*IF* Rey is a Mary Sue... then Ben Solo’s *definitely* a “Gary Stu.”

[Starter Set]

That "jedi are a myth" thing is ridiculous.

There is what? Not even 20 years before the rise of the empire and a new hope? That much more between the end of the OT and the start of sequels? So 40 something years since the last time the order was operational?

Pretty short time to forgot a galaxy wide known organization, who had a giant ass temple right in freaking Coruscant and settled disputes all over the republic.

40 years that's nothing, that was the 80's for us lol.

[WebLurker]

I didn't see Luke at Jedi level until ROTJ even Han thought it was a "delusion of grandeur" when Chewy told him when Han woke from the carbonite freezing.

Well, Han's comment was more disbelief then anything else (he didn't know what Luke had been up to after Hoth), Luke's far more competent then he was in ESB, Yoda tells him he's completely trained (except for the final test of facing Vader again), and when facing Vader, he's able to disarm him (albeit on a dark side boost). That's seems Knight-level to me.

So you claim that Luke hadnt enough training to defeat Vader, but are completely fine with Rey who had even less training?

No, I just don't understand why some people don't have a problem with one, but do with the other when the basis of the complaint is "not enough training," "using Force skills untrained that we've already seen used untrained" and the like. Didn't I say that?

[Moon Ronin]

That "jedi are a myth" thing is ridiculous.

There is what? Not even 20 years before the rise of the empire and a new hope? That much more between the end of the OT and the start of sequels? So 40 something years since the last time the order was operational?

Pretty short time to forgot a galaxy wide known organization, who had a giant ass temple right in freaking Coruscant and settled disputes all over the republic.

40 years that's nothing, that was the 80's for us lol.

Han had his doubts that the Force was real in a new hope while actually being alive during the time of the Cone Wars. For a girl that only has memories of living on one planet and only having maybe a few "stories" of what goes on in the rest of the galaxy the idea for her thinking that the Jedi are a myth is not that far fetched.

Well, Han's comment was more disbelief then anything else (he didn't know what Luke had been up to after Hoth), Luke's far more competent then he was in ESB, Yoda tells him he's completely trained (except for the final test of facing Vader again), and when facing Vader, he's able to disarm him (albeit on a dark side boost). That's seems Knight-level to me.

When Luke went to face Vader in ESB Yoda tells him that he isn't ready yet and his training is not complete, When Luke talks to Yoda again in ROTJ he is told that his training is complete that would seem that he learned more between the two movies and this is years after his introduction to the Force. Even in the name of the movie Return of the JEDI is it some what implied that now Luke has reach Jedi level that I don't think he reached before.

No, I just don't understand why some people don't have a problem with one, but do with the other when the basis of the complaint is "not enough training," "using Force skills untrained that we've already seen used untrained" and the like. Didn't I say that?

I think it is more that it felt like Luke has a progression when it came to his use of the force. Luke is seen failing and struggling with his use of the Force where it feels in the end he has earned the ability, Rey on the other hand it feels as if she is given it.

[Vegeta]

The point is, it's somehow okay for Luke to learn a skill all on his own, but when Rey pulls the same stunt in TFA with the same skill, it's somehow wrong. I find that very interesting, esp. since, as I've pointed out again and again, a lot of this stuff is in line with what's come before.

And if Luke was using Force pulls and mind tricks at the start of "A New Hope" this would be an apt comparison. No one questions when Obi-Wan uses the Force in his first appearance because it is understood that the training occurred during the passage of time off-screen. Luke only used the Force successfully against the Empire at the very climax of the first film (and with much coaxing by the disembodied voice of his mentor figure.)

Just think how much more dramatic the climax of "The Force Awakens" would have been if Rey's first use of the Force occurred during the climatic battle with Kylo Ren. We the viewers see the lightsaber slowly begin to twitch in the snow, and our minds begin to race. Is Finn the next Jedi? He IS the character on the movie poster shown wielding a saber! Or is this the dramatic reappearance of Luke Skywalker into the franchise? Heck, maybe it is even Leia!? Holy crap! It's the scavenger girl!?!?!?! All the drama and tension that scene could have held was undercut by Rey's earlier successful use of several Force abilities prior.

As far as performing tricks untrained, Ezra Bridger did a lot of Force jumping before even knowing what the Force was in Rebels. Make of that what you will.

Most Star Wars fans felt "Rebels" was an unworthy successor to "the Clone Wars" and Ezra Bridger is usually cited as one of the main problems with that series. If anything, Ezra is simply another example that Disney simply doesn't understand how to write a Force using protagonist. Besides, one poorly developed main character doesn't excuse another. Fans can dislike BOTH! (On a sidenote, imo, Hera Syndulla of "Rebels" IS a well developed character, she is a talented pilot and strong leader, but she defers to other characters such as Sabine and Kanan when the situation is outside her wheelhouse. she also screws up now and then and ultimately her priority to the cause costs her chance to confess her true feelings to Kanan.) In the Mandalorian, "Baby Yoda" only really gets a pass because the character is the Macguffin of the series, not the protagonist. He is ultimately no different than the Infinity Stones of the Avengers films. An object of power to possess (And occasionally a deus ex machina) but it is the Mando's journey we are following.

I guess to me, Luke never seemed to have that much more training (he becomes a full Knight with less then a month's schooling, yet you don't see people complaining about how it's unrealistic that he defeats a master-level Force user with decades of experience).

He doesn't truly defeat a master level Force user though. In ESB he gets his butt kicked by a clearly toying with him Darth Vader, and in RotJ, he only is able to chop off Vader's hand by momentarily giving into the Dark Side. After that, he chooses to die at the hands of Palpatine rather than fight back and kill him. Had Vader not intervened, the Emperor would have succeeded. Too bad Luke didn't know about Palpatine's weakness to the double lightsaber technique!

When Luke went to face Vader in ESB Yoda tells him that he isn't ready yet and his training is not complete, When Luke talks to Yoda again in ROTJ he is told that his training is complete that would seem that he learned more between the two movies and this is years after his introduction to the Force. Even in the name of the movie Return of the JEDI is it some what implied that now Luke has reach Jedi level that I don't think he reached before.

More or less, of course when Luke claims he is a Jedi, Yoda tells him "not yet" and that first he must confront Vader. So confronting Vader was sort of the final test for his promotion. But yes, by the end of the film the Jedi have "returned."

[Celestialbeyonder]

That "jedi are a myth" thing is ridiculous.

There is what? Not even 20 years before the rise of the empire and a new hope? That much more between the end of the OT and the start of sequels? So 40 something years since the last time the order was operational?

Pretty short time to forgot a galaxy wide known organization, who had a giant ass temple right in freaking Coruscant and settled disputes all over the republic.

40 years that's nothing, that was the 80's for us lol.

It might seem so to us who saw the main protagonists during the Prequels and the Clone Wars - but if looked at it from the In-Universe perspective, its not that far-fetched. There were perhaps 10 000 Masters/Knights/Padawans/Younglings for a Republic of a Million Worlds. 99%+ of all Planets in the Galaxy were either never visited by a Jedi, or at least not during the decades before the Clone Wars.

Even if a Jedi visited a Planet because of some dispute - he/she interacted with just a few dozen/hundred people. So 99%+ of all people in the Galaxy never saw a Jedi in their life. The display of their abilities, was an even rarer occasion.

Hell even the ordinary citizens of Coruscant who lived in the vicinity of the Jedi Temple, probably never saw a Jedi. They saw the temple every day when driving to work, but since acces to the temple was tighly restricted, they never got a glimps of what was going on inside. Perhaps they saw a hooded figure from time to time , but that was it.

And their abilities? They were good martial artists - but their abilities are greatly inflated - dont believe everything they tell you. "The Force" pffffff.

During the Clone Wars they were mostly surrounded by Clones, after Order 66 only about 200 Jedi remained, these went into hiding. Then there was a massive disinformation campaign by the Empire that went on for two decades.

Take Communist crimes in the USSR for example - These are among the greatest atrocities in the history of mankind - yet for many decades they were unknown because information about them was supressed. And this is just one Planet.

[Celestialbeyonder]

No, I just don't understand why some people don't have a problem with one, but do with the other when the basis of the complaint is "not enough training,"

Luke Training: 4 years
Rey "Training" 1 year

However she was pretty close to Kylo Ren after just 1 WEEK without much training - evident by the fact that Kylo had as much Problems with the Praetorian Guard as she had.

[Celestialbeyonder]

In the Mandalorian, "Baby Yoda" only really gets a pass because the character is the Macguffin of the series, not the protagonist.

Baby Yoda is nearly 3x older than Rey. And after lifting that one beast he looses conciousnes for half a day because the strain was just to much for him. Rey lifting 50 Tons of rocks on the other hand, doesnt exhaust her at all.....

[Moon Ronin]

Baby Yoda is nearly 3x older than Rey. And after lifting that one beast he looses conciousnes for half a day because the strain was just to much for him. Rey lifting 50 Tons of rocks on the other hand, doesnt exhaust her at all.....

I did like the idea of the force having a "price" in the Mandalorian for The Child. When Luke tried to lift the X-Wing from the swamp he was out of breath. Yoda then does the unlearn what you have learned speech that it comes from your mind and not your muscle (crude matter). A lesson that Rey apparently didn't have to learn

[Zero Hunter]

That "jedi are a myth" thing is ridiculous.

There is what? Not even 20 years before the rise of the empire and a new hope? That much more between the end of the OT and the start of sequels? So 40 something years since the last time the order was operational?

Pretty short time to forgot a galaxy wide known organization, who had a giant ass temple right in freaking Coruscant and settled disputes all over the republic.

40 years that's nothing, that was the 80's for us lol.

Like other have said most people probably never saw a jedi in real life or at all. They were sort of legendary even when they were around because there were so few spread out all over the galaxy. When you add in that Palpatine from day one of his take over started downplaying them and labeling them as traitors it is not hard to imagine that he did everything he could to scour every trace of them from the new feeds and downplaying their presence. He literally erased them from history so that by the time of A New Hope most people who had never actually seen a Jedi in person would think they were nothing but a propaganda tool created by people trying to overthrow the old Republic.

[ChrisIII]

Yeah, the Empire was pretty big on propaganda as well.

There's an interesting thing that Disney's done-although he still does plenty behind the scenes, Disney's EU has sort of rewritten Palpatine as more of a recluse, somewhat in keeping with old intro to the the first Star Wars novel. Public appearances are limited, and his senate stuff is manipulated to show the middle-aged, non-messed up Chancellor Palpatine instead of the post-Windu scary Emperor version. (This is seen mainly in Rebels, but also a few other sources-Battlefront for example has an Imperial academy with posters of Palpatine without blemishes). I think REBELS did this as well in it's finale when Palpatine met Ezra, although it also fits well with the whole "Angel of light=Satan" thing they were probably going for.

[godisawesome]

I think a big question in this debate right now with Rey becomes this: are we only judging her as a Mary Sue based off her being overpowered?

Because I don’t think that, in and of itself, is quite enough to get a Mary Sue label. Lots of characters are overpowered, and even being overpowered is far more reliant on whether or not it negatively impacts the narrative of the film (one of the reason I *do* defend Rey in arguments about TFA is because I think they did their work to make her eventual victory still fit an arc thanks to Kylo breaking down and being self-destructive while she’s rising.)

Mary Sues require more than just being overpowered. And that’s where my argument comes in; Rey has a lot of overpowered issues, but Kylo has a greater amount of literary issues and creator favoritism.

[WebLurker]

When Luke went to face Vader in ESB Yoda tells him that he isn't ready yet and his training is not complete, When Luke talks to Yoda again in ROTJ he is told that his training is complete that would seem that he learned more between the two movies and this is years after his introduction to the Force. Even in the name of the movie Return of the JEDI is it some what implied that now Luke has reach Jedi level that I don't think he reached before.

Anything he learned would've had to have been self-taught, given that he didn't come back until that movie.

I think it is more that it felt like Luke has a progression when it came to his use of the force. Luke is seen failing and struggling with his use of the Force where it feels in the end he has earned the ability, Rey on the other hand it feels as if she is given it.

Hmm.

And if Luke was using Force pulls and mind tricks at the start of "A New Hope" this would be an apt comparison. No one questions when Obi-Wan uses the Force in his first appearance because it is understood that the training occurred during the passage of time off-screen. Luke only used the Force successfully against the Empire at the very climax of the first film (and with much coaxing by the disembodied voice of his mentor figure.)

Just think how much more dramatic the climax of "The Force Awakens" would have been if Rey's first use of the Force occurred during the climatic battle with Kylo Ren. We the viewers see the lightsaber slowly begin to twitch in the snow, and our minds begin to race. Is Finn the next Jedi? He IS the character on the movie poster shown wielding a saber! Or is this the dramatic reappearance of Luke Skywalker into the franchise? Heck, maybe it is even Leia!? Holy crap! It's the scavenger girl!?!?!?! All the drama and tension that scene could have held was undercut by Rey's earlier successful use of several Force abilities prior.

Thought the scene of her actually grabbing it was pretty dramatic and did pay off her story arc in that movie.

Most Star Wars fans felt "Rebels" was an unworthy successor to "the Clone Wars" and Ezra Bridger is usually cited as one of the main problems with that series. If anything, Ezra is simply another example that Disney simply doesn't understand how to write a Force using protagonist. Besides, one poorly developed main character doesn't excuse another. Fans can dislike BOTH! (On a sidenote, imo, Hera Syndulla of "Rebels" IS a well developed character, she is a talented pilot and strong leader, but she defers to other characters such as Sabine and Kanan when the situation is outside her wheelhouse. she also screws up now and then and ultimately her priority to the cause costs her chance to confess her true feelings to Kanan.) In the Mandalorian, "Baby Yoda" only really gets a pass because the character is the Macguffin of the series, not the protagonist. He is ultimately no different than the Infinity Stones of the Avengers films. An object of power to possess (And occasionally a deus ex machina) but it is the Mando's journey we are following.

Having seen most of both, I think it's safe to say that Rebels was the better show -- but I did like it focusing on one cast over the anthology with recurring characters, but each approach is commendable in its own way. (The shows were produced by the same teams, though.) As far as the bolded goes, I think there's a difference between liking something and accepting the "factuality" of it; irregardless of whether you think Ezra was a Force user done "right," that still doesn't chance the facts that his progression level is "legitimate."

He doesn't truly defeat a master level Force user though. In ESB he gets his butt kicked by a clearly toying with him Darth Vader, and in RotJ, he only is able to chop off Vader's hand by momentarily giving into the Dark Side. After that, he chooses to die at the hands of Palpatine rather than fight back and kill him. Had Vader not intervened, the Emperor would have succeeded. Too bad Luke didn't know about Palpatine's weakness to the double lightsaber technique!

Neither did Rey.

Luke Training: 4 years
Rey "Training" 1 year

No, Luke had less then four years of training (three years with only one lesson and self-teaching -- per ANH, ESB, and tie-ins -- and far, far less then one year of formal teaching and whatever more he self-taught in another year -- per ROTJ and tie-ins).

And where is this Rey was "trained" business coming from? Her year of training was under Leia, which the movie specifically said had completed all her training, she just didn't take the title ("It was the last night of our training. Leia told me that she had sensed the death of her son at the end of her Jedi path. She surrendered her saber to me, and said that one day it would be picked up again by someone who would finish her journey." my emphasis). So, chew on it if you want, but Rey canonically had more then twice the amount of instructed training Luke did before he became a Jedi Knight by the end of their trilogies.

However she was pretty close to Kylo Ren after just 1 WEEK without much training - evident by the fact that Kylo had as much Problems with the Praetorian Guard as she had.

Don't the Heroes always prevail over the faceless mooks in the movies?

I think a big question in this debate right now with Rey becomes this: are we only judging her as a Mary Sue based off her being overpowered?

Because I don’t think that, in and of itself, is quite enough to get a Mary Sue label. Lots of characters are overpowered, and even being overpowered is far more reliant on whether or not it negatively impacts the narrative of the film (one of the reason I *do* defend Rey in arguments about TFA is because I think they did their work to make her eventual victory still fit an arc thanks to Kylo breaking down and being self-destructive while she’s rising.)

Mary Sues require more than just being overpowered. And that’s where my argument comes in; Rey has a lot of overpowered issues, but Kylo has a greater amount of literary issues and creator favoritism.

Seconded; most superheroes would be Mary Sues by the metric being applies to Rey here.

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

Anything he learned would've had to have been self-taught, given that he didn't come back until that movie.



Hmm.



Thought the scene of her actually grabbing it was pretty dramatic and did pay off her story arc in that movie.



Having seen most of both, I think it's safe to say that Rebels was the better show -- but I did like it focusing on one cast over the anthology with recurring characters, but each approach is commendable in its own way. (The shows were produced by the same teams, though.) As far as the bolded goes, I think there's a difference between liking something and accepting the "factuality" of it; irregardless of whether you think Ezra was a Force user done "right," that still doesn't chance the facts that his progression level is "legitimate."



Neither did Rey.



No, Luke had less then four years of training (three years with only one lesson and self-teaching -- per ANH, ESB, and tie-ins -- and far, far less then one year of formal teaching and whatever more he self-taught in another year -- per ROTJ and tie-ins).

And where is this Rey was "trained" business coming from? Her year of training was under Leia, which the movie specifically said had completed all her training, she just didn't take the title ("It was the last night of our training. Leia told me that she had sensed the death of her son at the end of her Jedi path. She surrendered her saber to me, and said that one day it would be picked up again by someone who would finish her journey." my emphasis). So, chew on it if you want, but Rey canonically had more then twice the amount of instructed training Luke did before he became a Jedi Knight by the end of their trilogies.



Don't the Heroes always prevail over the faceless mooks in the movies?



Seconded; most superheroes would be Mary Sues by the metric being applies to Rey here.

I don't think it's just her being overpowered that people label her as such. I think it also has to do with the story tearing Luke down to build Rey up. Basically saying that she's better then Luke and people who like the old stories of Luke in particular legends Luke that they're dumb for liking the old character. When you tear down an old character to build up a new one. It really annoys fans of the older character.

This isn't the first time something like this has happened in fiction. Look at Green Lantern and the story Emerald Knight. From what I've heard people who liked Hal Jordan were really ticked off.

[Celestialbeyonder]

Don't the Heroes always prevail over the faceless mooks in the movies?

With this "explanation" one can excuse pretty much every flaw a character/movie has. But one should then not complain that people see the character as a Marey Sue and the movie as bad.

[Celestialbeyonder]

Mary Sues require more than just being overpowered. And that’s where my argument comes in; Rey has a lot of overpowered issues, but Kylo has a greater amount of literary issues and creator favoritism.

Rey has a LOT of convenient abilities
She is allways the center of attraction and treated as special
Everyone likes her and trusts her. (They tried to correct this in TROS but that was to late)
She never suffers a severe seatback or injuries

Kylo gets shot, is full of doubt, gets humiliated, needs help from Rey, no one likes him.

Who has more creator favorism?