthright and New 52 were aimed at “fixing” him by showing that no, he actually isn’t just a boring perfect character. He has flaws and emotions and quirks of his own. What poor DC fails to realize is that the people deriding him as “perfect” have never read anything with him in it and never will. Those people have written him off and nothing except maybe an acclaimed movie or video game will change their minds. Doesn’t matter how many books they put out that have him **** up or be flawed if the deriders never bother to read them. Not to say that everyone who dislikes him simply hasn’t read him, but the majority of the popular complaints are clearly the product of people who have never read a comic.

    Of course besides trying to “fix” his popular image there’s also simply a power struggle about what Superman “should be” and that’s something that divides along lines like “Should the Kents be alive?”, “Should Clark remember Krypton?”, etc. And we see that with Johns trying to roll things back to what he views as “ideal” in DDC.

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    People started fixing him when focus shifted from action and he started becoming boring . They say this shift was necessary because distinguished competition was starting to beat them. But, they were trying to beat the competition by playing their game with their rules.They also believe superman lore, powers and story can't be eye-catching or cool to bring in enough new numbers. Which is another reason why it was done.

    With batman his cynicism was sold in a badass way. With spidey, he was the average guy sold as "the amazing spiderman". Clark's optimism kinda rings hollow many times. It isn't sold as true optimism nor does he come of bad ass. He isn't viewed as the risk taker and rightfully so,he isn't Written like that. He is written to have a stick up his ass.

    His action and battles sucks . His stories are pointless when other characters do the same with better depth.His powers, movements.. Etc are boring. Ofcourse, writers try to fix him. If someone like al ewing comes around takes the entire lore Starting from the core, shifts perspective back or gives a new one. Then i would be all for it.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 03-25-2020 at 11:33 PM.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member Dispenser Of Truth's Avatar
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    At least as far back as 1971 with Kryptonite Nevermore.
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  6. #6
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    Needs to be fixed now after Bendis lol.

  7. #7
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    People started fixing him when focus shifted from action and he started becoming boring . They say this shift was necessary because distinguished competition was starting to beat them.
    DC is called the Distinguished Competition.

    But like Dispenser said, O'Neil was probably the first conscious effort. Then arguably Wolfman about a decade later.
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  8. #8
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    They've been trying to "fix" Superman for ages, thinking he's broken. Or "update" or "modernize" him. Your basic, classic Superman doesn't need any "help" IMO, but everyone seems to think they can do better.

  9. #9
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    DC is called the Distinguished Competition.

    But like Dispenser said, O'Neil was probably the first conscious effort. Then arguably Wolfman about a decade later.
    I know, i was just having fun with it. I mean, competition goes both ways.marvel did started beating them around the time as well. Dc hasn't been able to take back the crown. I don't know if it's coincidence but dc's success is kinda tied to superman.When he started becoming less popular.dc itself started lossing steam. Even the movie universe is kinda in this wierd mess right now. superman needs a reinvention that enhances it's core concept .
    Quote Originally Posted by achilles View Post
    They've been trying to "fix" Superman for ages, thinking he's broken. Or "update" or "modernize" him. Your basic, classic Superman doesn't need any "help" IMO, but everyone seems to think they can do better.
    No offence, if you mean by "classic" superman the guy that has no impact and is safe. A guy that is written to be non-dangerous.The guy that goes around giving his talks. Then well, i disagree. Otherwise, core concept and the world that was built is plenty to work with.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 03-26-2020 at 08:15 AM.

  10. #10
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    The O'Neil soft reboot was likely the first overt attempt to fix what was "wrong" with him. I think it really didn't become a problem until Miller turned him into a joke with Dark Knight Returns. From that point on I think most writers have at least been subconsciously writing against the warped caricature Miller used there. Once that settled into the public consciousness it's pretty much been the norm to write against that in one way or the other to "fix" the problems Miller created.

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    The O'Neil soft reboot was likely the first overt attempt to fix what was "wrong" with him. I think it really didn't become a problem until Miller turned him into a joke with Dark Knight Returns. From that point on I think most writers have at least been subconsciously writing against the warped caricature Miller used there. Once that settled into the public consciousness it's pretty much been the norm to write against that in one way or the other to "fix" the problems Miller created.
    Well, what miller found wasn't exactly wrong. Any guy that reads superman #53, will say wth is this nonsense. The mentality of superman has been that of a guy who takes and follows orders to t has been building since then. A father on his death bed is advising his kid to be a vigilante. And the contradiction is this, he wants him to fight in cooperation with the law(i can see why this was necessary. I mean, for kids) . So, i won't blame miller for calling a spade a spade. The character had started falling into a routine of this.The issue was written by bill finger, i believe .
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 03-26-2020 at 08:40 AM.

  12. #12
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    The comics code required that police and other authority figures be shown in a good light at the time. So it's not like the status quo for Superman was any different than any other character. It was Miller's warping of that that stuck. Superman wasn't a lackey to corrupt politicians any more than Batman was the psycho Miller created in DKR's. That was an invention of Miller.

  13. #13
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    The idea of Miller being a "subconscious influence" for writers who don't cite him just sounds like a way to stick him to things one doesn't like. Miller's story was an alternate future created without the reboot in mind. It's pretty much the opposite of DoFP in every way where Superman is concerned.
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  14. #14
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    The idea of Miller being a "subconscious influence" for writers who don't cite him just sounds like a way to stick him to things one doesn't like. Miller's story was an alternate future created without the reboot in mind. It's pretty much the opposite of DoFP in every way where Superman is concerned.
    DKR's is not just an alternate future story. It, along with Watchmen, are the single most influential comics of the last 40 years. It's driven the characterization of Batman (and Superman) for the last 4 decades. That is likely the most widely read portrayal of Superman that comic & non-comic fans see. It's influence on Superman is undeniable as that has become the portrayal that highlights all the issues people see with him.

  15. #15
    Ultimate Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    DKR influenced the Batman/Superman dynamic more than Superman himself. Major modern influences on Superman's perception are probably Donner and Byrne.

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