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  1. #166
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    Almost nothing about the Five are retcons. They're developments.

  2. #167
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Steel Inquisitor;4917804]
    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    You must not have. Most stories from the past 15 years have dropped the pretense that Xavier is some sweet innocent old man and if you go back to stories prior, the new revelations shed light on some of his previous questionable actions. I used to be bamboozled by you but he's had a bit of a dark side to him for a long time. Thats what most people call a hypocrite





    Yes.



    1) Which was a dick move, and now she's on Krakoa. She did worse once she got unleashed and used sentinels to kill people.
    2) I didn't read that event, are you implying Xavier murdered the Lost X-men and covered it up?
    3) Agreed.
    4) That was a reaction to Magneto stripping Wolverine of his admantium right in front of him. Xavier went too far to punish him, but he's always been too soft on Eric. He regretted doing this once he learnt it created Onslaught.
    5) Considering who his enemies are, it's surprising more X-men aren't doing this.
    6) Theoretically specking the concept was sound, since the X-men aren't immune to mind control or turning evil. Apocalypse routinely recruited them for his Horsemen.
    7) What was the context?

    Those incidents didn't define his character unlike now, which is what's occurring now. He wasn't doing this every week in the comic books, unlike now where his behaviour is to be a dick 24/7. Hickman amplified his bad traits, that's why I bought up the idea that he was inverted. His bad traits are all he is these days. Can't be in an argument without reading peoples mind and completely ok with Emma Frost mind wiping people while showing fake concern that it was wrong while smiling.

    Xavier does have a shady past, no doubt. What he isn't is a super-villain, unlike now.
    1. What Danger did was reactive to what was done to her. Its hard to fault her when she was an A.I. and was ultimately molded by Xavier's directives when he initially ignored her

    2. No Im saying he sent a bunch of inexperienced children to their deaths and covered it up. The X-men at least had years worth of training before going on that mission. The Deadly Genesis team didnt and were killed

    6. It showed what a sick individual he was. Most of the X-men do not think about killing each other if one is mind controlled.

    8. He claimed to do it for his family's safety but that was bull has he didnt do that to anyone else. It came across more like a power move to control him

    What evil deeds is Xavier currently committing? How is Hickman writing him like a super villian. Please share bc I not see it. He's not all that different than he has been from the past 15 years. The only misdeed I can think of is him lying about Moira which he has good reason to but that again falls in line with the shady Xavier that keeps secrets and isnt completely honest with his X-men

  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    1. What Danger did was reactive to what was done to her. Its hard to fault her when she was an A.I. and was ultimately molded by Xavier's directives when he initially ignored her
    This is a double standard. She gets sympathy for what happened to her, which was wrong - and she went homicidal - which was exactly what Xavier feared. There is no excuse for murder, which she did out of revenge. She's done far more destruction than past Xavier did with that.

    2. No Im saying he sent a bunch of inexperienced children to their deaths and covered it up. The X-men at least had years worth of training before going on that mission. The Deadly Genesis team didnt and were killed
    Sounds like he was desperate, the only thing wrong about this was covering it up. Deadly missions are routine for super-hero groups, and casualties are a fact of life.

    6. It showed what a sick individual he was. Most of the X-men do not think about killing each other if one is mind controlled.
    They're dangerous super-heroes and many of them have turned on the X-men. Colossus joined the Brotherhood for a time, willingly. He didn't do that because he secretly wants to murder his students, it's a preventative measure - like what Batman did with the Justice League.

    8. He claimed to do it for his family's safety but that was bull has he didnt do that to anyone else. It came across more like a power move to control him
    Ok, this is a minor power move nothing severely bad. He didn't do it out of malice or to cover up a secret.

    What evil deeds is Xavier currently committing? How is Hickman writing him like a super villian. Please share bc I not see it. He's not all that different than he has been from the past 15 years. The only misdeed I can think of is him lying about Moira which he has good reason to but that again falls in line with the shady Xavier that keeps secrets and isnt completely honest with his X-men
    Allying with his greatest enemies and be too comfy around them. He is completely ok with Apocalypse colonising Otherworld for Krakoa and putting Rogue into a magic coffin (her words). Using Magneto as the face of Krakoa, and not a Magneto ehe he was the school master of the X-men. He extorts humanity with the drugs and is ok with the Hellfire club doing illegal activities. He regularly reads people's minds without they consent, has he shown any concern about the Crucible? Magneto and him are far too close, there is no difference of opinion The Franklin Richards incident, the kid is just an asset to him to be exploited. There is no humanity currently in Xavier. He sent Sabretooth and Mystique to steal from Damage Control, no thought went into how to restrain them for hating people and when they did it was simply an excuse to imprison Sabretooth. Look at Carey's X-men for how the X-men restrain him when they need him for missions and he did nothing. How he's framed with Hickman is that of a super-villain when he's in a scene, all that's missing is him stroking a white cat in his lap. Not all secret keeping is the same. There is a different context when Batman and Lex Luthor do it.

    What I'm not getting is that's ok with him now, but you disliked him for doing bad activities in the past?

  4. #169
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    This is a double standard. She gets sympathy for what happened to her, which was wrong - and she went homicidal - which was exactly what Xavier feared. There is no excuse for murder, which she did out of revenge. She's done far more destruction than past Xavier did with that.
    It actually isnt. Danger isnt human. She is an A.I. and did not know the concept of right and wrong unlike Xavier. She was a product of her surroundings and trapped in the Danger Room, what she was exposed to was primarily violence. If she were to go around killing now, it would be a different story as she's had time to acclimate to the rules of this world and has lived among others. That was all foreign to her before

    Sounds like he was desperate, the only thing wrong about this was covering it up. Deadly missions are routine for super-hero groups, and casualties are a fact of life.
    Most people dont send a group of untrained kids to their deaths.

    They're dangerous super-heroes and many of them have turned on the X-men. Colossus joined the Brotherhood for a time, willingly. He didn't do that because he secretly wants to murder his students, it's a preventative measure - like what Batman did with the Justice League.
    Colossus never joined the Brotherhood. You mean Acolytes. He wasnt a villian and never once fought them as a member of that group.

    Ok, this is a minor power move nothing severely bad. He didn't do it out of malice or to cover up a secret.
    It was an abuse of his power and one done to manipulate a teenager into being lean on him after he got rid of his family.

    Allying with his greatest enemies and be too comfy around them. He is completely ok with Apocalypse colonising Otherworld for Krakoa and putting Rogue into a magic coffin (her words). Using Magneto as the face of Krakoa, and not a Magneto ehe he was the school master of the X-men. He extorts humanity with the drugs and is ok with the Hellfire club doing illegal activities. He regularly reads people's minds without they consent, has he shown any concern about the Crucible? Magneto and him are far too close, there is no difference of opinion The Franklin Richards incident, the kid is just an asset to him to be exploited. There is no humanity currently in Xavier. He sent Sabretooth and Mystique to steal from Damage Control, no thought went into how to restrain them for hating people and when they did it was simply an excuse to imprison Sabretooth. Look at Carey's X-men for how the X-men restrain him when they need him for missions and he did nothing. How he's framed with Hickman is that of a super-villain when he's in a scene, all that's missing is him stroking a white cat in his lap. Not all secret keeping is the same. There is a different context when Batman and Lex Luthor do it.

    What I'm not getting is that's ok with him now, but you disliked him for doing bad activities in the past?
    Xavier has regularly read people's mind without their consent since the beginning of the X-men in the 60s and has mindwiped and manipulated them. This is nothing new.

    The X-men have been allying with their enemies quite regularly for the past 15 or so years. It was rare when Claremont had Magneto join the team in the 80s but the likes of Sabretooth, Juggernaut, Sebastian Shaw, Mystique has been quite commonplace.

    I used to like Xavier growing up but woke up to his hypocrisy. I accept it for what it is now. I dont see him as evil right now but I also dont see him as really all that different as before. I have major objections to him having using Cerebro to record everyone's thoughts all this time but no one seems to object to that. There's less hypocrisy right now bc he's allowed so many others into his plan. He doesnt act alone this time but has given many a seat at the table. The Moira lie is the only thing that we know of that he's kept to himself and thats her wishes and to protect her.

  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frobisher View Post
    He’s not a dictator - he’s a member of the quiet council with the same vote as any other.
    Honestly I think that Xavier lets the Quiet Council think they have real power, gives them the illusion of authority because its what he wants them to believe. So yeah he will let them have seats at the table and vote on issues and decide policies but in truth it's he and Magneto along with Moira holding the true power on Krakoa. Personally I have no problem with that, afterall they built Krakoa and was under no obligation to share power with anyone else. I always thought he and Magneto should have been the two main leaders with Moira doing her thing in the background. But I have no issues with them going this route. It keeps the key figures occupied while Charles and Erik carry out their plans with Moira. I suspect it won't end well but I am loving this version of Xavier, from his mentality down to his new look.

  6. #171
    Incredible Member Journey's Avatar
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    Has it occurred to any of y'all maybe Chucky boy has just always been a cocky douche?

  7. #172
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Those incidents didn't define his character unlike now, which is what's occurring now. He wasn't doing this every week in the comic books, unlike now where his behaviour is to be a dick 24/7. Hickman amplified his bad traits, that's why I bought up the idea that he was inverted. His bad traits are all he is these days. Can't be in an argument without reading peoples mind and completely ok with Emma Frost mind wiping people while showing fake concern that it was wrong while smiling.

    Xavier does have a shady past, no doubt. What he isn't is a super-villain, unlike now.
    He did shady, questionable things in the past, but, at some point, he was always went back on what he did: regrets, doubts, questions… He was flawed but these were human flaws. It's human to look on your past and asks yourself: '…and if I have done things differently, would it have been better or worse?'
    I don't see many doubts in this new Xavier. And this is why he isn't sympathetic to me.

    Villain… I don't know. He doesn't seem to have a lot of scruples. Characters have been called villains for less than that.
    Villain for the greater good of Krakoa? It sounds like the mitigating circumstances given to 'poor Magneto', survivor of a horrible episode of history. (And there was also Genosha. How many traumatic experiences can you have before losing it completely?)

  8. #173
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor;
    This is a double standard. She gets sympathy for what happened to her, which was wrong - and she went homicidal - which was exactly what Xavier feared.
    That's the same logic Kathye (Wayside School) uses to justify why she hates Mrs Jewel. Kathywas afraid her cat would run away so she kept it locked up 24/7 sometimes forgetting to feed it. Because of this every time the cat saw her it was pissed and Kathy wasn't nice back. Mrs Jewel heard about this and suggested Kathy let the cat out and be nice to it. Kathy told her it's just run away and ignored the advice. One day Kathy didn't shut the door all the wayol and the cat took off and didn't return. Which 'proved' she had been right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor;
    There is no excuse for murder, which she did out of revenge. She's done far more destruction than past Xavier did with that.
    Danger killed one person. Wing by convincing him Uto kill himself. Xavier....as Onslaught killed ya know...abuncha heroes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor;
    What I'm not getting is that's ok with him now, but you disliked him for doing bad activities in the past?
    Sooo just to be 100%
    Xavier:
    Enslaving q sentient being forcing it get assaulted almost every day, "dying" when the mansion was destroyed
    Good
    Getting a buncha teens that wouldn't be missed to go on a mission to rescue the Varsity squad.When it went wrong covering up the deaths, killing them a 2nd Time
    Good
    Mind rape?
    Still Good
    Nights spent coming up ways to kill his young students?
    Good as ever
    Erasing a kid from his parent?
    Good


    Wheras now Hes like..
    Being cordial to former enemies
    Asking Humans to pay for life bettering/ extebded Drugs
    And he's a super Villain??
    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    Has it occurred to any of y'all maybe Chucky boy have just always been a cocky douche?
    Not really
    GrindrStone(D)

  9. #174
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Xavier has always been a jerk but if you only watch cartoons or movies you forget.

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    That's the same logic Kathye (Wayside School) uses to justify why she hates Mrs Jewel. Kathywas afraid her cat would run away so she kept it locked up 24/7 sometimes forgetting to feed it. Because of this every time the cat saw her it was pissed and Kathy wasn't nice back. Mrs Jewel heard about this and suggested Kathy let the cat out and be nice to it. Kathy told her it's just run away and ignored the advice. One day Kathy didn't shut the door all the wayol and the cat took off and didn't return. Which 'proved' she had been right.
    I wouldn't classify homicide as not being "nice." She killed someone, a fellow mutant at that. She tried to kill Xavier, as well, so add attempted murder to the list. In Genosha Danger convinced an Omega Sentinel to massacre mutants there. A big reason why Danger hadn't racket up more deaths is because she was programmed not to kill mutants, that's why she resorted to indirect methods.

    Danger killed one person. Wing by convincing him Uto kill himself. Xavier....as Onslaught killed ya know...abuncha heroes.
    Deliberately killing someone is an act society sends people to prison for, as its highly unethical and against the law since it is murder. You're reaching with Onslaught, that was an entity accidentally created that fused into a homicidal entity, who acted more like Magneto than Xavier. In fact, its Xavier side was holding it back - that's why it wanted the X-men to free Xavier from its psychic prison - which it was able to unleash its full might on its enemies. You may as well blame Hank McCoy for what the Dark Beast does.

    Sooo just to be 100%
    Xavier:
    Enslaving q sentient being forcing it get assaulted almost every day, "dying" when the mansion was destroyed
    Good
    Getting a buncha teens that wouldn't be missed to go on a mission to rescue the Varsity squad.When it went wrong covering up the deaths, killing them a 2nd Time
    Good
    Mind rape?
    Still Good
    Nights spent coming up ways to kill his young students?
    Good as ever
    Erasing a kid from his parent?
    Good
    Don't be disingenuous by warping my arguments by reducing them to "good" when the context was more gray.

    1) Which I agreed was wrong, and it killed someone when it got free and it wasn't by accident. You're omitted Danger convinced Wing to commit suicide. Of course that sort of thing is like missing a traffic light given that numerous super-villains there are free to do whatever in Krakoa or are easily forgiven because they serve a higher purpose, like Mr. Sinister. Who makes Danger look like a kitten.
    2) You're framing that like he deliberately murdered them himself and covered it up. That island? Krakoa. You can't kill someone a second time by covering up their deaths, that's not how it works.
    3) Which I agreed was wrong and is the worst thing he's done. Its implied he's doing this more in krakoa.
    4) He's not Jason, and I went over why this might be a plausible defence. What with them getting mind controlled or joining Apocalypse or the Brotherhood to commit terrorist acts.
    5) Again, that was wrong.

    I don't recall you being this balks and white in our arguments over people like Magneto or other super-villains on Krakoa, who make Xavier on his worst day look like Captain America.

    Wheras now Hes like..
    Being cordial to former enemies
    Asking Humans to pay for life bettering/ extebded Drugs
    And he's a super Villain??
    Not really
    Being nice to enemies is being polite to them over a cup of tea, he's letting them commit crimes under his authority. That wasn't "asking," that was extortion in a threatening message - the type usually reserved for when super-villains make intimidating speeches to the public, and that's not counting Krakoa's first officially meeting with the human world that Magneto attended because Xavier was conveniently "busy" elsewhere. Your minimising how problematic the Quiet Council and its government approved activities are. Pre-Krakoa the X-men would have been trying to shut them down within a week.

    Where is this judgement with the other villains in Krakoa?

    I'm curious about why you're a fan of the X-men, considering Xavier is far from the only X-man to have done shady things in the past. Does this hatred and distrust apply to those, as well? Are they evil?

  11. #176
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    1) Current Xavier hasn't even done anything too bad yet.

    2) Hickman said he sees Xavier as a hero, so the whole reason this argument is happening("Xavier is a supervillain now!!! When he was a hero before!!!") doesn't even check.

  12. #177
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Just dropping by to say that the fact that Danger became a killer was all because of Xavier lol and it isn't implied anywhere that he's mind controlling or reading mind now more than he ever did. And are we really at the point of defending Xavier for the Deadly Genesis stuff to make current Xavier look bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    1) Current Xavier hasn't even done anything too bad yet.

    2) Hickman said he sees Xavier as a hero, so the whole reason this argument is happening("Xavier is a supervillain now!!! When he was a hero before!!!") doesn't even check.
    He even said he still loves humanity.

  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    1) Current Xavier hasn't even done anything too bad yet.
    Early on he greenlit Mystique and Sabretooth, yes that Sabretooth, to steal something from Damage Control which ended up with human casualties. He did this without any restraints on Sabretooth, when we all know how dangerous he is around anything with a pulse. For context, in Carey's run, when Rogue "enlisted" him because of his knowledge of the Children of the Vault, he was kept inprisoned routinely (from adamantium chains to being thrown deep into a floating tanker and being put in a stasis field), as well as having nanites put into his bloodstream - because he's an unhinged murderous psychopath known for trying to gut X-men any chance he can get, and anyone else he can get his claws on. This wasn't a mission for the Brotherhood to do mutant terrorism on in the "good old days" this was approved by the highest ranking politicians in Krakoa - which include Xavier. That's just the beginning of shady things he's been up in Hickman's run.

    2) Hickman said he sees Xavier as a hero, so the whole reason this argument is happening("Xavier is a supervillain now!!! When he was a hero before!!!") doesn't even check.
    You're going to have to come up with more robust arguments then a vague quote of Hickman to deny Xavier's behaviour, post- Krakoa, we're evaluating his deeds. We've had numerous threads about activists he's involved in which he'd be throwing super-villains in prison for before Hickman arrived. This ignores the fact how Hickman has framed Xavier through his run as though he's a cackling super-villain visually and how he interacts with people.

  14. #179
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    You use Xavier as a scapegoat while ignoring the fact that he isnt the final say on anything on Krakoa. The Council all have equal pull. You think Storm, Jean, Nightcrawler are all now super villians, worse than anything pre-Hickman? Because if you feel this way about Xavier, I cant see how you dont feel the same about them

  15. #180
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    O c'mon as if they had never had strike teams that weren't shy about killing. Sabretooth was also punished for what he did. That's not supervillany, that's being naive about Creed at most.

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