Netflix Daredevil vs. Arrovverse

[MorphyVSFischer]

Ollie's soak is not better than Matt's. Just check the Nobu fight. That damage would have dropped Ollie like a bad habit.

Oliver literally has survived stuff like a sword through the chest and multiple arrows to the chest, on top of days of non-stop torture

[big_adventure]

Oliver literally has survived stuff like a sword through the chest and multiple arrows to the chest, on top of days of non-stop torture

Ollie literally BARELY survived that sword, and needed SIGNIFICANT help to do so. Not to mention that the skill he showed in that fight was, oh, yellow belt at a decent dojo. So you might want to avoid that example for Ollie if you are trying to upsell the guy.

[Slade1]

Ollie literally BARELY survived that sword, and needed SIGNIFICANT help to do so. Not to mention that the skill he showed in that fight was, oh, yellow belt at a decent dojo. So you might want to avoid that example for Ollie if you are trying to upsell the guy.

He wasn't talking about skill, just the durability portion of it.
Yes, he needed help to recover from it but getting run through with a sword, falling off a cliff land on the rock below, and surviving freezing cold temperatures half naked for who knows how long and still live is an exceptional feat no matter how you look at it.

[FrenchGemini]

He wasn't talking about skill, just the durability portion of it.
Yes, he needed help to recover from it but getting run through with a sword, falling off a cliff land on the rock below, and surviving freezing cold temperatures half naked for who knows how long and still live is an exceptional feat no matter how you look at it.

Small caveat: the cold was apparently credited as one of the factors in his survival, IIRC. The other two being penicilin tea and the will to live (apparently, Sara lacked even that last one earlier in that season... smh... oh well, she came back since then, so we're good). Still pretty damn impressive.

[greatmetropolitan]

Ollie literally BARELY survived that sword, and needed SIGNIFICANT help to do so. Not to mention that the skill he showed in that fight was, oh, yellow belt at a decent dojo. So you might want to avoid that example for Ollie if you are trying to upsell the guy.

We're really going to have to stop with choreography bias when trying to argue these rumbles. Everyone watching the show and everyone on the boards knows that Ollie is presented in universe is far above "a yellow belt at a decent dojo", so bringing real world choreography critique in serves no one. I may as well say Dr Doom wouldn't survive any fight when he relies on magic because we all know magic doesn't exist, and that he's actually a dummy because his super science is absolute mumbo jumbo by real world science standards.

I know there's a lot of martial arts enthusiasts on the boards, and I get how seeing something with which you're deeply familiar presented poorly can be grating, but it doesn't make for a fair argument, especially when you know the intention and context of the presentation.

Worth remembering that when Ollie was dominated in that fight with Ra's and stabbed and fell off the cliff, the fight took place literally immediately after he climbed the mountain with very little equipment. His soak and endurance are enormous.

[Anarchist]

Plus, Oliver had never fought with a sword before.

[big_adventure]

We're really going to have to stop with choreography bias when trying to argue these rumbles. Everyone watching the show and everyone on the boards knows that Ollie is presented in universe is far above "a yellow belt at a decent dojo", so bringing real world choreography critique in serves no one. I may as well say Dr Doom wouldn't survive any fight when he relies on magic because we all know magic doesn't exist, and that he's actually a dummy because his super science is absolute mumbo jumbo by real world science standards.

I know there's a lot of martial arts enthusiasts on the boards, and I get how seeing something with which you're deeply familiar presented poorly can be grating, but it doesn't make for a fair argument, especially when you know the intention and context of the presentation.

Worth remembering that when Ollie was dominated in that fight with Ra's and stabbed and fell off the cliff, the fight took place literally immediately after he climbed the mountain with very little equipment. His soak and endurance are enormous.

We really don't have to do that at all, not when Ollie has so often had poor showings against "just a guy" types.

Yes, Ollie has amazing, supernatural soak and endurance compared to real world people. But Matt's is every bit as good, and likely better, and he's also got better armor.

Ollie is obviously presented as an excellent amazing fighter. Just not any better than Matt, is what I'm saying. Matt is quicker (if only slightly) and more agile, he's visibly a superior fighter, and his back story even adds why that would be so. He does generally better against other top-tier fighters in-universe than Ollie does.

And again, in an open arena, Ollie would have the edge thanks to the better range game. But on rooftops, Matt's massive edge in senses and stealth, combined with greater agility and generally signifiacantly superior parkour, plus his superior armor, are all the advantages he'd need to take the majority.

Slade is going to have an edge on Matt, he's got the same deficits in senses, agility and speed, but has good armor, superhuman strength, better soak and carries swords and guns. That should be enough.

Sarah, as stated, is mincemeat. She has all the same deficits, plus has no range game at all.

[big_adventure]

Plus, Oliver had never fought with a sword before.

I don't think that was stated, was it?

[The Arbiter]

I don't think that was stated, was it?

It isn't stated. I think the idea is that we've just never seen him really use one prior to that fight. His training / backstory dont lend themselves well for sword experience either.

I'm not really commenting on the fight in general, just trying to clear that up.

[big_adventure]

It isn't stated. I think the idea is that we've just never seen him really use one prior to that fight. His training / backstory dont lend themselves well for sword experience either.

I'm not really commenting on the fight in general, just trying to clear that up.

Eh, ISTR him learning from Slade on Lian Liu, and Slade certainly use swords. I think that the implication is far more "pro sword" then anti sword.

[FrenchGemini]

Eh, he was trained by Slade "I like swords" Wilson, and his first lesson was "Always stay behind your sword" (okay, at that point he was considering killing Ollie if he was a liability. And Ollie violated that rule less than 5 seconds after Ra's throat punch in their first fight).

Afterwards, it wasn't shown if he was further trained with swords, or if they stuck with stick (no, not the old blind guy) training, and went with the (false) principle that stick training=sword training.

EDIT: Ninja'd by big.

[Anarchist]

I mean, what kind of normal guys did Oliver consistently struggle with?
Mooks, he usually annihaltes, and generally quicker than Matt I'd say.

Are you talking about Anarky?
Well on the same note, Matt also struggled with John Healy.

EDIT: Ok point taken about the sword thing. He still wasn't very experienced with it and prefered the bow.

[The Arbiter]

Huh. I guess I have forgotten most of that.

[big_adventure]

I mean, what kind of normal guys did Oliver consistently struggle with?
Mooks, he usually annihaltes, and generally quicker than Matt I'd say.

Are you talking about Anarky?
Well on the same note, Matt also struggled with John Healy.

EDIT: Ok point taken about the sword thing. He still wasn't very experienced with it and prefered the bow.

Not consistently, no, but it's happened a lot. He's had tons of one-shots, and tons of guys getting back up and landing punches or grappling with him or chasing him off. Some of his major baddies have been featless jokes, really, with no reason for them being good. Idiots escape him regularly. Matt's guys generally have reason for being in his ballpark, or feats that show why. Nobu, the Hand leaders, Bullseye, Kingpin are all blatently superhuman on-screen by feats, with explanation and presentation. Diaz was a chump who somehow was at Ollie's level because, I dunno, his dad was a dick a few times? He had a cool tattoo? The context of the universe matters a bit as well: Laurel somehow arrived at costumed crimefighting level after a couple of months of self defense training, meaning that anybody she's beating is automatically suspect. Thea, same: the girl went from druggie nympho page 6 party girl to dangerous to dangerous street ninja in a couple of months. So anyone who's ass she's kicking it pretty much by definition not all that tough.

[Anarchist]

I don't actually remember any explanation on how Wilson went from a chubby boy that killed his abusive dad with a hammer to somebody who can break peoples backs with his bare hands either, so there's that.

As for Laurel, her transition into a crime fighter wasn't done overnight, she basically struggled with normal streetthugs for a whole season or so until she became somewhat respectable (and then she got killed, still a huge lowpoint in the series).

I mean, it doesn't really matter on how a character became as good as he/she is according to Rumble rules, afair.