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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Bifrost View Post
    Preach! Bruce Wayne was an extremely intelligent man who focused his studies on detective work, and was the best at it in the world. He was pretty good at a lot of other things.

    Now? He's so good at everything I've lost track. He's busy designing cloning technology and neuro-computer advancements to download himself into the next Batman. He's one of the creators of Brother Eye. He induced an alternate personality in himself to emerge at a key time. Detective work? Who's got time?

    There was this moment in The New 52 Earth-2 where the Batman of that world reassured the Wonder Woman of that world that he had his supercomputers searching for her lost daughter. And I thought, "Supercomputers? How about you actually do some detective work, Gotham Gumshoe?" And, although it was a parallel world, and it's about two reboots ago, that was the moment when my interest in the current-day conception of what a Batman is plummeted. And hasn't recovered.
    At the risk of coming across like I'm defending Batgod, detective work these days is very different from what it was when Batman was created. New technology is going to make detecting a lot more different.

    Then again, given how obvious Batman's villains are, it doesn't take the genius of Sherlock Holmes to solve a typical Batman crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Yeah, I still side with Tim's dad. Scolding batman was stupid... but reporting him to the cops or media is completely legit. His job is to protect his kid... and as much good as he does as Robin, Bruce quite literally trained him to take the place of another young boy who was beaten with a crowbar and blown up by a psychotic clown. In the DC universe Robin was currently the most dangerous position in the world... Heck they even retconned Dick getting fired after Robin was shot in teh line of duty.

    Frankly the best thing he could have done, was grab the kid, move to california... or France or something that gets him completely away from Bruce.

    But that whole time I can just picture Bruce thinking to himself... 'Orphans... this is why Orphans are better.... "





    YES!!!

    Yep, the batman i love is pretty much dead when he's rebuilding Red Tornado, buildign teleporters and creating mech-suits to punch out Darkseid. Personally I blame Oracle. Right or wrong that's when i really noticed him giving any and all detective work a backseat. Why do any research or thinking when you can get oracle on the line and just ask her for the information... and then from a distance she'll hack the security, unlock the door, and erase the footage. All Batman has to do is growl and punch people.
    Detective work is not a solo act. It requires asking questions and employing experts because you don't know everything and relying on your own limited knowledge is a good way to bungle a case by letting your own bias influence you.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 03-28-2020 at 12:18 AM.

  2. #47
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    I think bruce power creep was inevitable. He was never meant to be realistic, Not that he can't be. For him to be realistic many of the aspects and attributes have to be heavily downplayed or changed.Ofcourse, he will become ironman and beat up darkseid.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 03-28-2020 at 12:20 AM.

  3. #48
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I think bruce power creep was inevitable. He was never meant to be realistic, Not that he can't be. For him to be realistic many of the aspects and attributes have to be heavily downplayed or changed.Ofcourse, he will become ironman and beat up darkseid.
    Fine, but then don't try and build him up as just a man or our table at the seat of gods. He's just as ridiculous as Superman. DC should own it and stop pushing the guy who built a suit to take on Darkseid as street level.

    He ain't anymore.

  4. #49
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Fine, but then don't try and build him up as just a man or our table at the seat of gods. He's just as ridiculous as Superman. DC should own it and stop pushing the guy who built a suit to take on Darkseid as street level.

    He ain't anymore.
    It would also help if they flushed most of his rogues gallery too. You can't have a demigod go toe to toe with superman and darkseid... then have him be threatened and concerned about a deranged clown. Penguin, Two-face, Riddler... They're all pointless once the power-creep gets out of control.

  5. #50
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Fine, but then don't try and build him up as just a man or our table at the seat of gods. He's just as ridiculous as Superman. DC should own it and stop pushing the guy who built a suit to take on Darkseid as street level.

    He ain't anymore.
    The thing is, dc isn't the one who sees him as the human. They clearly treat him as a god or ubermensch at the very least. His villains for the most part aren't, either. The are monstrous .it's his fans and his readers that still argue that batman is human and superman is not. Maybe, its because superman does the jesus pose and asks people to follow his example to an annoying degree.besides, bruce's power creeps have him be working to get it and there is also pain factor,which is human. The armour can kills. His hellbat armour, is sort of like the berserker armour guts wears (who is a comparable character) . Bruce from a modern standpoint is pretty nietzschian in concept. He is the ubermensch. He is beyond a man and has was walked past the tight rope(state of being a man) from being an animal.


    Guts is human, too. These guys are about beating up dead gods or messiah's that preach aka superman. Batman became that the minute the likes of miller and moore took him to a more existentialist interpretation.

    Bruce by modern standards isn't about staying human. It's about becoming the next step of human evolution. That doesn't mean he is god. Power isn't a man's birth right. It isn't for bruce as well. For modern "classic" superman, it is. He just has to bathe in sun,He is god. He is untouched by sin. Bruce turns all his negatives he has to push himself up. That's the neitzschian notion.

    I won't deny though conceptually modern batman and guts of berserk are the similar. But in writing, guts is way better. Guts is much more complex and vulnerable. Gut's compassion always comes through. While, many a times bruces doesn't. He just broods.Ofcourse,berserk is one man's idea. Batman on the otherhand is not.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 03-28-2020 at 01:40 AM.

  6. #51
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurz View Post
    Morrison and you are minority... I mean, do i need to remind you the Batman sales numbers and Superman sales numbers ? Superman can't even sell like Batman in his wildest dream. People love that damaged Batman, hell even the all entire animated series universe of Paul Dini, Bruce Timm, Alan Brunett built around that Batman. That Batman is my childhood. Frank Miller knows how to make a character complex... And his influance is above anything when it comes to Batman.

    Miller realised it's kind of emo so he made a different Batman in All Star Batman anyway... a ruthless evil guy who enjoyes being Batman but that didn't catch, actually quite the opposite. lol Damaged Batman is something special that grabs the character from his core. Even if when you grow up, you found it overly melodramatic at some point... There is nothing better in Super hero comics.


    I love your chritopher Reeve Superman avatar btw... He's the one true Superman.
    Thanks.

    I totally get that the emo douchenozzle interpretation of Batman sells. It's just not my cup of tea. As my avatar may suggest, I'm more a fan of heroes who are more light and optimistic. There's enough misery in the world already, so I have very little interest in characters who revel in the worst parts of humanity. I much prefer reading more aspirational heroes, even if I understand that, for a lot of readers, they'd much rather read darker stuff.

  7. #52
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Preach! Bruce Wayne was an extremely intelligent man who focused his studies on detective work, and was the best at it in the world. He was pretty good at a lot of other things.

    Now? He's so good at everything I've lost track. He's busy designing cloning technology and neuro-computer advancements to download himself into the next Batman. He's one of the creators of Brother Eye. He induced an alternate personality in himself to emerge at a key time. Detective work? Who's got time?
    I do agree. I particularly am not fond of him as THE tactician (in the sense of coming up with most of the plans for the JL,etc.). Mostly, I'm sure because, because it lends itself to PrepGod. But partially because in the old days, that wasn't a major thing with him. Did he have tactical skill - yes. So did all the other heros. In the sense of how they individually approach a villain or defeat their schemes, usually. But now when they are together he's like super-strategist and tactician, a brilliant general making all the battle plans, etc. while everyone else follows orders or fails. Bruce was always a very good chemist, I'll grant them that. It's not that he can't be very good at more than one thing. It's him the best at everything (or even him as a leader at all) that I do not prefer. Actual detecting seems like something we don't see much anymore.

    But that whole time I can just picture Bruce thinking to himself... 'Orphans... this is why Orphans are better.... "
    That really is hilarious, just wanted to let you know.

    Yep, the batman i love is pretty much dead when he's rebuilding Red Tornado, buildign teleporters and creating mech-suits to punch out Darkseid. Personally I blame Oracle. Right or wrong that's when i really noticed him giving any and all detective work a backseat. Why do any research or thinking when you can get oracle on the line and just ask her for the information... and then from a distance she'll hack the security, unlock the door, and erase the footage. All Batman has to do is growl and punch people.
    I don't like him building teleporters or rebuilding Red Tornado. He simply should not have that degree of scientific skill to me. While good at a variety of scientific skills, he should not be to-50-in-world at robotics or engineering or genetics or whatnot to me. I do agree that everyone managed their own tech work before Oracle. I like her leading the BoP, rather than doing that for them. It reduces their skill sets, or else makes her feel like she's being given "make work" since they did their own berforehand, and makes her feel like an employee of them to me, none of which works for me.

    I don't even feel like Oracle does detective work either (even though she also used to be a fantastic detective). Way too often it's just "found the information via hacking" (Oracle could be the source or not) with no actual investigation, without getting into the field and talking to people and finding anything out that way. It's dull to read about. I also really don't care for (and it's really old) the last minute reveal that the hero knew all from the start. It's the sort of thing that's fun once, but really dull afterwards. It's much more fun to watch the hero discover the truth bit by bit. Sometimes even cheaty because earlier the hero reacted in such ways (in private) that make little sense with them already knowing. And, IMO, such stories have little re-reading appeal. Which may be a plus for DC, I guess, since then you buy more comics instead of re-reading old ones.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 03-28-2020 at 06:20 AM.

  8. #53
    Three Legged Member married guy's Avatar
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    It was funny.
    I was reading some Batman comics from the late 70's and early 80's a while ago, and there were a number of times where I would put the book down and just think "Man, there is NO way Batman would be written like this today."
    He was shown on the streets doing detective work. Interrogating suspects and occasionally being bested in battle (although he'd always win the rematch).
    I can't remember the last time Batman didn't have the answer for everything.
    He's gone from an educated man who worked for years to become an accomplished detective and martial artist, to a genetic engineer, physicist, bio mechanic, chemist, uber martial arts master who has more gadgets than Adam West stashed in his utility belt.
    Ugh!
    "My name is Wally West. I'm the fastest man alive!"
    I'll try being nicer if you try being smarter.

  9. #54
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by married guy View Post
    It was funny.
    I was reading some Batman comics from the late 70's and early 80's a while ago, and there were a number of times where I would put the book down and just think "Man, there is NO way Batman would be written like this today."
    He was shown on the streets doing detective work. Interrogating suspects and occasionally being bested in battle (although he'd always win the rematch).
    I can't remember the last time Batman didn't have the answer for everything.
    He's gone from an educated man who worked for years to become an accomplished detective and martial artist, to a genetic engineer, physicist, bio mechanic, chemist, uber martial arts master who has more gadgets than Adam West stashed in his utility belt.
    Ugh!
    What's better is that every new sidekick and villain is elevated to his level. Makes you wonder why Bruce trained for 15-20 years if a 15 year old can match him. Same with Dick Grayson. DC is so focused on making everyone special in the Bat family that nobody feels that way. There's a great moment in Batgirl: Year One where Dick is trying to explain how they fought an actual vampire once and it dawns on Barbara that the Dynamic Duo are simply on another level. She's a new crimefighter, so of course she's not at their level at that time. It gave her a real sense of progression to contrast with her skill as an experienced Batgirl.

    Now it feels like they get a costume and are already at Dick's level.

    Part of what I like about Steph Brown is she absolutely is not at the level of the rest of them. She's fun to read because she can make mistakes and learn from them. It's not a foregone conclusion that she's going to best a threat because of some nonsense.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    What's better is that every new sidekick and villain is elevated to his level. Makes you wonder why Bruce trained for 15-20 years if a 15 year old can match him. Same with Dick Grayson. DC is so focused on making everyone special in the Bat family that nobody feels that way. There's a great moment in Batgirl: Year One where Dick is trying to explain how they fought an actual vampire once and it dawns on Barbara that the Dynamic Duo are simply on another level. She's a new crimefighter, so of course she's not at their level at that time. It gave her a real sense of progression to contrast with her skill as an experienced Batgirl.

    Now it feels like they get a costume and are already at Dick's level.

    Part of what I like about Steph Brown is she absolutely is not at the level of the rest of them. She's fun to read because she can make mistakes and learn from them. It's not a foregone conclusion that she's going to best a threat because of some nonsense.
    No they aren't. The only three sidekicks that could be considered on Bruce's level are Dick, Tim and Cass and that in only in one area each (leadership for Dick, detective work for Tim and martial arts for Cass). Bruce easily surpasses them in other areas.

  11. #56
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    No they aren't. The only three sidekicks that could be considered on Bruce's level are Dick, Tim and Cass and that in only in one area each (leadership for Dick, detective work for Tim and martial arts for Cass). Bruce easily surpasses them in other areas.
    Actually i think, damian trumps bruce in talent and potential. He was born into that world. Jason is more resourceful and can take a beating better. I also like to think that jason would be able to go the extra mile bruce isn't able to,in every way.

  12. #57
    Extraordinary Member Robotman's Avatar
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    Jade cheating on Kyle while he was in space risking his life. Hated her for years after that. It’s silly but I still don’t like the character.

  13. #58
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotman View Post
    Jade cheating on Kyle while he was in space risking his life. Hated her for years after that. It’s silly but I still don’t like the character.
    I forgot about that until just now. Dammit, Robotman.

  14. #59
    Mighty Member Rise's Avatar
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    Tomasi makes it very hard for me to like Damian sometimes. He is actually the reason why I'm so-so about the character.

    In every story I read with Steph, I find her extermly insufferable. Still, I think she has potential to be a good character.
    ďAny fool can criticize, condemn, and complain but it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving.Ē
    Ė Dale Carnegie

  15. #60
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    Tomasi makes it very hard for me to like Damian sometimes. He is actually the reason why I'm so-so about the character.

    In every story I read with Steph, I find her extermly insufferable. Still, I think she has potential to be a good character.
    I'm curious as to what you dislike about each of those. I'm particularly interested because both are character two fairly distinct characterizations, and I'm wondering if it's a trait the characterizations share or differ on you dislike. Obviously, all characters are bit different, writer-to-writer an over time, but I feel this a lot about Steph (for whom I very much favor earlier characterization), and have heard similar about Damian, who I haven't read as much of.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 03-29-2020 at 07:02 AM.

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