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  1. #181
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    1) Current Xavier hasn't even done anything too bad yet.
    So he has done bad things then…

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    2) Hickman said he sees Xavier as a hero, so the whole reason this argument is happening("Xavier is a supervillain now!!! When he was a hero before!!!") doesn't even check.
    Is Hickman a moral authority?

  2. #182
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    O c'mon as if they had never had strike teams that weren't shy about killing. Sabretooth was also punished for what he did. That's not supervillany, that's being naive about Creed at most.
    This. It also ignores the fact that everyone has been given a chance at redemption. Creed got his, he failed and was promptly punished for it

  3. #183
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    1. What Danger did was reactive to what was done to her. Its hard to fault her when she was an A.I. and was ultimately molded by Xavier's directives when he initially ignored her
    I can't hold Danger against him because her backstory doesn't make a lick of sense when you look at all the times the Danger Room was destroyed,rebuilt by people other than Xavier, and how safety protocals were turned off on almost a regular basis.

    This. It also ignores the fact that everyone has been given a chance at redemption. Creed got his, he failed and was promptly punished for it
    Creed has been given several shots at redemption over the years. He's always gone back to just been a sadistic killer. It's what he enjoys doing. I don't know why people keep trying to give him a chance.

  4. #184
    Incredible Member starduck's Avatar
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    When was X revealed to be an impostor?

  5. #185
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    I don’t get why people are so hung up on the drugs angle. I guess if you were a hardline Communist I’d understand it, but I would be surprised if that was the reason for most people.

  6. #186
    Mighty Member zinderel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Creed has been given several shots at redemption over the years. He's always gone back to just been a sadistic killer. It's what he enjoys doing. I don't know why people keep trying to give him a chance.
    I agree that Creed doesn’t deserve any more chances - and hasn’t for a very long time - but I think him being sent out was both in hope that he would, like so many other villains who came to Krakoa, accept the new reality and stop being a worthless pile of crap...and a convenient way to get him to cross the line early and allow an example to be made of an irredeemable, worthless, useless monster.

    I would be thrilled to never see Creed again, unless it’s AoA Creed.

  7. #187
    Mighty Member zinderel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    I don’t get why people are so hung up on the drugs angle. I guess if you were a hardline Communist I’d understand it, but I would be surprised if that was the reason for most people.
    ‘Drugs’ is a scary word, and is deliberately used to evoke a visceral reaction to the idea of Xavier being akin to a Colombian drug lord. ‘Medicine’ is more accurate, or ‘exported goods’, but those terms don’t evoke the knee-jerk negative reaction that ‘drugs’ does. They are less scary-sounding, and thus don’t really serve the same purpose of providing straws to grasp at as ‘proof’ that Xavier is evil now for daring to try to utilize global trade and economic strategies to secure a place for mutants at the global table, since diplomacy and ‘being nice’ has failed at every turn. By having a unique product that relies on the endemic qualities of Krakoa to produce and refine, that seat hopefully includes the stipulation of ‘not being scape goats on an international scale anymore’.
    Last edited by zinderel; 04-03-2020 at 07:57 PM.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    You use Xavier as a scapegoat while ignoring the fact that he isnt the final say on anything on Krakoa. The Council all have equal pull. You think Storm, Jean, Nightcrawler are all now super villians, worse than anything pre-Hickman? Because if you feel this way about Xavier, I cant see how you dont feel the same about them
    Xavier has immense sway in Krakoa, as well being a huge influence on the X-men faction, Krakoa is supposed to be his new vision and Moria recruited him first. Of course he's not the only bad person there, I'm singling him out here because the thread is about him. All the X-men are compromised when they got to Krakoa, especially those on the Council. You make it sound Xavier has no clue what's going on when we know he's the one who has imputes on orders where it comes to the X-men and Hellfire Club. He's the one who wanted to bring in Shaw! The X-men are compromised but how they reacted is not the same as Xavier, who started acting like a super-villain as soon as Krakoa was a go. Nightcrawler, and Jean have shown doubts where he hasn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    O c'mon as if they had never had strike teams that weren't shy about killing. Sabretooth was also punished for what he did. That's not supervillany, that's being naive about Creed at most.
    Xavier and everyone else have no excuses about being naive about Sabretooth. He only got punished because they put him in that situation in the first place, unless it was a set up to get him thrown in the hole - the Xavier I know wouldn't allow for innocent people to get murdered simply to punish Sabretooth. He wouldn't let Sabretooth go on any missions, period, unless he was sure they had precautions in place and only if they needed him for some reason and they didn't need him for that mission.

    It wasn't a strike team, it was a smash and grab job. He murdered guards for no reason (actually no - the reason is that he's a mass murdering psychopath), Mystique didn't hurt anyone. If you knew anything about Creed you wouldn't put him in a position to hurt people.
    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 04-03-2020 at 09:54 PM.

  9. #189
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinderel View Post
    ‘Drugs’ is a scary word, and is deliberately used to evoke a visceral reaction to the idea of Xavier being akin to a Colombian drug lord. ‘Medicine’ is more accurate, or ‘exported goods’, but those terms don’t evoke the knee-jerk negative reaction that ‘drugs’ does. They are less scary-sounding, and thus don’t really serve the same purpose of providing straws to grasp at as ‘proof’ that Xavier is evil now for daring to try to utilize global trade and economic strategies to secure a place for mutants at the global table, since diplomacy and ‘being nice’ has failed at every turn. By having a unique product that relies on the endemic qualities of Krakoa to produce and refine, that seat hopefully includes the stipulation of ‘not being scape goats on an international scale anymore’.
    'Drug' and 'Medicine' are not that different… I can utter a more villainous word: blackmail.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinderel View Post
    ‘Drugs’ is a scary word, and is deliberately used to evoke a visceral reaction to the idea of Xavier being akin to a Colombian drug lord. ‘Medicine’ is more accurate, or ‘exported goods’, but those terms don’t evoke the knee-jerk negative reaction that ‘drugs’ does. They are less scary-sounding, and thus don’t really serve the same purpose of providing straws to grasp at as ‘proof’ that Xavier is evil now for daring to try to utilize global trade and economic strategies to secure a place for mutants at the global table, since diplomacy and ‘being nice’ has failed at every turn. By having a unique product that relies on the endemic qualities of Krakoa to produce and refine, that seat hopefully includes the stipulation of ‘not being scape goats on an international scale anymore’.
    You mustn't be up to date with what the cartels are doing with the drugs, Shaw himself is making deals with cartels over them. That's why Krakoa wants him for, and everyone knows it. They have plausible deniability too many people but not to readers. Xavier is deep into this, he just looks the other way and gives a knowing wink to Emma Frost. Their Hellfire enterprise is partially a front for the activities.

  11. #191
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Xavier has immense sway in Krakoa, as well being a huge influence on the X-men faction, Krakoa is supposed to be his new vision and Moria recruited him first. Of course he's not the only bad person there, I'm singling him out here because the thread is about him. All the X-men are compromised when they got to Krakoa, especially those on the Council. You make it sound Xavier has no clue what's going on when we know he's the one who has imputes on orders where it comes to the X-men and Hellfire Club. He's the one who wanted to bring in Shaw! The X-men are compromised but how they reacted is not the same as Xavier, who started acting like a super-villain as soon as Krakoa was a go. Nightcrawler, and Jean have shown doubts where he hasn't.



    Xavier and everyone else have no excuses about being naive about Sabretooth. He only got punished because they put him in that situation in the first place, unless it was a set up to get him thrown in the hole - the Xavier I know wouldn't allow for innocent people to get murdered simply to punish Sabretooth. He wouldn't let Sabretooth go on any missions, period, unless he was sure they had precautions in place and only if they needed him for some reason and they didn't need him for that mission.

    It wasn't a strike team, it was a smash and grab job. He murdered guards for no reason (actually no - the reason is that he's a mass murdering psychopath), Mystique didn't hurt anyone. If you knew anything about Creed you wouldn't put him in a position to hurt people.
    That's still not being a villain, that's being dumb and trusting the Brotherhood. And they punished him very harshly, if they were villains they'd have said good job, Creed.

  12. #192
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    You mustn't be up to date with what the cartels are doing with the drugs, Shaw himself is making deals with cartels over them. That's why Krakoa wants him for, and everyone knows it. They have plausible deniability too many people but not to readers. Xavier is deep into this, he just looks the other way and gives a knowing wink to Emma Frost. Their Hellfire enterprise is partially a front for the activities.
    The Hellfire Club black market dealings are still a way of helping mutants. They use Shaw's connections to bring drugs into countries that need them and bring out mutants. Such baddies.

    The fact that Shaw is being a jerk about it is a different thing and Emma is obviously going to deal with it.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    That's still not being a villain, that's being dumb and trusting the Brotherhood. And they punished him very harshly, if they were villains they'd have said good job, Creed.
    Nothing about that is in character for Xavier, it's what I'de expect from Magneto give his storm troopers in the Brotherhood. They punished him after doing what they knew he was going to do, Sabretooth didn't do it on his own. Xavier's been trusting the Brotherhood and Hellfire Club too much lately, Magneto's his number two at the moment. The "dumb" excuse has no merit, everyone knows what's Sabretooth does.

    The Hellfire Club black market dealings are still a way of helping mutants. They use Shaw's connections to bring drugs into countries that need them and bring out mutants. Such baddies.
    "Helping mutants" isn't a broad excuse they can hide behind every nefarious plot they get up too. It's what the Brotherhood use when they hurt people. When those "baddies" are cartels, yes, they are the baddies. When did the X-men get into bed with organised crime? Emma wasn't this corrupt when she was on the X-men.

    The fact that Shaw is being a jerk about it is a different thing and Emma is obviously going to deal with it.
    You mean Kitty? They don't mind everything else he does, which is Shaw being Shaw.
    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 04-04-2020 at 05:51 AM.

  14. #194
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    So he has done bad things then…
    Yeah, just like he had before. My point is that he didn't really change(at least when it comes to his sense of morality).

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Is Hickman a moral authority?
    People are free to have their own interpretations of course, but the implication I'm getting from people's comments is that Xavier is being intentionally written as a supervillain, to show how the current status quo is bad or whatever, when that's not actually the writer's intention as far we know.
    Last edited by Wiccan; 04-04-2020 at 05:50 AM.

  15. #195
    Mighty Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    Yeah, just like he had before. My point is that he didn't really change(at least when it comes to his sense of morality).



    People are free to have their own interpretations of course, but the implication I'm getting from people's comments is that Xavier is being intentionally written as a supervillain, to show how the current status quo is bad or whatever, when that's not actually the writer's intention as far we know.
    Agreed

    I think most of these arguments are either taken without context or blown out of proportion to make their case and that´s why they are not convincing, at least for me imo,neither Xavier or the X-men have succedenly become drug lords just for doing international commerce with the world at large, just like Wankanda does with the vibranium, Xavier is using a product from Krakoa to help the economy in their country. Yes, they are a fictional country that could in theory sustain itself without commerce, but this fact doesn´t make them villains just for selling it to the world. If they made the argument of Xavier being unnecesary agressive on his message to the world that he could have send over the TV then I understand it but this exaggerated reaction over Krakoa´s medicine I just don´t buy.

    But well Hickman said in one of his interviews he understood if people began to question the X-men actions, in fact he´s writing them to get that reaction and I can see why, because they have moved out from their previous status quo and are being deliverately up front about what they want to do and how they are going to do it, but the fact of the matter is that they are not doing anything outside of the norm from other countries by making commerce and developing dyplomatic ties across the world. Even what has some readers saying "The X-men want to take over the world" by having influence on the educative or economic sphere that´s actually something quite common too, they are just going to do it to take off the edge from mutant hate organizations that will not stop doing what they are doing whaterver the X-men do so it makes sense to change the strategy when it´s about them.


    Now about Xavier it´s really frustrating to me as a fan the people keep trying to paint Xavier as a villain by saying "That´s something Magneto would have done with his brotherhood not him" I am like, please, Xavier has never been a saint, he has his good and bad moments and it´s unfair to blame Magneto for Xavier´s own choices, past or present. We have alredy seen how´s Magneto is as a leader of a country, the main different between Magneto and Xavier is that magneto is a whole more upfront and agressive about what he does and why while Xavier, not just with Krakoa but since he was an X-men leader, is a lot more secretive, that has not changed at all. But despite their personal flaws they are trying to do what they can to help develop Krakoa as an actual place where mutants can live.

    This doesn´t mean I think what Beast is doing on X-force is ok in fact I am waiting to see the other X-men reaction to what he´s doing, I don´t think it was ok or right for Xavier to allow his death to develop a patriotic sense for other Krakoa´s members but I would not say that´s new since he did that since the silver age to the X-men and only told Jean the truth, so yes, this is something he can and would do as a personal choice, that´s actually part of who he´s as a character, even Claremont´s Xavier once mentally controlled the New Mutants when they thought he was dead and then made them forget that memory, only Magik remembers that. Yes, Xavier is also an idealist who seeks peace between humans and mutants and has done a lot of good things for the X-men as persons and as heroes and has saved the world and even the universe, this doesn´t mean his less heroic traits make him somebody else imo.

    Sorry for the wall of text
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 04-04-2020 at 06:59 AM.
    "The time for subtlety is passing. Now is the time for change." [New Mutants (Vol. 1) #38]

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