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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Yeah, but there's come a point where they might as well feature original characters (from an audience/fan perspective). What's the point of it being a BoP movie or going if you are fan of those (comic) characters? I mean, I get it from a business/IP perspective. But as a comic fan, why should I want to go or like it? If it's really successful more out-of-character movies I don't like get made and worst case those characterizations/backstories end up used in the comics. I'm no better off with comics I don't read than I am with no comics at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by LifeIsILL View Post
    Comic book accurate doesn't necessarily mean good.

    I can argue that the Green Lantern movie was more comic accurate than say.....Thor....one of them was a solid movie the other was trash.
    I'll echo what LifeIsILL said.

    Half of the time, even the comics don't agree with each other. I'm much more concerned if an adaptation manages to catch the spirit and personality of the characters.

    BoP most certainly managed to catch the attitudes and spirit of Harley Quinn, Renee Montoya, and Black Canary, as I see them. Who cares if Renee is a bit old, or Black Canary African-American, if it helps the story? Huntress I can't judge, but people I trust liked her. Cass was obviously the missed opportunity here. Black Mask and Victor Zsazs were suitably creepy.

    But I also don't want to judge a story only by the characters used. The story itself, and how the characters are used, matter far more. And all the characters fit with the story. It's most tightly plotted superhero movie I've seen. Not necessarily in the amount of discrete plot elements (though it has several), but in the way the plot elements and characters are all integrated and interacting.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  2. #32
    Incredible Member cgh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LifeIsILL View Post
    Comic book accurate doesn't necessarily mean good.

    I can argue that the Green Lantern movie was more comic accurate than say.....Thor....one of them was a solid movie the other was trash.
    Yes, and also comic book fans tend to vastly overestimate their market value. The number of people who read BoP regularly makes up a vanishingly small percentage of paying moviegoers. Who cares about their opinions? It's just economics. Focus on a cool movie first that captures the overall spirit of the enterprise and don't worry about disgruntled fans who fret about fidelity to the source material, which is often contradictory, confusing and burdened with long stretches of mediocrity.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgh View Post
    Yes, and also comic book fans tend to vastly overestimate their market value. The number of people who read BoP regularly makes up a vanishingly small percentage of paying moviegoers. Who cares about their opinions? It's just economics. Focus on a cool movie first that captures the overall spirit of the enterprise and don't worry about disgruntled fans who fret about fidelity to the source material, which is often contradictory, confusing and burdened with long stretches of mediocrity.
    Key point there is 'capture the spirit'.

  4. #34
    Mighty Member LordMikel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I'll echo what LifeIsILL said.

    Half of the time, even the comics don't agree with each other. I'm much more concerned if an adaptation manages to catch the spirit and personality of the characters.

    BoP most certainly managed to catch the attitudes and spirit of Harley Quinn, Renee Montoya, and Black Canary, as I see them. Who cares if Renee is a bit old, or Black Canary African-American, if it helps the story? Huntress I can't judge, but people I trust liked her. Cass was obviously the missed opportunity here. Black Mask and Victor Zsazs were suitably creepy.

    But I also don't want to judge a story only by the characters used. The story itself, and how the characters are used, matter far more. And all the characters fit with the story. It's most tightly plotted superhero movie I've seen. Not necessarily in the amount of discrete plot elements (though it has several), but in the way the plot elements and characters are all integrated and interacting.
    Here is my opinion on Cass. If they had gone with her comic origin, it would have been almost identical to Huntress origin, except for the ages being different. That might have been seen as repetitive and lazy writing. Now perhaps Cass could have simply been a different character that would better fit the role. A more minor character, but sadly it comes down to, do we have the argument for using Cass but badly, or not using Cass at all, and why not."
    I think restorative nostalgia is the number one issue with comic book fans.
    A fine distinction between two types of Nostalgia:

    Reflective Nostalgia allows us to savor our memories but accepts that they are in the past
    Restorative Nostalgia pushes back against the here and now, keeping us stuck trying to relive our glory days.

  5. #35
    Elektra Natchios vitaminbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordMikel View Post
    Here is my opinion on Cass. If they had gone with her comic origin, it would have been almost identical to Huntress origin, except for the ages being different. That might have been seen as repetitive and lazy writing. Now perhaps Cass could have simply been a different character that would better fit the role. A more minor character, but sadly it comes down to, do we have the argument for using Cass but badly, or not using Cass at all, and why not."
    They could have went with Holly Robinson for Cass and had her follow through to a Gotham City Sirens film.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordMikel View Post
    Here is my opinion on Cass. If they had gone with her comic origin, it would have been almost identical to Huntress origin, except for the ages being different. That might have been seen as repetitive and lazy writing. Now perhaps Cass could have simply been a different character that would better fit the role. A more minor character, but sadly it comes down to, do we have the argument for using Cass but badly, or not using Cass at all, and why not."
    They could have easily used Cass' origin and kept her basic character. Use her ala Jet Li from 'Unleashed'.

  7. #37
    Incredible Member cgh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Key point there is 'capture the spirit'.
    A fair point, and I pretty much was waving my arms around when I typed that. It's tough to define. I felt Nolan's Dark Knight movies captured the spirit of Batman, despite their departure from canon. And, believe it or not, same with Suicide Squad, which was ruined by a dumb script (and some terrible Croc makeup, good god) rather than a lack of fidelity.

    As for whether Birds of Prey captured the spirit, I felt it broadly did, despite the replacement of Oracle with HQ. Simone's run had conflicting personalities, violence and an aversion to government law enforcement and I thought the film basically got it. A comic-book-correct version of Cassandra Cain would have made for a difficult screen transition, I think, and Oracle would have been redundant and a bit of a drag on the film's momentum. But these are just my opinions and it's fair to think otherwise.

  8. #38
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    My theory on why a character with the same name as a comic character yet not the comics character appears in live action adaptations is that these treatments go through several drafts, changes and studio notes. So by the final draft, the story has changed so much that this character isn't the same as in the comics, but they don't bother to change the name. The opposite also happens, where they wrote the script with a specific comics character in mind, but then they aren't allowed to use that character, so they change the name to a different comics character but everything about the original concept stays the same.
    “Th-th-th-that's all folks!”

  9. #39
    Death becomes you Osiris-Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitaminbee View Post
    They could have went with Holly Robinson for Cass and had her follow through to a Gotham City Sirens film.
    Don't like the idea of introducing her before Selina Kyle is introduced.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris-Rex View Post
    Don't like the idea of introducing her before Selina Kyle is introduced.
    Wouldn't harm her character at all.

    This movie did undermine Cass a lot

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgh View Post
    A fair point, and I pretty much was waving my arms around when I typed that. It's tough to define. I felt Nolan's Dark Knight movies captured the spirit of Batman, despite their departure from canon. And, believe it or not, same with Suicide Squad, which was ruined by a dumb script (and some terrible Croc makeup, good god) rather than a lack of fidelity.

    As for whether Birds of Prey captured the spirit, I felt it broadly did, despite the replacement of Oracle with HQ. Simone's run had conflicting personalities, violence and an aversion to government law enforcement and I thought the film basically got it. A comic-book-correct version of Cassandra Cain would have made for a difficult screen transition, I think, and Oracle would have been redundant and a bit of a drag on the film's momentum. But these are just my opinions and it's fair to think otherwise.
    Except Suicide Squad never captures the Spirit of the good run and Croc's make-up was awesome

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by batnbreakfast View Post
    Except Suicide Squad never captures the Spirit of the good run and Croc's make-up was awesome
    Agree about spirit of the first. They had some moments copped from the first, but that was it. They allowed the high profile stars to hijack it and make it all about them.

  13. #43
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgh View Post
    A comic-book-correct version of Cassandra Cain would have made for a difficult screen transition, I think, and Oracle would have been redundant and a bit of a drag on the film's momentum.
    I think a Harley movie wouldn't have much room for Oracle unless the whole movie was about the conflict over the Joker. I don't think it would have been redundant - it would have required smarter writing, though (spirit or not, the writing for BoP was profoundly dumb, relying on "it's the main character" for "why does this happen" at most key plot points).

    I do not think that comics Cass would be that hard at all. There's tons of characters who use similar elements in movies without much of a problem. Now, a comics Cass might require more than a cliched kid sidekick in terms of writing, but see point one for that.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  14. #44
    Incredible Member cgh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batnbreakfast View Post
    Except Suicide Squad never captures the Spirit of the good run and Croc's make-up was awesome
    Haha, I thought he looked like a green version of the ever-lovin' Thing. And his head was a gigantic melon. But hey, to each their own.

  15. #45
    Incredible Member cgh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I think a Harley movie wouldn't have much room for Oracle unless the whole movie was about the conflict over the Joker. I don't think it would have been redundant - it would have required smarter writing, though (spirit or not, the writing for BoP was profoundly dumb, relying on "it's the main character" for "why does this happen" at most key plot points).

    I do not think that comics Cass would be that hard at all. There's tons of characters who use similar elements in movies without much of a problem. Now, a comics Cass might require more than a cliched kid sidekick in terms of writing, but see point one for that.
    Well, she hardly speaks, which is kind of an issue in film. Obviously it's doable but it would require a more nuanced approach than you find in a typical comic book movie. I do agree that her movie character was pretty jarring.

    Re the writing, the script was not brilliant. But I find most comic book movies to be more or less nonsense. The pattern was set by the Marvel movies, which feature witty chit-chat between massive set-pieces. Character-driven films with relatable motivations are thin on the ground. Weirdly, I think Deadpool actually got a lot of things right.

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