Shared universe for titles - the downsides

[superduperman]

For me, Batman started well, but went downhill in the DCAU. Got too Batjerk and too....not quite Batgod, at least not when I was watching (quit before it was over), but too damn "alpha" compared to all the other JL guys. They often weren't written as his equals, his peers. Superman especially bore the brunt of that (though I seem to recall Nightwing getting trashed over on Bats' show, but it's been a while). Worst of all, he had to the "right" on fundamental points of disagreement and so forth.

Didn't care for Superman's show, and so didn't watch much of it.

They had Batman dodge Darkseid's eye beams. That was the point where I said "I'm out." Meanwhile Luthor manages to trick Superman into a public fight with Captain Marvel. And pretty much manipulates him into acting like he wants him to most of the series. The entire DCAU was basically "Batman's a badass and everyone else are his sidekicks". This is why I prefer just BTAS as a stand alone.

[Tzigone]

Meanwhile Luthor manages to trick Superman into a public fight with Captain Marvel.

I do remember that (it's an episode that didn't air until after I'd quit watching and I watched it many years later just trying to catch some of CM's animated appearances). Both Captain Marvel and Superman come off as morons. And I hate LexGod as much as I hate BatGod.

The entire DCAU was basically "Batman's a badass and everyone else are his sidekicks".

Certainly did seem to go that way to me. I might have phrased it "Batman's the guy your girlfriend wants to be screwing" towards a couple other heroes. Did not like at all.

This is why I prefer just BTAS as a stand alone.

Honestly, don't even care to check it out again. Watched and enjoyed on original airing (except not liking Barbara crushing, but can't recall when that came in), but didn't like the shift on network/name/animation change. Watched pilot for Superman but not much more. Justice League, I stayed with for a little while. Until after it became JLU, but don't recall when. Batman Beyond, I like the future characters, but disliked pretty much everything to do with what happened with present characters. I at least watched until nearly the end. But I had such a bad taste for it all that I never went back to those B:TAS again (especially since I've never been as interested in Bruce alone as with others).

[Frontier]

I do remember that (it's an episode that didn't air until after I'd quit watching and I watched it many years later just trying to catch some of CM's animated appearances). Both Captain Marvel and Superman come off as morons. And I hate LexGod as much as I hate BatGod.

I think Cap was more naive while Supes was more biased then both of them being morons. I think there's a fine-line between a character being capable and competent then just to wholesale give them the god moniker. And Luthor lost in the end, like Batman takes his lumps, so I think it balances out.

Honestly, don't even care to check it out again. Watched and enjoyed on original airing (except not liking Barbara crushing, but can't recall when that came in), but didn't like the shift on network/name/animation change.

It was a crush moment in a dream sequence in "Batgirl Returns" but it never went beyond that (alluding in Batman Beyond aside).

[Tzigone]

I think Cap was more naive while Supes was more biased then both of them being morons.

Cap shouldn't be naive - not that naive, anyway. He's supposed to have the wisdom of Solomon. I don't think the problem was that Superman was biased - it was that he was dumb about the actions he took while rightly not believing Lex redeemed. He was - to me - written as someone who acted without thinking or any cleverness or planning.

I really do disliked Cap as the gosh-gee-whiz-innocent. I know it wasn't original, but I do like the consciousness of Billy remaining. But I don't like how Billy has been recreated as a angelic-innocent-apple-pie sort (way more naive than Superman ever was). He was a canny, intelligent kid to start. Worse still in versions where Billy is more clever than Cap (first season Young Justice did not do a good Cap to me and I also notice how several animated ones make him much younger than he originally was to further that aspect). Billy wasn't that naive (or naive at all) in any of the comics I read with him - some of the old ones and then a few JSA.

No matter what, we end up with them too dim to realize they are being played, and Batman to come in and impart the lesson.

[Frontier]

Cap shouldn't be naive - not that naive, anyway. He's supposed to have the wisdom of Solomon. I don't think the problem was that Superman was biased - it was that he was dumb about the actions he took while rightly not believing Lex redeemed. He was - to me - written as someone who acted without thinking or any cleverness or planning.

I forget if they brought up the Wisdom of Solomon in that episode, but I think sometimes Billy's wisdom can be impacted by his own personality and beliefs to where he doesn't always have to abide by it or at least it's applied in a way that doesn't run counter to Billy's own inherent idealism.

Superman was not in a good state of mind when that episode happened. The whole thing was a wakeup call for him by the end of it.

I really do disliked Cap as the gosh-gee-whiz-innocent. I know it wasn't original, but I do like the consciousness of Billy remaining. But I don't like how Billy has been recreated as a angelic-innocent-apple-pie sort (way more naive than Superman ever was). He was a canny, intelligent kid to start. Worse still in versions where Billy is more clever than Cap (first season Young Justice did not do a good Cap to me and I also notice how several animated ones make him much younger than he originally was to further that aspect). Billy wasn't that naive (or naive at all) in any of the comics I read with him - some of the old ones and then a few JSA.

I like a Billy who's clever and smart, for a kid, but is also idealistic and optimistic. I don't think Billy was dumb for believing in Luthor in that episode, he was just willing to give him the benefit of the doubt (which in the context of the Superhero genre might seem dumb, but in context I think it was just supposed to be a different perspective). He at least had a more balanced take on things then Superman did.

He didn't come off as stupid to me when he called out the League for justifiable reasons.

No matter what, we end up with them too dim to realize they are being played, and Batman to come in and impart the lesson.

I think it was less that and having an unbiased third party (who is the world's greatest detective) come in with his perspective. He wasn't even imparting a lesson, he was trying to make Clark feel less bad about the situation.

[Adekis]

One reason I miss Captain Marvel, who's been pretty much entirely replaced by 'Shazam', is that Captain Marvel, it's a toss-up whether he's going to be written with the wisdom and maturity he's supposed to have - whereas with Shazam it's a sure thing that he won't be. In Young Justice, Captain Marvel's kind of a dumb goofus who misses obvious things, like kids not wanting to "hang out" with an apparent adult, but in Brave and the Bold, he's a mature and wise hero with a childlike sense of innocence and wonder at the world. I don't think there's any stories where he's called "Shazam" that give him that Golden Age sensibility of being legitimately more mature as an adult hero than as a kid.

I guess I'm ultimately kind of a Golden Age purist about Captain Marvel. Mary Marvel should always be a sweetheart, Captain Marvel should always be mature and wise to the extent that sometimes Billy becomes him just to indirectly "ask his advice", and Captain Marvel Jr? That kid hates Nazis so much you guys.

But I digress. In JLU, Superman and Batman are both written as jerks a lot of the time. Forced competency isn't even really part of it for the most part (in fact in Superman's case there's more likely to be forced incompetency), they're just mean and self-righteous. I don't really have complaints about Cap's behavior in that episode.

A better Shazam based example of a story with shared universe events is the time that Constantine stole Shazam's powers for a while. Sure, it makes sense that Constantine would know Swamp Thing, it makes sense that Swamp Thing would know Superman, and it makes sense that Superman would know Shazam - but that doesn't mean it makes sense that Shazam could meet Constantine, at least not a version of him who's about to do something grimdark. I'll make an exception for Justice League Action, but that show's Constantine is barely a Constantine at all, in terms of terrifying ruthlessness.

[superduperman]

I kind of wonder if they shouldn't just go back to them being two people. The best version I've ever seen was the Superman/Batman Public Enemies movie where they were either two people or Billy really did have the Wisdom of Solomon because he didn't act like a kid with superpowers there. Of course my favorite version of Superman is the Ruby Spears cartoon so maybe I'm not the best person to comment on kids with super powers!

[LifeIsILL]

The only downside I can think of is having a character make some unnecessary appearance in another title just to get more readers. Shared universe is the one unique thing about DC or Marvel.

Trust me, I've read a bunch of indie titles and came away disappointed.

[Frontier]

I kind of wonder if they shouldn't just go back to them being two people. The best version I've ever seen was the Superman/Batman Public Enemies movie where they were either two people or Billy really did have the Wisdom of Solomon because he didn't act like a kid with superpowers there. Of course my favorite version of Superman is the Ruby Spears cartoon so maybe I'm not the best person to comment on kids with super powers!

He even made a "it doesn't take the Wisdom of Solomon" joke .

Although maybe his peppiness in that movie was because of his age.

[phantom1592]

One of the key things for me when it comes to Captain Marvel... Maybe he is a child in the body of a Superhero... but it isn't painfully OBVIOUS to EVERYONE that he's a kid in the body of a god. If and when he does change back to a kid... it should amaze and astound everyone around him, because Captain Marvel is a legitimate competent superhero.

Two personalities... Wisdom of Solomon... whatever you want to do it, Batman and Superman shouldn't automatically realize that he's just a kid and treat him like one.

[Tzigone]

One of the key things for me when it comes to Captain Marvel... Maybe he is a child in the body of a Superhero... but it isn't painfully OBVIOUS to EVERYONE that he's a kid in the body of a god. If and when he does change back to a kid... it should amaze and astound everyone around him, because Captain Marvel is a legitimate competent superhero.

Two personalities... Wisdom of Solomon... whatever you want to do it, Batman and Superman shouldn't automatically realize that he's just a kid and treat him like one.

It's worse than that to me - Billy isn't naive or particularly childish in the original, nor should he be, IMO. I feel like in so many of these versions, 10 minutes talking to the guy and everyone's going to wonder if he's mentally disabled.

[Agent Z]

I kind of wonder if they shouldn't just go back to them being two people. The best version I've ever seen was the Superman/Batman Public Enemies movie where they were either two people or Billy really did have the Wisdom of Solomon because he didn't act like a kid with superpowers there. Of course my favorite version of Superman is the Ruby Spears cartoon so maybe I'm not the best person to comment on kids with super powers!

He didn't act like a wise person there either.

[caj]

I was thinking about this - a lot of major Batman stories involve something huge happening to Gotham, and for some reason, it's just Batman and the Bat-Family with their backs to the wall taking on half a dozen of the most dangerous criminals in the world - and I just imagine like Wonder Woman, or Green Lantern, or someone like that, showing up and just one-shotting Batman's entire opposition with the power of having powers.

No Man's Land, nobody helps Bruce clean up, and it's totally forced. The Justice League could reduce clean-up by months. But the books come up basically with some contrived-ass reason for things to continue as if there is no Justice League, or even any larger superhero community who could help, beyond Gotham characters.

Because honestly, there's pretty much not a Justice League, not the way most Batman stories are written.

That is an excellent point.