*IF* Rey is a Mary Sue... then Ben Solo’s *definitely* a “Gary Stu.”

[Starter Set]

Kylo has a greater amount of literary issues and creator favoritism

I think that no one here can accuse me of having any affection for Kylo Ren but to call that sad piece of writing a Gary Stu? Now that's beyond my comprehension.

A Mary Sue is a character who fails almost at nothing, that everyone loves, who doesn't face any challenge she can't easily overcome. Long story short, Rey. (there is also the very important fact that a Mary Sue says a lot about her writter but i think that this aspect of a Mary Sue is less true outside of the book format)

Now, let's take a look at captain emo. He fails constantly, not even his parents think he's worth anything and there isn't a challenge he managed to overcome without any form of help.

The dude is a failure. Which would have been interesting if written in a better way but here you go...

If anything he is the anti-gary.

[Moon Ronin]

Anything he learned would've had to have been self-taught, given that he didn't come back until that movie.

Self-taught is training.... I don't have an issue with that. The biggest thing that the sequel trilogy has against it is a very narrow time line. Luke could spend months working on his skills between instalments so his ability can some what be explained. From the beginning of TFA to the end of TLJ is a matter of days so what Luke taught himself in months Rey taught her self in hours or less...

[godisawesome]

Rey has a LOT of convenient abilities
She is allways the center of attraction and treated as special
Everyone likes her and trusts her. (They tried to correct this in TROS but that was to late)
She never suffers a severe seatback or injuries

Kylo gets shot, is full of doubt, gets humiliated, needs help from Rey, no one likes him.

Who has more creator favorism?

Eh, I’m gonna have to call selective memory on that.

Rey has people like her because she actually has some virtues at least; Kylo has his parents die repeatedly for him even after he’s shown he’s unworthy of that sacrifice for him and more importantly has Rey favor him more than anyone else, including Han and Finn, even though they’re her found family. Han’s murder is only worth one question that she backs off after a deflection from him, she forgets about what Kylo did to her and Finn because that would impede her fawning over Kylo, in TLJ their personal arc ends with her leaving him alive and free to murder more people aboard the Sulremacy (and the Director didn’t even seem to think there should be a scene showing her making the decision), and in TROS she heals Kylo and leaves him totally free to keep on being a monster while Finn is still in sight of him, because she wants to hold Ben’s hand.

Also, Luke doesn’t really like her until after he’s dead... and when Rey attacked him, she was attacking him for “betraying” Ben and “creating Kylo.” .

I can agree with the idea that Rey may be blandly engaging and likable, and therefore to some people, it doesn’t really make sense... but at least the logic of an overall virtuous person being likable makes sense. The biggest issue with her “likability” to me is Leia hugging her instead of Chewie. Everything else has at least some pretty believable reason for he to be liked.

You know what doesn’t make sense? The Neo-Nazi School Shooter, Mass Murderer, Patricide and Mind Rapist being likable to his biggest victim... when the victim has no tie to him, and no good information on him. Han dying for his son? That makes sense. Leia dying for her son? Pushing it, since it rests on the idea that either Kylo has no free will and a can’t be held responsible for his actions, or that Leia is ignoring Kylo’s choices and personality and sacrificing herself as leader of the Resistance and teacher for Rey for her murderous son when she should know better. Rey giving him the time of day or any more chancesat all? Nope. That’s just the script treating him as likable and mesmerizing without any good reason.

Rey also got tortured and mentally violated twice, both times because she made a mistake - once because her denial and rejection of the call got her isolated and ragdolled by Kylo, the second time because she gift-wrapped herself for Kylo and he presented her to Snoke to be tortured. Rey also got killed once and twice had to play the damsel in distress, all exclusively for Kylo/Ben’s benefit - once when her “gift wrapping plan” depended on Kylo killing Snoke for his one ends and using her as bait, and once when she, again, died so that Ben could perform necromancy and kiss his Sleeping Beauty.

She had her found family killed and put in a coma in TFA, and got made into an overpowered Uber Driver with Chewie in TLJ’s climax because she wasn’t Kylo or Luke, right after Kylo negged her and told her she was nothing.

She needed Kylo’s help to survive both Snoke and Palpatine, with the latter making no sense until the script had Palpatine drop a bunch of exposition to justify why she can’t just kill him or fight him *just so Ben can be her savior,* and did get twice ragdolled by Kylo in TFA.

TFA is a film I’d be willing to argue about TFA having her fit the Mary Sue tropes harder than the others in terms of impact on the story, while Kylo doesn’t get any Sue treatments there. But that’s the film that made $2 Billion and was generally acclaimed and had the best word of mouth. It’s TLJ and TROS, where her power level increases but her story impact gives way to Kylo slowly but surely, that my argument begins to coalesce into an actual fan fiction-level of bad.

[Moon Ronin]

I think one thing is that Rey's losses are very short lived and seem to be immediately caped off with her gaining a victory that really doesn't allow for the low point to set in. The only ones that really gets opportunity is when Finn is hurt and Han dies. When she sees Finn again at the end of TLJ and they hug it feels some what out because she hasn't seemed to even thank of Finn during the entire movie it was way too prolonged and Han gets one line of dialogue with Kylo Ren as a blow of for Rey's "resolution".

[Punisher007]

TLJ was where the big failure with Rey was. The second film is where the big failures tend to happen. Both Luke and Anakin, and even the supporting heroes like Han, Leia, Obi Wan, Padme, etc all fail and need bailed out big time in ESB and AOTC. And every hero in TLJ has this happen to them as well EXCEPT Rey. And unlike Luke and Anakin, Rey still gets to be the big hero in the end as well. This is part of where the Mary Sue argument comes in. Even her "flaws" are mostly showing that she's too nice and too moral, which aren't all that impressive as flaws. Meanwhile the movie utterly fails to make Kylo a believable new big bad.

Luke even in ROTJ doesn't come across as as powerful as TLJ Rey is, nor does Anakin in ROTS. And that's after years of study. Rey has, between TFA and TROS, a year of actual training maximum.

TROS, pulling uber-Force powers that we've never seen before didn't help, nor did having Rey kill Sheev by herself.

[WebLurker]

I don't think it's just her being overpowered that people label her as such. I think it also has to do with the story tearing Luke down to build Rey up. Basically saying that she's better then Luke and people who like the old stories of Luke in particular legends Luke that they're dumb for liking the old character. When you tear down an old character to build up a new one. It really annoys fans of the older character.

When was Luke torn down for Rey? While is going into exile was the wrong decision and he needs to learn that, he's proven right when it came to Kylo Ren, something Rey had to learn the hard way.

This isn't the first time something like this has happened in fiction. Look at Green Lantern and the story Emerald Knight. From what I've heard people who liked Hal Jordan were really ticked off.

You mean "HEAT" and all that? A bit before my time and probably not the best analogy for me, given that I want Jessica Cruz to take over a main Green Lantern.

With this "explanation" one can excuse pretty much every flaw a character/movie has. But one should then not complain that people see the character as a Marey Sue and the movie as bad.

You lost me.

Self-taught is training.... I don't have an issue with that. The biggest thing that the sequel trilogy has against it is a very narrow time line. Luke could spend months working on his skills between instalments so his ability can some what be explained. From the beginning of TFA to the end of TLJ is a matter of days so what Luke taught himself in months Rey taught her self in hours or less...

Can't say that I really agree that the problem is as bad as that, but I think I understand where you're coming from.

[godisawesome]

I think one thing is that Rey's losses are very short lived and seem to be immediately caped off with her gaining a victory that really doesn't allow for the low point to set in. The only ones that really gets opportunity is when Finn is hurt and Han dies. When she sees Finn again at the end of TLJ and they hug it feels some what out because she hasn't seemed to even thank of Finn during the entire movie it was way too prolonged and Han gets one line of dialogue with Kylo Ren as a blow of for Rey's "resolution".

The weird thing is if you compare TFA’s ending to TLJ’s, it’s the first film that has a more suspenseful, tension filled, and somewhat melancholy and somber ending you’d expect from a Part II Star Wars film. Especially for the new heroes: Rey is heartbroken at Han’s death and Finn’s maiming, which is kind of her fault a little bit, and seems overwhelmed and begging when she holds the lightsaber out to Luke.

...Then TLJ makes its opening all about defusing those suspenseful elements, trying to certify that the most important thing about Han’s death isn’t the tragedy of him being gone, or the loved ones he left behind, but Kylo not being as Uber evil and powerful a she hoped, sticking Finn in a funny costume to laugh at him for his injuries while pontificating on the tragedy Kylo’s (moves) facial scar, before making the ending with Luke a joke.

Seriously though, consider this: Johnson felt that Kylo getting his face cut by Rey was worth a slow, hauntingly orchestrated scene Snoke treats as his most grievous wound, and even gave him another scene getting it tended to, and all that after he moved it to be less disfiguring... but wastes not a single line of dialogue on Finn being maimed, deflects on Kylo’s part in Han’s death, and not only has Rey fail to bring up what he did to her, but has her volunteer to have it replicated at the hands of his boss after he hands her over for it.

TLJ was where the big failure with Rey was. The second film is where the big failures tend to happen. Both Luke and Anakin, and even the supporting heroes like Han, Leia, Obi Wan, Padme, etc all fail and need bailed out big time in ESB and AOTC. And every hero in TLJ has this happen to them as well EXCEPT Rey. And unlike Luke and Anakin, Rey still gets to be the big hero in the end as well. This is part of where the Mary Sue argument comes in. Even her "flaws" are mostly showing that she's too nice and too moral, which aren't all that impressive as flaws. Meanwhile the movie utterly fails to make Kylo a believable new big bad.

Luke even in ROTJ doesn't come across as as powerful as TLJ Rey is, nor does Anakin in ROTS. And that's after years of study. Rey has, between TFA and TROS, a year of actual training maximum.

TROS, pulling uber-Force powers that we've never seen before didn't help, nor did having Rey kill Sheev by herself.

The thing to me is that I think Johnson thought Rey failing to redeem Kylo was supposed to be the crushing failure she experiences; that we’re supposed to see her sad disappointment before closing the door on him as something comparable to Luke dying having spent his last years as a coward, Finn, Poe, Holdo, and Leia inadvertently helping to kill off 98% of the Resistance, Luke and Anakin losing hands in their earlier Part II films.

And weirdly, the only person she’s really “too nice and too moral” to is Kylo; she actually just flat out attacks Luke on Kylo’s behalf... and that’s really the only two people she ever really interacts with. Even when talks to Chewbacca, there’s this glaring bit where the audience realizes that Chewie is apparently 100% on board with “Operation Make Rey a Barbie Doll for Kylo”, even though he totally shot Kylo in the stomach with his bow caster only a few days ago.

Meanwhile, yeah, Kylo’s elevation to big bad utterly fails, but not because of concept - it’s whole down to execution... and priorities. Because Rian Johnson looks at Kylo, and felt he was already perfect for being both a de facto male lead *above* Finn, more worthy of the climax with Luke than Rey, and already evolved enough to be the main villain.

Kylo in TLJ is Rian Johnson idea of a Byronic Anti-Hero: a not neccessarily heroic protagonist who’s usually self-destructive, moody, and who’s supposed to be compellingly complex and mesmerizingly consumed by inner turmoil with a personal code that’s moderately admirable. And thanks exactly how Johnson treats him... except his favoritism ends up making him into Gary Stue Byronic Anti-Hero - his inner turmoil, angst, and vaguely nihilistic personal philosophy are supposed to justify the way Luke is so consumed by failing him (and not, say, all the dead students) and Rey’s sudden obsession with him, and it r asked above pretty much everyone else’s actual suffering.

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

When was Luke torn down for Rey? While is going into exile was the wrong decision and he needs to learn that, he's proven right when it came to Kylo Ren, something Rey had to learn the hard way.



You mean "HEAT" and all that? A bit before my time and probably not the best analogy for me, given that I want Jessica Cruz to take over a main Green Lantern.

The Green Lantern thing was just the best example I could think of. I'm sure given the amounts of movies and stories over the year there are probably other examples. As far as when Luke was torn down. I'm refering to the tent scene. I feel like this could have worked better if it was really Kylo's choice to turn against Luke. As it stands he was really just pushed into being Kylo.

It may have worked better if we saw Rey having the same kind of debate. Especially since she would have more reason to consider killing him. Though I'm not sure that fixes the issue. I think one of my many problems of Luke's arc is that I feel like it tears him down to make Rey look better by comparison.

[godisawesome]

The Green Lantern thing was just the best example I could think of. I'm sure given the amounts of movies and stories over the year there are probably other examples. As far as when Luke was torn down. I'm refering to the tent scene. I feel like this could have worked better if it was really Kylo's choice to turn against Luke. As it stands he was really just pushed into being Kylo.

It may have worked better if we saw Rey having the same kind of debate. Especially since she would have more reason to consider killing him. Though I'm not sure that fixes the issue. I think one of my many problems of Luke's arc is that I feel like it tears him down to make Rey look better by comparison.

Ben *did* choose to become Kylo, both in TLJ’s script (where he proceeds to murder a bunch of uninvolved students for daring to be in the same time zone as him and Luke) and in Soule’s white-washing of the event in the comic (where his egomaniacal response to everyone being killed is to attack the their students when they question him, then go off and join a dark side biker gang, and when his last remaining friend is murdered by the biker leader, proceeded to murder the only remaining member while asking them why they want to go on living.)

Ben’s a little $#!+ stain who chose to become a bigger $#!+ stain. He was NOT “pushed” into being Kylo.

*That’s* tearing Luke down to make a new character look better in comparison. TLJ tried to throw Luke under the bus for Kylo being “created”, and had Rey attack Like on behalf of Kylo.

TROS tried to back the bus up a bit and lay some good old-fashioned Palpatine blacktop under the wheels, to try and say that poor Widdle Benny Bunny was brainwashed by Palpatine... then Soule and LFL still went and avoided actually showing why we’re supposed to see that as brainwashing, and not a morally and mentally weak idiot being led to mass murdering by last minute plot device.

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

Ben *did* choose to become Kylo, both in TLJ’s script (where he proceeds to murder a bunch of uninvolved students for daring to be in the same time zone as him and Luke) and in Soule’s white-washing of the event in the comic (where his egomaniacal response to everyone being killed is to attack the their students when they question him, then go off and join a dark side biker gang, and when his last remaining friend is murdered by the biker leader, proceeded to murder the only remaining member while asking them why they want to go on living.)

Ben’s a little $#!+ stain who chose to become a bigger $#!+ stain. He was NOT “pushed” into being Kylo.

*That’s* tearing Luke down to make a new character look better in comparison. TLJ tried to throw Luke under the bus for Kylo being “created”, and had Rey attack Like on behalf of Kylo.

TROS tried to back the bus up a bit and lay some good old-fashioned Palpatine blacktop under the wheels, to try and say that poor Widdle Benny Bunny was brainwashed by Palpatine... then Soule and LFL still went and avoided actually showing why we’re supposed to see that as brainwashing, and not a morally and mentally weak idiot being led to mass murdering by last minute plot device.

My mistake on the comic. From the descriptions I had heard they set it up that he was framed for the whole temple massacre. my bad.

[godisawesome]

My mistake on the comic. From the descriptions I had heard they set it up that he was framed for the whole temple massacre. my bad.

Well, for the record, my knowledge of it is based off snippets of the comic Ben Solo fans were posting on another forum, along with some synopses as well. The Temple gets blown up by Snoke/Palpatine somehow, and when he attacks the students it’s supposed to be portrayed as an escalation of an argument, and he doesn’t kill any of them yet... it’s just that his dialogue seems exceptionally self-centered and filled with his usual over-inflated false feeling of persecution (he even thinks he somehow destroyed the school somehow for some reason, apparently). The onyl student he kills is the last one, and that’s after he kills the old leader of the KoR for killing the only student who supposedly had a chance of reaching out to him...

...But since I know he then murders the last apprentice himself, and since I know the comic only shows Snoke/Palpatine talking to him mentally, and doesn’t actually go all in on gaslighting and mental torture by Palpatine, I still don’t give a damn how he feels, or what he feels he was “forced” to do... because as far as I can tell, he still wasn’t forced to do a damn thing.

[WebLurker]

The Green Lantern thing was just the best example I could think of. I'm sure given the amounts of movies and stories over the year there are probably other examples.

Probably.

As far as when Luke was torn down. I'm refering to the tent scene. I feel like this could have worked better if it was really Kylo's choice to turn against Luke. As it stands he was really just pushed into being Kylo.

It may have worked better if we saw Rey having the same kind of debate. Especially since she would have more reason to consider killing him. Though I'm not sure that fixes the issue. I think one of my many problems of Luke's arc is that I feel like it tears him down to make Rey look better by comparison.

I see. I guess I liked seeing flawed Luke after years of tie-ins that pushed a flawless one.

[Blind Wedjat]

Almost no one in this thread understands how to use the term "Mary Sue" correctly. In fact, almost no one on the internet these days knows how to. For far too long has "Overpowered/Incredibly Capable" be used interchangeably with "Mary Sue" and it's just not the correct way to use that term.

I can't even stand Rey as a character (the only thing I like about her is Ridley's decent performance) and she's been called this for years, even though it doesn't make much sense. I will admit that TROS is when she got really close to that, but she still isn't there yet. There are a very specific set of conditions that make a character that way.

[WebLurker]

Almost no one in this thread understands how to use the term "Mary Sue" correctly. In fact, almost no one on the internet these days knows how to. For far too long has "Overpowered/Incredibly Capable" be used interchangeably with "Mary Sue" and it's just not the correct way to use that term.

I can't even stand Rey as a character (the only thing I like about her is Ridley's decent performance) and she's been called this for years, even though it doesn't make much sense. I will admit that TROS is when she got really close to that, but she still isn't there yet. There are a very specific set of conditions that make a character that way.

For reference, what do you think is the criteria and/or any examples that we could refer to?

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

Probably.



I see. I guess I liked seeing flawed Luke after years of tie-ins that pushed a flawless one.

I never understood the claims of Legends Luke being flawless. Let's be honest that's what you're refering too. Legends Luke made plenty of mistakes. He was hardly flawless.