View Poll Results: Who would be Wonder Woman's version of Catwoman?

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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    There's no one to seduce Diana, in the comic. She's surrounded by neutered males (Steve), monsters (Ferdinand, Hercules, Ares) and untouchable gods (Hermes, etc). She has no Catwoman to lure her out into wilderness.

    I think Conan was the closest she's had to a homme fatale. Her Cat must be more than a bad boy; I think he's got to be a wild boy, like Orion...a little gruff and unruly. He's the guy, with whom Diana can...

    He's Batman. Batman is her Catwoman.
    God NO!! Not Batman!! I thought Orion being in WW comic was a real low point for WW!! It was demeaning and degrading!!! I real don't get the appeal of wanting to have good girl fall for some AHOLE!! Batman and Orion are two of the biggest AHOLES in comics!!
    Last edited by lotchj; 05-16-2020 at 07:19 PM.

  2. #47
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    Thatís precisely why a love triangle or quadrangle could be interesting for her... Amazonian and Patriarch-ian cultures clashing.

    Donít get me wrong, I like my Diana forthright and direct, but Iím trepidatious about not allowing her to have different feelings for different people and not possibly experiencing the sometimes messy emotions of desire, romance, love, jealousy, etc. Itís ground thatís seldom covered by her and traps her into being a paragon of virtue versus human. I like to see Diana more nuanced.
    Oh, I agree that there Diana as a person, and especially Diana of Themyscira, needs to be explored more and deeper and better.

    But I think the love triangle trope is so deeply set and stereotypical in popular fiction, and modern superhero comics is deeply resistant to creative experimentation, so I'm afraid that what we'd get is some wishy-washy regurgitation of a it played for cheap drama.

    Now, if we got a writer like NK Jemisin, or Seanan McGuire, or Stjepan Sejic, writers who know how to write real interpersonal dynamics and write drama for real, then I can see them use one, and use one well. But then they would do so because they wanted to, and had a story to tell based on it. Not simply going through the motions.
    ęSpeaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given outĽ (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  3. #48
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    I think Red Beard was Diana's homme fatale, once. He was a fat, hairy pirate, with a flying boat. "Oh, the stench of him..."

    See, ..Diana just tolerates Stevie Gym-buns, because it's socially acceptable. I think she she really dreams of being handled by a slightly sinister, slightly rummy, fat man, she can run off to Bermuda with! Diana likes to get in trouble, sometimes. We need to see this side, more, ..just 'cuz it's fun.

    More Conan the Barbarian play-dates, please.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 05-17-2020 at 05:25 AM.
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  4. #49
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Oh, I agree that there Diana as a person, and especially Diana of Themyscira, needs to be explored more and deeper and better.

    But I think the love triangle trope is so deeply set and stereotypical in popular fiction, and modern superhero comics is deeply resistant to creative experimentation, so I'm afraid that what we'd get is some wishy-washy regurgitation of a it played for cheap drama.

    Now, if we got a writer like NK Jemisin, or Seanan McGuire, or Stjepan Sejic, writers who know how to write real interpersonal dynamics and write drama for real, then I can see them use one, and use one well. But then they would do so because they wanted to, and had a story to tell based on it. Not simply going through the motions.
    Ah, now I get what you mean and completely agree. A going through the motions story is the epitome of boring.

  5. #50
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    I think Red Beard was Diana's homme fatale, once. He was a fat, hairy pirate, with a flying boat. "Oh, the stench of him..."

    See, ..Diana just tolerates Stevie Gym-buns, because it's socially acceptable. I think she she really dreams of being handled by a slightly sinister, slightly rummy, fat man, she can run off to Bermuda with! Diana likes to get in trouble, sometimes. We need to see this side, more, ..just 'cuz it's fun.

    More Conan the Barbarian play-dates, please.
    OMG, Red Beard needs to return, but She-Ra kinda went there with Sea Hawk in the 80s.

    I’d have to creatively think about that type some more, but I’m not sure Diana would be attracted to a “lovable scoundrel.” But, maybe I’m wrong. I’ve got a couple of characters brewing that can explore attraction, love, and romance with Diana in addition to Steve, that play off and up to different aspects of Diana’s character.

    The way I think Diana enjoys getting into trouble is living her truth authentically and boldly in the face of oppression, bigotry, fear, and hate. She educates and empowers everyone to do the same via her entire being interacting with the world.

  6. #51
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    No one. Fix Steve first.

  7. #52
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Let’s look at this another way. I’ve heard that “catwoman” is the true nemesis of batman because she challenges his black and white worldview of crime and punishment with a nuanced, complicated adult world of grays.

    Who is a villain that challenges Diana’s methods and simplifications by contrasting it with a more nuanced perspective that changes who Diana “could be”?

  8. #53
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    Let’s look at this another way. I’ve heard that “catwoman” is the true nemesis of batman because she challenges his black and white worldview of crime and punishment with a nuanced, complicated adult world of grays.

    Who is a villain that challenges Diana’s methods and simplifications by contrasting it with a more nuanced perspective that changes who Diana “could be”?
    I touched upon that in an earlier post of this thread, and I believe such an attempt will flounder on that Batman and Wonder Woman are, at core, very different heroes. Batman is here to defend society against its ills, and he is born out of a rather puritanical and patriarchal worldview.

    Wonder Woman is very different here. She was literally constructed to change the world, and provide a critique of patriarchy based on feminism. The way that the LGBT community has latched onto her shows that at least they understand that, even if DC as an institution doesn't (or they do understand it, and recoil away from it in horror).
    ęSpeaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given outĽ (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  9. #54
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    So, Wonder Woman's Cat-guy has to tempt her to abandon her ideals about the preservation of peace and freedom. That means he's likely going to be a king or a very powerful man, whose concerns might include contemplation of what role peace or freedom should play in the world.

    I'm envisioning someone, like Red Lion or an sinister Black Panther.
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  10. #55
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    To be honest WW being with some criminal would be degrading!!! She deserves better!!
    Last edited by lotchj; 05-19-2020 at 06:00 AM.

  11. #56
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lotchj View Post
    To be honest WW being with some criminal would be degrading!!! She deserves better!!
    Perhaps, he isn't a criminal. Perhaps, he is a tormented king, cursed to rule over a horrid place, over which he must be a seemingly merciless tyrant. That would be interesting challenge for little Di-Di. Ha'ha-aaa!

    Maybe, he is like an evil King Conan.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 05-19-2020 at 07:44 AM.
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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Perhaps, he isn't a criminal. Perhaps, he is a tormented king, cursed to rule over a horrid place, over which he must be a seemingly merciless tyrant. That would be interesting challenge for little Di-Di. Ha'ha-aaa!

    Maybe, he is like an evil King Conan.
    Being evil and being a criminal is the same thing in my book!! WW is a good woman With a code and good values! Don't know why you want her to be with a low life that would only drag her down into the gutter!! Setting good girls up with bad boys has always been BS!!
    Last edited by lotchj; 05-19-2020 at 08:34 PM.

  13. #58
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lotchj View Post
    Being evil and being a criminal is the same thing in my book!! WW is a good woman With a code and good values! Don't know why you want her to be with a low life that would only drag her down into the gutter!! Setting good girls up with bad boys has always been BS!!
    Maxima seduces Superman with what he could have, with her, ..if only he gave up restraint of the awesome power that might make him a god, among men. Catwoman tempts Batman with what he might enjoy with her, if only he became a predator and thief among men, instead of our protector. These are classic femme fatales.

    Is he a noble barbarian, like Conan? Is he a brutal enforcer, like Orion? A sinister industrialist [Too many of those, I think.], like Maxwell Lord?

    Aside from the fact that the Byronic hero or homme fatale isn't as common in popular literature, outside of romance novels, ..I just don't see that Wonder Woman has such a character in her on-going narrative. As a freedom-loving Amazon, she is more a crusader and revolutionary, than a warmonger. I don't see anyone, among her rogues, who might seduce her into thinking, otherwise about war-making or the preservation of freedom.

    I think the homme fatale for Diana will pervert her ideas about violence and conquest, through her potential for compassion. If Diana encountered a man, who was a reluctant dictator or soldier, tormented by what he perceived to be an obligation or mission, he could not refuse, ....I think we might have our homme fatale. Perhaps, he is essentially a male mirror of Wonder Wonder, nearly as powerful and as much crusader as she - a revolutionary in a faraway land - but using tactics, repugnant to Diana's ethical code. There would ensue a chase! Then, she'd have a seductive opponent, with whom enmity very much resembled what Batman has with Catwoman.

    Let me suggest something controversial. Perhaps, Diana cannot have a homme fatale, because we will not let her. Having a Byronic lover in the Wonder-mythos requires Diana to be vulnerable in a way that we haven't welcomed, as fans. We want a perfect, invincible Wonder Woman, who doesn't need a challenging man in her life. There's no room in her on-going narrative for such a rogue...none!

    Anyone here ever read Wuthering Heights or seen the movie? Sorry...Shades Of Grey doesn't cut it.

    We're looking for a Byronic hero, in the classic tradition. That is Diana's homme fatale, her Heathcliff, ..and he doesn't presently exist.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 05-20-2020 at 06:51 PM.
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  14. #59
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    We're looking for a Byronic hero, in the classic tradition. That is Diana's homme fatale, her Heathcliff, ..and he doesn't presently exist.
    I’ve shied away from the romantic hero archetype so far, but I need to reconsider if Diana would be romantically interested in a Mister Darcy... they kind of played around with that idea between Diana and Bruce in the Justice League animated series. I bought into it because Diana essentially approached him as “I know you and your feelings for me better than you do yourself - so I’ll just hang out and be patient until you catch up.” And it worked for that version of Diana, but I’m unsure if it’d work for the version of Diana I’m going for... or maybe the better thought under what circumstances would it work for the version of Diana that I’m going for. Hmmm...

    So far, my Wonder romances to explore/re-explore include:
    - Kasia
    - Steve Trevor
    - Trevor Barnes
    - Rama
    - Andros, returning from the 70s tv series
    - a new character I’ve created
    - another new character I’ve created
    - a new Byronic herx character I’m going to work on, thanks to Mel

  15. #60
    Dark Angel of Feminism Shadowcat's Avatar
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    Captain Wonder—instead of this cheesy Bronze Age name he could go by Achilles, or some other mythical hero/anti-hero, who started out as a construct from Dr. Psycho and Circe or Hekate.
    DE55E25B-3DA6-4439-8123-5920599924D2.jpg
    Last edited by Shadowcat; 05-25-2020 at 08:44 AM.
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