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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member Ferro's Avatar
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    mags is more than fine now luv, and this is the x-forums what happens to avenger characthers is beyond my worry

  2. #32
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    You're right that the Avengers haven't handled it well when the public tide turns against some of them, but when you start talking of one being superior I have to disagree. And two of those threats you mentioned involved mutants, Xavier and Scarlett Witch. I'm still counting her because she was considered a mutant when the worst of her stuff happened, and that retcon was stupid and hurt her, her brother, and Magneto's characters a lot. Banner and Pym have rock-bottom reputations (Pym in AND out of universe!)

    Mutants have the problem of its harder for the public to tell the 'bad' ones from the 'good' ones. Which I suppose is supposed to be a commentary on racism or something. Basically, when other heroes do something wrong, the blame usually falls on them, individually. When a mutant character does something wrong, all mutants are blamed.
    You do raise a good point. The mutants-as-minority metaphor is a commentary on prejudice and privilege and how they can go hand in hand, where individuals from the dominant group are judged as that, individuals, while collective guilt is assigned to less dominant groups when one of theirs does something wrong. I'll personally admit that when written well, both the Avengers and X-Men are equally great, though in different ways; it's just the high-handed hypocrisy and sanctimony with which the Avengers' misdeeds and failures are excused both in-universe and by editorial while the X-Men get pilloried over and over that doesn't sit well with me.
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  3. #33
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    How is it when it comes to mental health every god dam hero group handles it horrible. You'd think after years of fans complain how mental health is portrayed it's still handled badly.

  4. #34
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    I'd add Iceman, Havok and Polaris to the X-Men lineup in the Dark Phoenix Saga so we could have all the old and new X-Men gathered together for Jean's "last" hurrah. That was the end of an era, and it feels a bit wrong they weren't there, though it was good Angel and Beast got to be present.

    For Jean's resurrection through Inferno:
    - X-Factor is never formed. Warren and the other surviving original X-Men cut ties with Storm's group because they can't bring themselves to trust Magneto. Warren opens his own academy where the X-Factor kids live, Bobby and Hank join him. No feeding into mutant hate propaganda BS.
    - Jean is resurrected via the Phoenix Egg. The Phoenix Force started to resurrect her after the DPS, but she rejected the painful memories and guilt which caused the process to stall. The memories go to Madeylyn, etc. The Egg is later found by the Avengers/FF and she is brought out. Jean is missing the memories of her time as Phoenix, but will get them all back after Inferno.
    - Scott rushes to meet her...but tells her he's married and has a son pretty much immediately. The two of them help out at the academy and the original five X-Men are unofficially re-formed, but Scott still attempts to stay in contact with Madelyn. By this point the Marauders struck and kidnapped the baby, he thinks she's dead, tries to find his son with Jean's help, etc. Basically there are no secrets and Scott's attempts to re-connect with Maddie and his son are not drawn out. Anything to make him (and Warren, Hank and Bobby) look considerably less terrible than they do in canon.
    - Maddie's transformation into the Goblyn Queen is more consistently portrayed how Claremont did it: demons preyed on her when she was most vulnerable and possessed her.

    Also a change in Inferno: Illyana doesn't revert to childhood, and Magik remains on the team.

  5. #35
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    Ok so here's one idea

    Dark Phoenix- After a mission to space in which Jean and Cyclops are kidnapped from a date and taken by Sentinels to Stephen Lang's facility in space orbit... The rest of the Xmen go in a rescue mission but in the middle of a solar storm. After a pitched battle the Xmen win and try to get back to earth but the radiation from the solar flares and reentry into earths atmosphere endangers the whole team. Jean uses her TK powers to pilot the space shuttle safely back to earth while the rest if the team is housed in life support pods. Jeans TK powers were pushed to the limit enhanced and somewhat mutated when she re-entered earths atmosphere. (maybe that she absorbed the power of the astral plane and causes a psychic emp absorbing all tk and tp on earth in her desperation to pilot the spacecraft and save her friends or upon entry into earths atmosphere she absorbs the power and essence of disembodied celestial) The shuttle lands in Jamaica Bay and Jean emerges after the team thought her dead. She slowly becomes more powerful and more reckless with her power eventually becoming corrupted and seeing herself as a God. She's also being manipulated by the Hellfire club and Mastermind with the help of Emma Frost in an attempt for him to gain a leadership spot within the Inner Circle. In a showdown between the Xmen trying to save her and the Hellfire club Jean has a fit of anger and she manifest or unleashes a surge of power that causes an explosion and incinerates 600,000 in upstate NY. ( like in age of x)(she doesnt fly off and eat a star). After a showdown between Jean, The Hellfire club and Xmen, Xavier places psychic blocks in Jeans mind to prevent her going dark again and in an effort to restore peace and come up with a resolution for Jeans crime Xavier does a psychic lobotomy stripping her of her powers. She agrees to this and at first Jean is sort of suicidal over her situation because she has no powers and all she can do is live with the lives shes ended. Unfortunately she is one day murdered by a vengeful Mastermind, while the Xmen are on a mission. Once the mortal body is killed she reawakens as a being of pure psionic energy driven by nothing but emotion and rage and guilt. Not to mention having to hide what she truly is to her loved ones. She's basically now an enigma among mutants , the weirdest of the weird and has to deal with repercussions and mistrust. Very similar to AVX, Phoenix goes mad with power trying to force her version of right on the world. She brooks no question of her actions. Any who oppose are tortured and it doesn't help that she even tries to mindwipe the President into being pro-mutant, which makes things much worse. In a final showdown " the Jean Grey" asserts some control for a second and allows herself to be killed she's disintegrated via special weapon developed by Forge. In the aftermath Cyclops leaves the Xmen.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    Go ON. I'm with you.



    ...And I'm out.



    These are incredibly interesting thoughts to me... because I totally agree with you that the "New Mutants" echelon of characters has historically been given short shrift and presented as an insular community within the X-Men, rather than fully integrated members of the X-Men family. Some are whole-heartedly embraced like Magik and Rictor(maybe?) while classic cast members like Dani and Shan seemingly have no essential place in the mythology.

    However, I think the pacification of Magneto into a mentor to the New Mutants might've been good stories, but I feel it did a disservice to the brand and ideology of the character. Magneto should be an antithesis to Xavier's dream, whose leadership embraces power and might over right. Allying with Magneto should be a constant tease for weaker characters, and an outright arc for others. So while I'm with you that the NM are beat down, I think Magneto should never have been among them. THEY should choose to be among Him, and HIS.

    As for the degradation into X-Force, I always saw that as a natural course for young mutants who grew up too fast in an increasingly complicated world. I would've tempered it by making 90s X-Factor kinda their opposite, their gold to X-Force blue, their Gallant to X-Force Goofus. Which is why it was important to merge Talisman with Moonstar. Danielle was always a critical outsider while Sam was an optimistic boy scout. When Sam goes militant and joins X-Force, Dani mirrors that by working alongside government and superheroic networks to establish a more public and heroic X-Factor. They exchange places, and tell a greater mutant story between their continued rivalry.

    You're absolutely right about the Hellions, who clearly could've joined their contemporaries in the MLF rather than die at the hands of a once-every-ten-years villain in Fitzroy. And it's why I like the idea of Catseye replacing Feral in x-force... it brings that team lineage closer to Xavier's.

    I'm a bit ambivalent about the loss of that weird 80s magic... it's clearly an element of Claremont's writing and cosmology, but I can also rationalize its loss in the narrative as part of growing up. Things become more grounded when you choose to be more militant or political. Things lose mystery and wonder when you learn more and stretch your own ability.
    Ive always thought that Xforce shoukd have been Magneto's thing. Him leading the New Mutants should have been turning the team into Xforce. Though having someone like Mystique or even Forge do it would have been great too. As would having Emma Frost do it especially if this was after the murder of her Hellions. Even on another note having Warpath step up and form his own team after the death of his teammates and all would bring more light to that character. Domino also would have been a great choice to form and lead a team on her own as well. Even a disgruntled Cyclops after the death of Jean would have been a great choice. The time traveling Cable though was never my thing. In fact I'd be fine getting rid of all time travel but if there just had to be a story then let it be Bishop's and that's it.

  7. #37
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodfatherIV View Post
    The time traveling Cable though was never my thing.
    I've sat and squeezed the idea long enough to realize there's nothing really of worth in the character of Cable.

    His initial design was un-ironic badassery from an artist who is now an industry joke. His personality was styled as opposed to developed, meant to evoke Wolverine but juiced with the militarist paradigm of the 80s. His reveal as Stryfe was a joke that the writers ran with before Apocalypse sent baby Nathan to the future, making his origin story a messy crossover. Hell, sending baby Nathan to the future was just a ploy to get rid of a superkid and return Cyclops to factory settings in time for the Blue/Gold era. The later attempts to make him spiritual and a psychic Jedi never set in and ended up having no impact on the character's evolution. The Askani future is so ill-defined and SO far in the future that the actions of the X-Men have no perceivable effect on that world, and it may as well be an alien planet or a parallel earth. Thirty years later, the character is a plot device for the main books with forgettable, tangential relationships to the traditional central cast... or as a straight man to a cash-cow clown who successfully transitioned into a parody of the same ideals that created Cable.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    I've sat and squeezed the idea long enough to realize there's nothing really of worth in the character of Cable.

    His initial design was un-ironic badassery from an artist who is now an industry joke. His personality was styled as opposed to developed, meant to evoke Wolverine but juiced with the militarist paradigm of the 80s. His reveal as Stryfe was a joke that the writers ran with before Apocalypse sent baby Nathan to the future, making his origin story a messy crossover. Hell, sending baby Nathan to the future was just a ploy to get rid of a superkid and return Cyclops to factory settings in time for the Blue/Gold era. The later attempts to make him spiritual and a psychic Jedi never set in and ended up having no impact on the character's evolution. The Askani future is so ill-defined and SO far in the future that the actions of the X-Men have no perceivable effect on that world, and it may as well be an alien planet or a parallel earth. Thirty years later, the character is a plot device for the main books with forgettable, tangential relationships to the traditional central cast... or as a straight man to a cash-cow clown who successfully transitioned into a parody of the same ideals that created Cable.
    Agree. Cable was and is a useless wasted character. Very much unnecessary qnd representative of whats been wrong with the Xmen

  9. #39
    Rumbles Moderator Guy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamishere1 View Post
    Hey all, I asked this question in the general Marvel Forum, but I figured I would ask here for specific X-Events. How would you rewrite the events that the X-Men have had over the years. For example would you rewrite The Dark Phoenix Saga, would you change Fatal Attractions, what would you do, or would you do nothing?
    My version of A VS X would be hilariously short: Both sides would sit down and talk things out like adults and come up with a compromise to both save the world and mutantkind.

    Crazy I know but I was feeling like a bit of a rebel today.
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  10. #40

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    IvX wiped from memory.
    AvX had Rachel re-assume phoenix force
    Madeline did not die with inferno, power leveled down and remained with the austrailian x-men, for x-factor and x-men roe reconcile another day

  11. #41
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    For me Madelyne would have been Mastermind's daughter and an agent of Sinister not a clone of Jean. The whole thing would have been an elaborate illusion.

    Rachel would exist but not as the time displaced child of Jean, Scott, Wolverine, Phoenix. I would have made her the child of Sara Grey. She would have been kidnapped when her mother went missing and woyld have been tunred into a hound on Genosha where Ahab would have been

  12. #42
    Incredible Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    I v X needs to be rewritten from top to bottom. Someone else suggested having Maximus be the bad guy and manipulating everyone, and that's the best way to go about it. You can even include a mutant on the other side egging things along, like Emma, or better yet, Cassandra Nova. Maybe lean in more on the 'minority vs. minority' conflict, and in the end have them realize they can accomplish much more for both races by working together.

    You're right, coming in to an X-men board you really should expect people to be on their side of any Avengers/X-men conflict. That's on me.

    Its hard to make a full analysis on the mutants with the 'blame the species, not the person' thing because of the limits of it being a superhero comic. There literally are good mutants and bad mutants, and the 'bad' ones regularly attacked the public and declared mutants superior. for the longest time it was the self-declared mission of the X-men to stop the 'bad' mutants to demonstrate that not all mutants were like that.

  13. #43
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    IVX is best forgotten and not revisited.

  14. #44
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    I really like the Necrosha storyline,and I'd end it differently.See Eli gave the souls of Genosha to Selene ,but as an insurance policy his resurrection of depowered mutants of M-day meant all those powers went into him.He did not reveal this to Selene as he also wanted to become powerful enough to survive as a godhood entity on his own.He always knew he was drawn to Selene and it was unrequited. He also knew the dagger he was 'killed' with was to sever his connection to Selene before she attained godhood otherwise he would be beholden to her for eternity! Yeah so when Selene is destroyed, he is shown like some black void where light essence (mutant powers) coalesce and reconstitute him as the new death god. Having innumerable powers.He is hell-bent on killing all mutants to get revenge on Selene's betrayal. I would end Necrosha with a page of him having the last laugh at how well he played Selene

  15. #45
    Amazing Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    Also, there needs to be a functional and appropriate non-combat limbo for characters that graduate from lower class men but decline X-Men agent status. Mutant advocacy programs, Mutant neighborhood with civilian jobs, research foundation.
    ^This. I think that having an official (and well-advertised) graduation for all the Morrison/ New X-Men era mutants and having them go off into the world would have done a lot to appease fans. Sure, a lot of them would still end up in limbo but at least fans would know that they were off doing more than repeating the same grade six times.

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