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  1. #1
    Spectacular Member Valentis's Avatar
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    Default If The Force Awakens was a cheap remake of A New Hope

    Whose idea was it for such lack of originality.

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  2. #2
    Astonishing Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    I like to think it was a collective effort.

    But as a rule i enjoy blaming Abrams so...

  3. #3
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    TPM went through some of the motions of ANH as well, with a bit of ROTJ (Although the Gungans were more advanced than the Ewoks).
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    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Tell em who to blame, Gary.

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  5. #5
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    "If The Force Awakens was a cheap remake of A New Hope"

    It wasn't. Next question, please?
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  6. #6
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    What lack of originality the Sequel Trilogy had was likely more of a quiet but consistent belief on the part of multiple people involved that either a) they needed to be as far away from the OT as possible and therefore more OT than before, or b) that the best way to guarantee success would be to use the most familiar Star Wars set-up, the OT, but play around with it.

    Now, there *was* a lack of originality across all three films, and I’d argue that the sum total of them compiled upon each other by the end of TROS to make the overall ST kind of a depressing replay of the OT that doesn’t really give the Saga much at all and doesn’t really justify itself...

    ...But all three films had some clearly original and inspired elements.

    TFA had Finn’s story, which is by far the most original an fleshed out idea in the ST (and the reason I’d say he’s the best character of the new cast) and has an often overlooked love of inversion for the characters and ideas, though some are less stringent than others - Rey beats down her Luke-like wanderlust because of her denial about being abandoned and stumbles onto a found family with Finn and Han instead of losing her guardians on screen like Luke did, Kylo is an inverse fo Vader as a handsome but totally loathsome young man instead do a monster concealing the remains of a once great hero turned villain, and the FO is a lean and efficient machine in this film.

    It’s just the film also has a planet killer, a trench run, a search for a droid, and a dessert hero for the young heroine much like TFA did.

    TLJ often gets plaudits for being daring and subversive, and it is.

    But TLJ is also a film that embraces the most cliched and archetypal portrayal of the First Order it could, making them a fat and bloated parody of the Empire, while also mimicking ESB and ROTJ in scenes that are clearly the work of someone who loves film history but doesn’t neccessarily have anything new to contribute besides “what if it didn’t make as much sense as last time?” And this is the film that, while trying to o argue the audience should move past the Skywalker’s has tunnel vision for the Skywalkers to the exclusion of everything else, and ends up trying to make points that are in fact redundant to experience Star Wars fans (What? Corporation can be evil profiteers? I didn’t get that from the Separatists in the PT, did I? Anyone, including a desert orphan, can become a hero? I couldn’t have guessed that from Luke and Anakin.)

    And TROS is trying to get all sorcerery and dark fantasy with the Phantom Emperor and more crazy space magic like the Dyad... but ends up fulfilling Kylo Ren’s role as nothing more than a Vader pastiche because TLJ was so sympathetic and biased towards Kylo it accidentally killed his value as a villain while failing to make Rey resonate as the Skywalker of the story.

    The entire ST is like a music number that samples from the original, but with two different DJ’s who’s decisions hurt each other, and end up making it a cruddy cover instead of either an inspiring cover or a brand new song.
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  7. #7
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    The only thing in TFA that was too close to home for me was the super weapon aspect. I would have abandoned that for just a large surprise fleet that attacks the capital system and destroys it for all intents and purposes that way. Starkiller Base would have just been the secret base of that surprise fleet, which Han, Rey, Finn and a strike team go on a mission to destroy the shipyard there. Still involves the espionage aspect of trying to find a hidden base, but that's prevalent in almost all the films, not just ANH.

    Beyond that though I don't consider it a cheap copy. It had some genuinely good beats, and by far is the best film of the ST.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 03-31-2020 at 11:07 AM.
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  8. #8
    Astonishing Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    by far is the best film of the ST.
    Such a small accomplishment though. But while we are on the subject, what for me makes a new hope 2.0 the better film of this farce of a trilogy is clearly Finn.

    He's lovable, funny, has an interesting concept, makes for a great main character and is not complete dead weight. How refreshing.

    It didn't last very long though and we all can agree that it was so more important to show all the miracles Reysus Christ came in that galaxy far far away to realize and of course, of course, we needed more crying from captain Emo.

    One can't have enough of that.

  9. #9
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    My only change I would make to Starkiller would be that when they go to blow it up, they end up disabling it. It then becomes a base of operations, they piece out the weapons parts to FO walkers, the Sith SD fleet, and so on.

    Makes the FO seem smarter than the Empire and willing to learn from mistakes and the RoS and TLJ super weapons story beats stay the same but have more continuity.

    But that's just nitpicking.
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  10. #10
    Spectacular Member Valentis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    The only thing in TFA that was too close to home for me was the super weapon aspect. I would have abandoned that for just a large surprise fleet that attacks the capital system and destroys it for all intents and purposes that way. Starkiller Base would have just been the secret base of that surprise fleet, which Han, Rey, Finn and a strike team go on a mission to destroy the shipyard there. Still involves the espionage aspect of trying to find a hidden base, but that's prevalent in almost all the films, not just ANH.

    Beyond that though I don't consider it a cheap copy. It had some genuinely good beats, and by far is the best film of the ST.
    What parts did you consider good beats? The only part I loved in the film was when the snow land divides between Rey and Kylo, ending the lightsaber duel.

  11. #11
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Finn's introduction, Rey's introduction, Han and Chewie reuniting with the Falcon, Artoo being deactivated without Luke, Kylo "speaking" to Vader, Leia's introduction, the entire sequence with Maz from the setting to finding Anakin's saber, Han's death, Kylo vs. Finn then Rey, the finale with Rey finding Luke. Just to name a few. I thought the film was great with again, only the retread of the superweapon gnawing a little. I look back on it today as a really great start that nothing else lived up to. The middle part trashed to many things set up, and the last part then overcompensated in some areas and doubled down on in others (Reylo for instance).
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 03-31-2020 at 04:29 PM.
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  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    What lack of originality the Sequel Trilogy had was likely more of a quiet but consistent belief on the part of multiple people involved that either a) they needed to be as far away from the OT as possible and therefore more OT than before, or b) that the best way to guarantee success would be to use the most familiar Star Wars set-up, the OT, but play around with it.

    Now, there *was* a lack of originality across all three films, and I’d argue that the sum total of them compiled upon each other by the end of TROS to make the overall ST kind of a depressing replay of the OT that doesn’t really give the Saga much at all and doesn’t really justify itself...

    ...But all three films had some clearly original and inspired elements.

    TFA had Finn’s story, which is by far the most original an fleshed out idea in the ST (and the reason I’d say he’s the best character of the new cast) and has an often overlooked love of inversion for the characters and ideas, though some are less stringent than others - Rey beats down her Luke-like wanderlust because of her denial about being abandoned and stumbles onto a found family with Finn and Han instead of losing her guardians on screen like Luke did, Kylo is an inverse fo Vader as a handsome but totally loathsome young man instead do a monster concealing the remains of a once great hero turned villain, and the FO is a lean and efficient machine in this film.

    It’s just the film also has a planet killer, a trench run, a search for a droid, and a dessert hero for the young heroine much like TFA did.

    TLJ often gets plaudits for being daring and subversive, and it is.

    But TLJ is also a film that embraces the most cliched and archetypal portrayal of the First Order it could, making them a fat and bloated parody of the Empire, while also mimicking ESB and ROTJ in scenes that are clearly the work of someone who loves film history but doesn’t neccessarily have anything new to contribute besides “what if it didn’t make as much sense as last time?” And this is the film that, while trying to o argue the audience should move past the Skywalker’s has tunnel vision for the Skywalkers to the exclusion of everything else, and ends up trying to make points that are in fact redundant to experience Star Wars fans (What? Corporation can be evil profiteers? I didn’t get that from the Separatists in the PT, did I? Anyone, including a desert orphan, can become a hero? I couldn’t have guessed that from Luke and Anakin.)

    And TROS is trying to get all sorcerery and dark fantasy with the Phantom Emperor and more crazy space magic like the Dyad... but ends up fulfilling Kylo Ren’s role as nothing more than a Vader pastiche because TLJ was so sympathetic and biased towards Kylo it accidentally killed his value as a villain while failing to make Rey resonate as the Skywalker of the story.

    The entire ST is like a music number that samples from the original, but with two different DJ’s who’s decisions hurt each other, and end up making it a cruddy cover instead of either an inspiring cover or a brand new song.
    To be fair I don't think she would've resonated as an adopted Skywalker when Luke didn't have any bonding until he was a ghost.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valentis View Post
    What parts did you consider good beats? The only part I loved in the film was when the snow land divides between Rey and Kylo, ending the lightsaber duel.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Finn's introduction, Rey's introduction, Han and Chewie reuniting with the Falcon, Artoo being deactivated without Luke, Kylo "speaking" to Vader, Leia's introduction, the entire sequence with Maz from the setting to finding Anakin's saber, Han's death, Kylo vs. Finn then Rey, the finale with Rey finding Luke. Just to name a few. I thought the film was great with again, only the retread of the superweapon gnawing a little. I look back on it today as a really great start that nothing else lived up to. The middle part trashed to many things set up, and the last part then overcompensated in some areas and doubled down on in others (Reylo for instance).
    The way I see it, most of TFA is either original or at least a very interesting twist on familiar concepts and ideas... until you get to Starkiller Base, what time does, and how it gets finally blown up. I’d even argue that the defenses of Starkiller Base at least show an evolution from the first two Death Star defenses, and that the First Order’s reaction when things start to get explode-y is much more Death Star 2 and “Get the hell out!” than stupidly staying at their posts while everyone dies. It’s when we see it blow up a the capital system to dogmatically recreate the Empire vs Rebels dynamic, and when we leave an actually engaging duel just to do a third trench run that doesn’t really add anything knew at all, and is based on a minor character in Poe.

    For twists on familiar concepts and ideas, the biggest ones are Rey, Han, and Kylo’s portrayal. All three are quite clearly derived from earlier material... but there not simple repeats; at worst, they’re remixes instead. Rey’s got abandonment issues instead of Luke’s idolization fo his father, and suffer from severe denial that’s holding her back. Han is ironically playing the Obi-Wan role in a reversal of ANH. Kylo is an inverse of Vader - immature, unstable, physically healthy but spiritually malformed. This stuff is why seeing Han give the “believer” speech in contrast to his skepticism lines from ANH, Rey RJ away from and reject the call of the Force even harder than Luke did and pay a horrible price for it, and seeing Kylo invert Vader!s saving grace (his love of family) into cold-blooded patricide, all works as a change-up from a straight up remake or retread.

    But Finn, it has to be noted, is a 100% fresh new concept for a lead. And his personal character arc really is a completely new thing; it’s paced more leisurely while still covering a lot of ground, it’s literally the formation of an entire identity, and it’s the ultimate underdog story for the Saga.

    There’s a real power in seeing a nameless and faceless Stormtrooper (the most prop-like Star Wars characters in existence) have the moral strength to reject an order to commit mass murder while being justifiably terrified into a near catatonia of the giant evil space wizard when that monster notices him... only for that stormtrooper to go on a journey that ends with him gaining a name, an identity, a family of sorts, become a Big Deal for the Resistance when he was at first just lying about that, and charge that same evil space wizard screaming bloody defiance in defense of his unconscious friend, knowing it’s a hopeless battle - and still managing to keep the monster occupied long enough for his friend to rise and defeat him.

    That’s why I’d say there’s a very strong correlation between Finn fans and those who hold TFA as being the strongest of the Sequel Trilogy, while there’s another very storing correlation between those who prefer TLJ or TROS and being more cool on Finn compared to other characters, even to the extent of sometimes thinking those films “put him in his proper place.”

    It’s also why I’d argue that TFA has to be seen as having one major and radically different element from the other two films That is still very much original: Finn as an original, well-written male lead who’s Rey’s most important companion and co-lead, while TLJ has Luke in that place, and TROS has Kylo/Ben there (yes, he has less screen-time than Poe and Finn, but he’s clearly more significant to the story, and Disney and LFL themselves submitted Driver as Best Actor above Boyega and Issac).

    And frankly, I tend to find that part of the story a major “breakpoint” in the fanbase and the critics, probably the biggest even above the fight over Rey’s portrayal (in part because it has a major impact on how Rey’s story is presented). What type of male lead do you want? Sad Old Man Luke, with a storyline that’s focused on him without really having much impact or contribution to Rey, which is either highly artistic or highly pretentious? Kylo Ren/Ben Solo, who requires a magic trick and sacrifice by his mother to pull off a redemption where he’s monosyllabic for much of his screentime as a hero, and where the story goes through some convolutions that either screw up Rey and his stories to try and give him a heroic moment without overshadowing her or try to give the audience the payoff they need? Or Finn, the only option who’s not a Skywalker which might overpower Rey’s story, still has more screentime in his main film than his counterparts, has a healthy and reciprocal relationship with Rey, and doesn’t suffer some kind of “protagonist centered morality”?

    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    To be fair I don't think she would've resonated as an adopted Skywalker when Luke didn't have any bonding until he was a ghost.
    I feel that’s likely true as well.

    I think you could have believably had her as an adopted Organa if you finangled a way to have Leia give Rey her own adopted family name while still alive, but the Skywalkers were effectively dead as long as they weren’t going to change up TLJ’s approach to Luke and Rey’s relationship but didn’t want Kylo/Ben to overshadow her story.

    Of course, I’d say there’s plenty of people of the opinion that Ben *still* overshadowed Rey, since his story wound up being moderately more consistent than hers across three films, he’s still the only new family member of the Skywalkers and Solos, and because they twisted and crammed so much into the confrontation on Exogul to try and force Ben Solo to matter to Rey via the kiss which has no reason to occur, and
    Palpatine’s last minute change in plans to try and prevent Rey from jus winning immediately so Kylo can be fed the Knights of Ren and get the shrug scene, and where she dies for no good reason so he can play Prince Charming.

    The Worcester thing to me about TROS is that effectively it managed to double down on the aspects of Rey that some people see a smacking her a Mary Sue... and then managed to one-up that story by making Ben Solo a greater Gary Stu as well.
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  14. #14
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    It kind of seemed like the EU was kind of moving in a similar direction (OT nostalgia) if you think about it.

    The Knights of the Old Republic game, for example, despite it's twist, largely repeated a lot of the OT's story beats. Bunch of misfits on a small freighter, including a Wookie, smug pilot, and disgraced former Jedi Master, etc against a masked villain with a connection to the main character and his superweapon.

    The Legacy of the Force novels more or less kind of were a mix of the prequel and OT storylines, and even had a similar plotline to the ST by having Han's son fall to the dark side.


    The Legacy comics also were pretty heavily based on OT nostalgia with a new generation of Skywalker, another Jedi purge, new revived Empire ruled (in part) by the dark side etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    It kind of seemed like the EU was kind of moving in a similar direction (OT nostalgia) if you think about it.

    The Knights of the Old Republic game, for example, despite it's twist, largely repeated a lot of the OT's story beats. Bunch of misfits on a small freighter, including a Wookie, smug pilot, and disgraced former Jedi Master, etc against a masked villain with a connection to the main character and his superweapon.

    The Legacy of the Force novels more or less kind of were a mix of the prequel and OT storylines, and even had a similar plotline to the ST by having Han's son fall to the dark side.


    The Legacy comics also were pretty heavily based on OT nostalgia with a new generation of Skywalker, another Jedi purge, new revived Empire ruled (in part) by the dark side etc.
    True but at the same time Legacy of the Force from what I understand took place thousands of years into the future. So it's not like it completely erased the accomplishments of the OT. By comparison we're back to square 1 of the Skywalker saga. So I can see why quite a few people are unsatisfied.

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