Netflix Daredevil vs. Arrovverse

[big_adventure]

I don't actually remember any explanation on how Wilson went from a chubby boy that killed his abusive dad with a hammer to somebody who can break peoples backs with his bare hands either, so there's that.

As for Laurel, her transition into a crime fighter wasn't done overnight, she basically struggled with normal streetthugs for a whole season or so until she became somewhat respectable (and then she got killed, still a huge lowpoint in the series).

I mean, it doesn't really matter on how a character became as good as he/she is according to Rumble rules, afair.

True for Fisk, but he has ONLY superhuman feats, basically, so it is what it is. We also know, at the very least, that Fisk did this on a plan over like 25 years. And he's a mountain of a human being, and size absolutely does matter.

For Laurel, a season is a few month of real time, and she didn't struggle nearly as much as a real human would against crap opponents. And what I meant is that she went from PTSD afflicted lawyer to "wearing a costume fighting street crime" in a couple of months. And her training was with just some health club dude basically - it's not like Ollie was tutoring her.

[Slade1]

So anyone who's ass she's kicking it pretty much by definition not all that tough.

Or, we can say that in this universe, it's easy to become uber competent. In a comic book show this is what you point out? Low ball it all you want but it gets tiresome when you seen to downplay everything from Arrow and prop up everything from Daredevil. I'm not even saying who wins but if I had to guess I would say it's a split between Matt and Ollie and Matt has an edge over the others. I'm not calling you out or anything, it just seems that way to me.

EDIT: Though I do agree that a month or two of training is silly.

[Guy1]

True for Fisk, but he has ONLY superhuman feats, basically, so it is what it is. We also know, at the very least, that Fisk did this on a plan over like 25 years. And he's a mountain of a human being, and size absolutely does matter.

For Laurel, a season is a few month of real time, and she didn't struggle nearly as much as a real human would against crap opponents. And what I meant is that she went from PTSD afflicted lawyer to "wearing a costume fighting street crime" in a couple of months. And her training was with just some health club dude basically - it's not like Ollie was tutoring her.

IIRC, she did get some slight training from Nyssa but considering the timeframe of Season 3, it must've been done in a Time Chamber or something for her to get enough out of it to throw hands with League Ninjas.

[FrenchGemini]

Plus the "health club dude" was actually Wildcat, who was the first Starling City vigilante, though he didn't quite get the same level of press as Ollie. Still a short time frame for Laurel though, even compared to Thea, who at least was trained almost non-stop by Malcolm Merlyn between S2 and 3 (and got further training after coming back), who himself was turned from a wimpy businessman to an Ollie-level killing machine in like one to two years by the League, so at least there is a precedent for them having efficient training methods.

[big_adventure]

Or, we can say that in this universe, it's easy to become uber competent. In a comic book show this is what you point out? Low ball it all you want but it gets tiresome when you seen to downplay everything from Arrow and prop up everything from Daredevil. I'm not even saying who wins but if I had to guess I would say it's a split between Matt and Ollie and Matt has an edge over the others. I'm not calling you out or anything, it just seems that way to me.

EDIT: Though I do agree that a month or two of training is silly.

I was replying to people saying that Arrow people would destroy Matt. Someone stated that Thea would beat Matt. And that's just Arrow fan nonsense. So I challenge it.

I say in multiple posts that Ollie is good, that I just think Matt has an edge. I don't say that Matt stomps him, just that he has the edge. And I base that on his better visible skill, his better reactions, his ability to use the terrain better, and his ability to both sneak and never get sneaked by the foes here. I even state that I'd pick Ollie for the majority in the arena, but this fight isn't there. I don't see how that's particularly downplaying the guy.

Ollie is someone who is superhuman by real world standards, regardless of the **** choreography and the horrific PIS/CIS in the writing. But so is Matt. That's it.

[big_adventure]

Plus the "health club dude" was actually Wildcat, who was the first Starling City vigilante, though he didn't quite get the same level of press as Ollie. Still a short time frame for Laurel though, even compared to Thea, who at least was trained almost non-stop by Malcolm Merlyn between S2 and 3 (and got further training after coming back), who himself was turned from a wimpy businessman to an Ollie-level killing machine in like one to two years by the League, so at least there is a precedent for them having efficient training methods.

But she wasn't doing Vigilante 307, or even Vigilante 101. She was a 110 pound woman with limited muscle tone doing basic self defense, for a couple of months. That's what I'm saying.

[big_adventure]

IIRC, she did get some slight training from Nyssa but considering the timeframe of Season 3, it must've been done in a Time Chamber or something for her to get enough out of it to throw hands with League Ninjas.

This right there. Maybe the Lazarus pit comes with a HBTC add-on?

[MorphyVSFischer]

Ollie literally BARELY survived that sword, and needed SIGNIFICANT help to do so. Not to mention that the skill he showed in that fight was, oh, yellow belt at a decent dojo. So you might want to avoid that example for Ollie if you are trying to upsell the guy.

Matt had a hard time (to the point of needing help from another dude) lifting up a manhole cover. Guess any regular dude is stronger then he is, bringing up low tier examples of Ollie losing is about as valid as me bringing up Spiderman beating firelord, as is going "muh realism" to discredit feats

[Guy1]

Arrow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lRptrsHjIg

Daredevil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axP2summdo8

Posted some fun feat videos if anybody wants to compare and contrast.

[FrenchGemini]

But she wasn't doing Vigilante 307, or even Vigilante 101. She was a 110 pound woman with limited muscle tone doing basic self defense, for a couple of months. That's what I'm saying.

Fair enough, just nitpicking on the "health club dude" part .

Also, I quickly rechecked Thea's fights for fun... Eh, I'd say it's the same as Sara, except with less experience. Her feats are not that bad, except that they come with caveats:
-Her Anarky fight is probably her best feat (plus it was under bloodlust). Anarky is actually pretty good, capable of deflecting arrows. However, when Ollie is at the top of his game, he treats him like a nuisance while having to find a bomb and fire a disarming arrow at it.
Thea vs Anarky (plus Ollie being rusty)
Non-rusty GA vs Anarky (bonus: Ollie using his... usual methods to dissuade people from embracing the vigilante lifestyle)

-A lot of defeating mooks.
-She consistently held her own against Malcolm, but each time it was either in training conditions, or Malcolm was getting used to his cybernetic hand, or he held back due to loving his daughter, in his own twisted, "Worst father of the decade"-way.
-She did defeat Talia in S8, which... I'm actually somewhat okay with. It is demonstrated in their fight that Talia is the superior swordswoman, and Thea only wins by being aware of her surroundings (plus Talia channeling "The Climb"-Ollie for the killing stroke there). Maybe a few points for the superior Queen genes there (actually, the Dearden genes, since they would have to be inherited from dear old Moira).


However, no significant durability/damage soak feats for her as well.

[big_adventure]

Fair enough, just nitpicking on the "health club dude" part .

Also, I quickly rechecked Thea's fights for fun... Eh, I'd say it's the same as Sara, except with less experience. Her feats are not that bad, except that they come with caveats:
-Her Anarky fight is probably her best feat (plus it was under bloodlust). Anarky is actually pretty good, capable of deflecting arrows. However, when Ollie is at the top of his game, he treats him like a nuisance while having to find a bomb and fire a disarming arrow at it.
Thea vs Anarky (plus Ollie being rusty)
Non-rusty GA vs Anarky (bonus: Ollie using his... usual methods to dissuade people from embracing the vigilante lifestyle)

-A lot of defeating mooks.
-She consistently held her own against Malcolm, but each time it was either in training conditions, or Malcolm was getting used to his cybernetic hand, or he held back due to loving his daughter, in his own twisted, "Worst father of the decade"-way.
-She did defeat Talia in S8, which... I'm actually somewhat okay with. It is demonstrated in their fight that Talia is the superior swordswoman, and Thea only wins by being aware of her surroundings (plus Talia channeling "The Climb"-Ollie for the killing stroke there). Maybe a few points for the superior Queen genes there (actually, the Dearden genes, since they would have to be inherited from dear old Moira).


However, no significant durability/damage soak feats for her as well.

Fair enough.

And I'm much more OK with Season 8 Thea (note, I haven't watched Season 8) being significantly better, given the years she's had to train. It's just that training during one summer vacay doesn't really seem like enough to turn one from druggy party girl into psycho street ninja, not with a high survival rate. :-) I don't know what the argument for "better than Talia" could be outside of "Talia went way overboard during confinement, never got off the couch, and ate three ponts of Ben & Jerry's a day" given that Talia was Ollie-ish 5 years ago, but that's Arrowverse for you. The "Fastest Man Alive" has basically never, throughout the history of the show, actually BEEN the "Fastest."

[big_adventure]

Matt had a hard time (to the point of needing help from another dude) lifting up a manhole cover. Guess any regular dude is stronger then he is, bringing up low tier examples of Ollie losing is about as valid as me bringing up Spiderman beating firelord, as is going "muh realism" to discredit feats

That wasn't a "low tier" showing for the guy. That was him fighting a guy and getting taken apart like a joke. You want to use part of that exact same feat as high end, well, I think it's fair to bring up the entire feat package. He climbed a mountain of... questionable difficulty. To be fair, so did R'as and his attendants. Let's also ignore Ollie's idiocy in challenging R'as on R'as's terms, but then, Ollie does Vegeta himself from time to time. Ollie then takes a sword and is completely, trivially dismantled by his foe, and opts for the questionable choice in sheathing his opponent's blade through his torso. I did not learn that in my kendo class, but Ollie had different teachers than I did so, you know. He tumbles and survives. But note, he doesn't shrug this off, it takes him months to get up and get moving, and it's only being helped by someone else that makes this happen.

Anyway... to go back to the beginning on this, despite this, I don't think this is a stomp and never claimed so. Matt is just somewhat more skilled and agile and has advantages in the environment propoposed by the original question. It's enough to offset Ollie's range game and put Matt in the driver's seat, and so enough to win Matt a majority. Ollie would still kick my ass and three of my friends at the same time. He's just not fighting me and my friends.