*IF* Rey is a Mary Sue... then Ben Solo’s *definitely* a “Gary Stu.”

[Starter Set]

Wasn't thinking about the rocks, actually. The point is, it's somehow okay for Luke to learn a skill all on his own, but when Rey pulls the same stunt in TFA with the same skill, it's somehow wrong. I find that very interesting, esp. since, as I've pointed out again and again, a lot of this stuff is in line with what's come before.

Except that Luke didn't learn anything on his own, he has been a bit trained by Ben in the first movie. It's not like if he invented it. And no, Rey being a master in the force as soon as she landed her hands on a lightsaber is not something in line with what was done before lol.

But you are also going to tell that it's completely normal for her to know how to sail during a storm despite the fact tha she grew up in A DESERT.

[Celestialbeyonder]

Except that Luke graduated despite having nowhere near the ten years his father needed, the fact that new powers are being introduced in almost every movie (sometimes with the idea that an experienced user is doing them, sometimes not).

He still needed to train for years. There were 3 years between ANH and TESB and 1 year between TESB and ROTJ. Compare this to Marey Sue that is near perfect after 1 WEEK....

It's shown time and again in those first two movies that Rey is powerless against fully trained Force users who are at full health,

Guess Kylo really didnt want that lightsaber that badly…..

As far as the Guards, she does have melee experience to draw on beyond what little she knew about the Force.

1. The Guards have probably FAR more experience than her
2. If she is so weak and low Level - why does experienced healthy trained force user Kylo Ren have as much problems with the Guards as she does?

By the time of TROS, she has been fully trained

By who? Lea wasnt trained very well by Luke. And just one year to reach Jedi Master Level? Not as bad as 1 week - but still pretty Marey Suee.

Just like Luke in ESB. (Also like Luke with the Force choke in ROTJ).

Luke had 3 YEARS between ANH and ESB, how often must we go over this?
Luke never choked the Gammorean, he just pushed him backwards.

[Conn Seanery]

If I see any more personal shots I'm going to start bouncing those responsible for them. Keep it about the films, don't get personal.

[Moon Ronin]

Wasn't thinking about the rocks, actually. The point is, it's somehow okay for Luke to learn a skill all on his own, but when Rey pulls the same stunt in TFA with the same skill , it's somehow wrong. I find that very interesting, esp. since, as I've pointed out again and again, a lot of this stuff is in line with what's come before.

Rey really didn't "pull the same stunts" to be fair and the skill is on different level. Compare Luke's ability to use the Force in ANH to Rey's in the TFA. Luke does a little trick with a lightsaber with a remote with a blast shield down on a helmet after a small force lesson for Obi-Wan, Then with some encouragement from disembodied Obi-Wan Force voice he makes the shot that destroys the Death Star with out using his targeting computer. Rey resist a trained force user in interrogation, Masters the no look Jedi mind trick, and uses force pull all with just Han saying the Force is real as her introducing to the force.

Luke's uses of the force were very small compared to what Rey did and over a longer period of time. Luke moves a lightsaber and a few small rocks with R2 thrown in, Rey moves tons of rocks all at once. When Luke did things in the force it felt earned, where Yoda said that he must first unlearn what he has learned. He had known about the Force for years, had a force ghost talk to him, went into training with a Jedi Master and still had trouble believing it all (which is why he failed) until he accepted his role with the Force. It felt like a lot of Rey's character development was missing with her Matrix "I know Kung Fu" way of learning the Force.

[godisawesome]

Rey really didn't "pull the same stunts" to be fair and the skill is on different level. Compare Luke's ability to use the Force in ANH to Rey's in the TFA. Luke does a little trick with a lightsaber with a remote with a blast shield down on a helmet after a small force lesson for Obi-Wan, Then with some encouragement from disembodied Obi-Wan Force voice he makes the shot that destroys the Death Star with out using his targeting computer. Rey resist a trained force user in interrogation, Masters the no look Jedi mind trick, and uses force pull all with just Han saying the Force is real as her introducing to the force.

Luke's uses of the force were very small compared to what Rey did and over a longer period of time. Luke moves a lightsaber and a few small rocks with R2 thrown in, Rey moves tons of rocks all at once. When Luke did things in the force it felt earned, where Yoda said that he must first unlearn what he has learned. He had known about the Force for years, had a force ghost talk to him, went into training with a Jedi Master and still had trouble believing it all (which is why he failed) until he accepted his role with the Force. It felt like a lot of Rey's character development was missing with her Matrix "I know Kung Fu" way of learning the Force.

The reason suggested by TFA and confirmed by LFL around the time of TLJ’s release was that Rey had “downloaded” some of Kylo’s knowledge through the interrogation scene, with the idea being that his brute force approach has no defenses and allowed her to grab the information because of how sloppy he is in violating her mind.

It’s a decision that I think was risky, had some major disadvantages and weaknesses with only a few very short-term advantages that *needed* to be compensated for. TFA did a little bit of compensation by having a Rey struggle and doing its best to deliver the short term benefit (Rey getting a cathartic victory against Kylo) while trying to retain Kylo’s in-story advantages over her (having a mental breakdown, being wounded multiple times, and winning the first two confrontations with Rey without any effort before showing him trying to capture her in order to excuse her victory over him), but that alone was insufficient, and honestly needed more compensation in TLJ to justify it.

Problem is Johnson had no interest in telling Rey’s story as a character. The characters he’s interested in are Luke, which no one really begrudges him that impulse (even if his execution is highly debatable), and Kylo... which becomes an actual liability to the story because of his obsession there not having any real basis in characterization. Both Luke and Rey end up absorbing Rey’s story and focus, which is partially why I think her Force powers are so non-chalanly upgraded even from TFA, and why the over-the-top display of raising the mountain of rocks seems so cartoonishly exaggerated and ridiculous, yet lacks even the character element that an “over-powered” character like Captain Marvel had.

I think Johnson was maybe trying to compensate for having Rey’s story go nowhere and remain kind of shallow by trying to make her über-powerful. I doubt he was self-aware of his obsession with Kylo Ren as a liability to the story, but I think he clued in that the main female heroine wasn’t getting central focus in the actual plot, and felt that making her powerful and implying that her not being a Skywalker was an inspiring thing somehow would balance out the part where he exiled her from the actual climax of the film.

That’s what I mean when I say that we either have no Mary Sues, or two Mary Sues. Rey has the overpowered part as an unrelated OC, while Kylo ends up becoming the black hole sucking in focus and crushing the moral underpinning of the story for the sake of the related OC Ben Solo.

[Moon Ronin]

The reason suggested by TFA and confirmed by LFL around the time of TLJ’s release was that Rey had “downloaded” some of Kylo’s knowledge through the interrogation scene, with the idea being that his brute force approach has no defenses and allowed her to grab the information because of how sloppy he is in violating her mind.
...

That’s what I mean when I say that we either have no Mary Sues, or two Mary Sues. Rey has the overpowered part as an unrelated OC, while Kylo ends up becoming the black hole sucking in focus and crushing the moral underpinning of the story for the sake of the related OC Ben Solo.

The "down load" is one more force power that I forgot to mention. It also take away from the earned aspect of a character portrays as they move farther in their journey. It is lazy story writing to simply "gift" the power and knowledge to Rey without some sort of requirement of a type to get there. It hurts the story and the character.

I don't see Kylo as a Mary Sue as much, as he actually has struggles that he over comes a character driven story with flaws and anger issues. Not that I totally agree with what was done with him Kylo was the better written and thought out character between the 2.

[Jackalope89]

The "down load" is one more force power that I forgot to mention. It also take away from the earned aspect of a character portrays as they move farther in their journey. It is lazy story writing to simply "gift" the power and knowledge to Rey without some sort of requirement of a type to get there. It hurts the story and the character.

I don't see Kylo as a Mary Sue as much, as he actually has struggles that he over comes a character driven story with flaws and anger issues. Not that I totally agree with what was done with him Kylo was the better written and thought out character between the 2.

With Rise of Skywalker, they turned Kylo into Edward from Twilight 2.0.

Seriously, should NEVER throw a bone to those kinds of shippers. Never ends well.

[godisawesome]

The "down load" is one more force power that I forgot to mention. It also take away from the earned aspect of a character portrays as they move farther in their journey. It is lazy story writing to simply "gift" the power and knowledge to Rey without some sort of requirement of a type to get there. It hurts the story and the character.

I don't see Kylo as a Mary Sue as much, as he actually has struggles that he over comes a character driven story with flaws and anger issues. Not that I totally agree with what was done with him Kylo was the better written and thought out character between the 2.

And Kylo gets gifted unearned sympathy and favoritism from the story, and its lazy story writing to simply “gift” the character sympathy on the part of their victim without any requirement of substantial knowledge or actions to refute the simple and logical equation that he’s simply a bad guy and nothing else.

And Kylo didn’t get to overcome any of his character flaws, or to struggle to be a hero as Ben Solo... unless those character flaws are “has a conscience that’s annoyingly creeps up when he’s trying to be a more depraved villain.” TLJ thinks he’s beautiful just the way he is, as a patricidal Neo-Nazi and school shooter, and lavishes attention and praise on Ben Solo as the kind of last ditch hope that Rey would have to think was key to saving the day, instead of being the thing that Rey needed to save the day from. TROS just sought to fulfill that idea while being fully aware that it was a fallacy; thus, instead of Kylo going through a character journey, because the character is too weak, shallow, and pathetic to do that believably, a magic trick is pulled and he replays the key scene in TFA to undo that moment, before the climax screeches to a halt to try and finagle a reason for him to be there.

Kylo’s too shallow and static, and Ben Solo too insubstantial, to really be a better written and well-thought out character than Rey, primarily because “well though-out” could never apply to a character who fundamentally never change, but instead has the entire franchise change around him where he can be viewed sympathetically instead. His character arc was basically just always sliding further into being a $#!+-stain for infuriatingly unexplored and self-centered reasons, before his fanbase’s desires hijacked the story in an inorganic way and pretended like he was someone completely different.

Rey has schizophrenic writing that changed her characterization and purpose to the story from film to film... but at least they tried to make her dynamic and develop her. Kylo didn’t change at all from his first scene as Kylo until his last scene as Kylo.

Now, I would argue Driver had a better time and an easier task than Ridley, and that probably plays into the disagreement here:

With Rise of Skywalker, they turned Kylo into Edward from Twilight 2.0.

Seriously, should NEVER throw a bone to those kinds of shippers. Never ends well.

Because all Driver had to do for 7/8ths of his appearances was play the same basic character - sad, self-absorbed @$$hole. And he did that very well.

Problem was that the only thing some people cared about was the “sad” part, and everything else was incidental to them. Johnson was one of them: TLJ clearly prioritized Kylo’s feelings above Rey’s suffering from the last film, her exploitation/abuse by Kylo in TLJ itself, and even Luke’s heroism and the life of his students and presumably countless others. And that audience reaction from some people was the only thing Lucasfilm thought was valuable about TFA and TLJ for the character in TROS.

So while the things people cared about with Driver’s performance were at least at the heart of his character’s cruddy story, the disinterest and apathy towards Rey as a character left Ridley struggling to find what compelling characterization her character was supposed to have.

At a certain point, a Draco In Leather Pants experiences enough favoritism and hyper-focus by the fan fiction writer that they’re also a Mary Sue that the story now revolves around.

That’s Ben Solo and Kylo Ren. I mean, if he weren’t than Rey would probably be the one getting a Charles Soule miniseries about her background.

[Moon Ronin]

I think they all the characters in the new trilogy sufficed form schizophrenic writing including the whole First Order. The "Tag your it" approach to writing allowed by Lucas Films created a strange Frankenstein's monster of a trilogy.
Kilo/Ben had the potential to be an awesome story of complete and total irredeemable turn to the dark side as Abrams set up. He was miss handled by Johnson as a sad miss under stood man-child who had no other choice than to run to the Dark Side because of mean ole Master Luke that was seriously thinking about killing him in his sleep. Then broken he was handed over to Treverrow who it seemed to not want to be a "yes man" for the studio and he was dumped for being a "difficult guy to work with". So now he is back with Abrams who has to come up with a story in a short time using a broken character left by Johnson, the skeleton of Treverrow's story, and pressure from the studio to go in a certain direction.
The character creation of Kilo Ren was well thought out and could have really moved to something that would be different in Star Wars, the execution was sub par after TFA without a real plan of where to go next with him and seem based on "fan reaction". Rey on the other hand is "used the force" and that is pretty much it. At the end of TFA Rey's biggest appeal was who were her parents and that was pretty much it, by the end of TLJ that was squashed and by the time we got around to the Palpatine the reaction was more meh then mind blowing. Kylo Ren is not a Marry Sue just a good concept that was poorly used and studio influenced, Rey wasn't even a good concept.

[godisawesome]

I think they all the characters in the new trilogy sufficed form schizophrenic writing including the whole First Order. The "Tag your it" approach to writing allowed by Lucas Films created a strange Frankenstein's monster of a trilogy.
Kilo/Ben had the potential to be an awesome story of complete and total irredeemable turn to the dark side as Abrams set up. He was miss handled by Johnson as a sad miss under stood man-child who had no other choice than to run to the Dark Side because of mean ole Master Luke that was seriously thinking about killing him in his sleep. Then broken it handed out to Treverrow who it seemed to not want to be a "yes man" for the studio and he was dumped for being a "difficult guy to work with". So now he is back with Abrams who has to come up with a story in a short using a broken character left by Johnson, the skeleton of Treverrow's story, and pressure from the studio to go in a certain direction.
The character creation of Kilo Ren was well thought out and could have really moved to something that would be different in Star Wars, the execution was sub par after TFA without a real plan of where to go next with him. Rey on the other hand is "used the force" and that is pretty much it. At the end of TFA Rey's biggest appeal was who were her parents and that was pretty much it, by the end of TLJ that was squashed and by the time we got around to the Palpatine the reaction was more meh then mind blowing. Kylo Ren is not a Marry Sue just a good concept that was poorly used and studio influenced Rey wasn't even a good concept.

I actually will defend Rey’s characterization in TFA, with the caveat that it’s biggest problem is that A) I think her character concept while being created was abandoned somewhere between TFA’s shooting script being finalized and Rian Johnson formulating the meat of his story for TLJ, and B)TLJ simply dropping pretty much everything characterization wise for all the new characters due to its fascination with what it *thought Kylo was and its ideas for Luke.

I’ll deal with B first.

Rey does actually have an arc and characterization in TFA, far beyond her “uses the Force” elements. Her desire for family, denial of her abandonment, and the resulting issues with that combine with a pretty good survivalist/scavenger personality to make an engrossing character. Her “desire for a family” arc acts as both her driving force and her biggest flaw, since it causes her to freak out and reject the call of the Force in a manner that’s basically an more visceral version of Luke’s rejection in ANH - but unlike Luke finding out its too late, Rey’s rejection leads directly to her getting captured and tortured by Kylo, and indirectly contributes to Han being murdered and Finn being filleted, though not before she goes a cathartic reunion with Finn as her found family just in time for his injury to be especially painful for her.

Rey has a passionate personality, some real flaws, characterization in line with being a hardened survivor who’s experienced deprivation, both physical and emotional, and ends TFA with all the motivation needed to be the new hero, and to be tempted to the dark side out of anger and rage towards Kylo... which is all dropped by TLJ, because it’s all pretty inconvenient to a story that wants her to sympathize with Kylo, be exploited by him when he’s not even really trying to manipulate her, and wants to redefine her familial conundrum as being an identity crisis.

Because make no mistake: in TFA, Rey’s issues was not her wondering who her parents were, but instead feeling abandoned by them and wanting family so much it had her crippled by denial. TLJ is the one that decided that the only thing interesting about that conundrum was to have her hoping her parents were important, so it changed her characterization to achieve that... and then promptly declared her parents were nobody, so was she, and then kicked her out of the climax.

But all of that does need to deal with the likelihood that A likely centers in a concept that is equally as strong as Kylo’s, because it’s *is* a huge part of Kylo’s concept: Rey was almost certainly originally envisioned as a Skywalker/Solo, like Kylo, with her hook being that she was separated from them and de facto abandoned by fate while he was repeating Anakin’s arc.

Given Lucas’s comments about “Anakin’s grandkids” and the fact that we know that a female lead character was always a part of the story from his drafts through to production, and given them ex sheer unlikelihood of LFL and Disney signing off on a Skywalker family story that centers on just having their only new member be an irredeemable turd, pretty much guarantee that Rey was written in TFA under the idea that she was either Kylo’s sister or cousin... until Abrams talked himself into a mystery box for her parentage, and then Johnson talked himself into the inanity that was Rey “Random.”

The conceptual changes the character went through cut her legs out from under her, but honestly?

Even Rey Random being a bit overpowered wouldn’t have been bad if Rian Johnson actually honored the *actual characterization* Rey had in TFA... which I’d still say had more actual depth and resonance than Kylo’s arc, because Kylo, at his conceptual level, isn’t really meant for depth as much as function.

[WebLurker]

Rey really didn't "pull the same stunts" to be fair and the skill is on different level. Compare Luke's ability to use the Force in ANH to Rey's in the TFA. Luke does a little trick with a lightsaber with a remote with a blast shield down on a helmet after a small force lesson for Obi-Wan, Then with some encouragement from disembodied Obi-Wan Force voice he makes the shot that destroys the Death Star with out using his targeting computer. Rey resist a trained force user in interrogation, Masters the no look Jedi mind trick, and uses force pull all with just Han saying the Force is real as her introducing to the force.

When I said "same stunt," I was thinking about the fact that both of them used a skill neither of them has been trained to use. Whether Rey shoudn't've been able to do it then may or may not be questionable (I would point out that Star Wars has usually gone for emotion over logic and, in this case, Rey grabbing the saber was emotionally the right thing to do, irregardless of whether one thinks that it makes logical sense). As far as performing tricks untrained, Ezra Bridger did a lot of Force jumping before even knowing what the Force was in Rebels. Make of that what you will.

Luke's uses of the force were very small compared to what Rey did and over a longer period of time. Luke moves a lightsaber and a few small rocks with R2 thrown in, Rey moves tons of rocks all at once. When Luke did things in the force it felt earned, where Yoda said that he must first unlearn what he has learned. He had known about the Force for years, had a force ghost talk to him, went into training with a Jedi Master and still had trouble believing it all (which is why he failed) until he accepted his role with the Force. It felt like a lot of Rey's character development was missing with her Matrix "I know Kung Fu" way of learning the Force.

I guess to me, Luke never seemed to have that much more training (he becomes a full Knight with less then a month's schooling, yet you don't see people complaining about how it's unrealistic that he defeats a master-level Force user with decades of experience). However, IMHO, I don't think Rey grabbing the saber (or moving the rocks) is the completion of quite the same story arc he had in those movies. IMHO, Luke's character growth comes from his taking the Jedi path, Rey's comes from her dealing with her life.

[Moon Ronin]

I argued against Rey being a Mary Sue in TFA for one simple fact, she can be removed from the story and nothing really changes, it just removes Abrams's "mystery box". Take her out and use Poe in place of her interactions with Finn with a few miner changes the story does not change. A Mary Sue is the center of the story that saves every one with their super awesomeness, Luke is more of a marry sue in ANH than Rey was in in TFA. Johnson pushed her to Marry Sue level seemingly becasue he really didn't know what else to do with her. And he pushed Kylo to the "misunderstood" bad guy troupe that opened up for the "redemption" plot device pushed in ROS.

I guess to me, Luke never seemed to have that much more training (he becomes a full Knight with less then a month's schooling, yet you don't see people complaining about how it's unrealistic that he defeats a master-level Force user with decades of experience). However, IMHO, I don't think Rey grabbing the saber (or moving the rocks) is the completion of quite the same story arc he had in those movies. IMHO, Luke's character growth comes from his taking the Jedi path, Rey's comes from her dealing with her life.

I didn't see Luke at Jedi level until ROTJ even Han thought it was a "delusion of grandeur" when Chewy told him when Han woke from the carbonite freezing.

[godisawesome]

Maybe I’d more accurately say that Kylo may not be a *Gary Stu,* but that he’s a Blackhole Sue:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...n/BlackHoleSue

Weirdly, I’d also argue that Rey could be just as easily removed from TLJ as she was from TFA: I don’t think either’s actually that simple, but both films kind of offer reverse arguments fro why she matters to the story.

In TFA, you can’t remove her and have Finn get off SKB, or even have Finn volunteer for that particular mission (though I’d argue that he’d still be a member of the Resistance after watching the Hosnian System blow up and returning to Han). She also serves as the final beneficiary of TFA’s “Find Luke” plotline (initially, before Johnson took a literary dump on it), as the new champion selected by the Force.

TFA *is* pretty clearly an introductory arc for her, though, where Finn’s plot actually makes up the bulk of the story. Rey gets the climactic victory over Kylo and effectively “crowned” as the new lead, but she was more dependent on the next films for her development. Her arc in the film is very much about *her*, and not so much the Galactic situation until the end.

Which takes us to TLJ, where it’s almost the opposite situation. Rey is again responsible for the survival of other characters in the finale, but is actually banished from the climactic confrontation between Kylo and Luke. Similarly, her plot arc *does* make up the meat of the Force storyline (which is clearly where most of the dramatic focus is)... but her story is based on Luke and Kylo’s feud and Kylo’s advancement, instead of her own feud with Kylo.

Remove Rey from TFA, and her story is of course gone, but the climax also needs to be radically different. Remove Rey from TLJ, and the method for Luke and Kylo’s story happening is gone... but the climactic confrontation doesn’t actually change that much, and weirdly, Rey’s story doesn’t actually need anything from it - TLJ is kind of useless for Rey’s story, save for her gaining a crush on Ben Solo.

TROS is where I think you can say the plot is finally trying to make her the central figure all the way through, as you’d expect of a Mark Sue... but it’s doing the same thing with Kylo/Ben, and in fact sometimes feels like it’s deliberately trying to “fight fire with Fire” - leaving us with two OP characters whom the story revolves around in a pretty bad way.

...Its just that I think it’s telling that, on close observation, Rey is *also* revolving around Kylo/Ben, instead fo the other way around.

[Celestialbeyonder]

I guess to me, Luke never seemed to have that much more training (he becomes a full Knight with less then a month's schooling, yet you don't see people complaining about how it's unrealistic that he defeats a master-level Force user with decades of experience).

So you claim that Luke hadnt enough training to defeat Vader, but are completely fine with Rey who had even less training? Heres the difference between the two:

- Luke received a day/two of instructions from Jedi Master Obi Wan which unlocked his abilities
- He then could hone these abilities for 3 YEARS - while receiving the occasional tip from Force Ghost Obi Wan
- He then received a few weeks of training from Grand Master Yoda
- After that he had another YEAR in which to hone his abilities even further
- Burned Vader had only a fraction of his real power, was holding back (emotional conflict) and was taken by surprise by Lukes outburst

- Rey was told that the Force really existed and touched a lightsaber - that was enough to activate her powers - no one showed her anything
- She then received less than a day of training from Luke/of self training and perhaps a few hours during travel between different locations
- She then had ONE year to hone her abilities - by reading old books and beeing trained by Lea - that wasnt properly trained in the first place

See the difference? Now you might claim that all she displayed were low level skills and that Kylo was wounded during TFA - its a far stretch because he dispatched Fin quite easily - but one could perhaps accept it as an explanation.

However a few DAYS later she did equally well against the Praetorian guard as a healed Kylo - and her force pull was equal to his - and this is where all the argumentation defending Rey falls apart. If she is "low level skill" and has problems with the guards - then experienced healed Kylo should have slaughered them in seconds which he didnt - he had as much problems with them as she did. That means she is "high Level skill" after a few days - she is a Marey Sue.

If Rey is low Level skill - Kylos force pull should have been stronger, yet it wasnt - she is a Marey Sue.

Even if one would argue that she was vastly inferior to Kylo by TLJ - which is pretty much impossible - she closed the gap within a YEAR - he had like two DECADES of training - she is a Marey Sue.

[ChrisIII]

I think Rey at least had some knowledge of the galactic civil war, and the principal players-she of course lived on a planet that was pretty much full of it's wreckage (She lived in an AT-AT after all, and even some bits of her scavenger outfit are built from Stormtrooper armor). She's definitely familiar with the stories about Han Solo and the Falcon (although not until she's told it's the actual Falcon).


However, it kind of makes sense for the Jedi/Force to still be somewhat considered mythical. Luke never really re-started the order at all, and according to Disney's EU spent about a decade and a half pretty much being Jedi Indiana Jones until he decided to train anyone. The Rebellion of course used the force as a rallying cry (which kind of makes some sense as it did include some Jedi among it's early incarnations in REBELS for example) but didn't really have any formal stuff.


Although she did considered Luke and the Jedi a bit of a myth, she at least knew the story of Luke redeeming Vader/Anakin judging by her dialogue in TLJ. Unless Leia gave her a quick catch-up on everything before going to find Luke. (Worked for the Ewoks!)