*IF* Rey is a Mary Sue... then Ben Solo’s *definitely* a “Gary Stu.”

[Celestialbeyonder]

Anakin Skywalker was the Chosen One with a higher Midi-Chlorian count than Yoda. After 13 years of training he was still weaker than Yoda.
Luka Skywalker was the son of the Chosen One - after 4 years of training he was still weaker than the Emperor.
Ben Solo was the grandson of the Chosen One - after two decades of training with Luke Skywalker and Snoke, he was still weaker than Snoke who in turn was weaker than Palpatine.

Rey Palpatine was the granddaughter of Palpatine. Some 2 days after she found out that the Force existed, she managed to best a wounded Ben Solo. A week later, after receiving 2 days of "training" from Luke Skywalker, she was equal or superior to a healed ben Solo. One year later, she was equal or stronger than Palpatine.

Rey is a Mary Sue. Ben isnt a Gary Stu because he had - and needed - training to get to where he was.

[Vegeta]

Yeah, Ben had to train for him to pull off any of the stunts Rey did with absolute zero guidance (All she had at most was Han Solo's confirmation that the Force "was true, all of it." ) And he still got his butt handed to him in several scenes (as Kylo Ren, obviously in "Ben Solo mode" he sliced through those silly "Knights of Ren" like they were nothing.)

I think Ben Solo is more of akin what TV Tropes refers to as "The Woobie." https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWoobie
Somewhere between a "jerkass woobie" and the "Woobie, Destroyed of Worlds" at least in terms of the Reylo phenomenon as it can overlap with the "all girls want bad boys" trope.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p.../JerkassWoobie

[Celestialbeyonder]

Marey Sue defenders claim that she was strong in the Force and that Anakin used the Force as a kid so its not that unbelievable. To this I say simply no. It doesnt matter how large your potential is, you still have to train to utilize this potential and hone the abilities. In order to understand how ridiculous her progress is, we can use the following scale of Force levels:

Level 0 - Not able to use the Force at all
Level 1 - Able to use the Force subconciously and in a very limited way (Anakin in Episode 1/Darth Bane before he had any training)
Level 2-4 Padawan Level
Level 5-7 Jedi Knight Level
Level 8-10 Jedi Master Level

Anakin was the Chosen One, yet he needed 13 YEARS to get from Level 1 to Level 8
Luke was the son of the Chosen One, yet he needed 4 YEARS to get from Level 0 to Level 6/7 (he defeated Vader only through a temporary rage boost)
Ben was the grandson of the Chosen One, he needed around 20 YEARS to get from Level 0/1 to Level 7/8

Rey was the granddaughter of Palpatine, she managed to get from Level 0 to Level 7/8 within TWO WEEKS and just one single year to reach Level 9/10 - close to Palpatine.
Apparently Palpi genes are a dozen times better/more efficent than beeing the Chosen One…… its simply ridiculous.

[godisawesome]

Oh, I can see all that stuff about Rey being overpowered. That’s where the main complaints about her being a Mary Sue are founded.

But a Mary Sue is about more than a power level. It’s about the shallow characterization elements that often contradict each other in an attempt to make the character the most important to the narrative. Superman, Captain Marvel, Goku can all be - and at times have been - overpowered to the extent in hurt their characters, and in particularly clumsy hands, have become “Mary Sue/Gary Stu”-like.

But characterization-wise, she has more defenses against the accusation, having more flaws, being treated less special by other character like Luke or Poe, and her character gives way and bends around a much more clear cut case of a characterization-bent Mary Sue...

...Ben Solo, on the other hand, has all the characterization-featured elements of a Gary Stu. His entire premise is being an OC Skywalker family member who everyone loves no matter what he does and who is everything to all people as long as they treat him as the “bestest, most importantest character.“ Rey fawns over him, Han and Leia literally die for him, and Luke Skywalker’s greatest failure within his own mind is betraying Ben (not, y’know, his dead students or the billions killed by SKB).

Kylo Ren was suffering a severe case of being a Complete Monster combining with Draco In Leather Pants.

Ben Solo is the Gary Stu that the story “gives birth to“ from Kylo Ren, at which point yeah, his power level also sees an upswing to necromancy and beating down the Knights of Ren-like fools.

And Rey’s story continuously makes way and is minimized for the sake of this Ben, who matters more to TLJ and TROS than she does, since he gets the climactic scene with Luke in TLJ, and Palpatine was brought back to serve him.

[WebLurker]

Anakin Skywalker was the Chosen One with a higher Midi-Chlorian count than Yoda. After 13 years of training he was still weaker than Yoda.
Luka Skywalker was the son of the Chosen One - after 4 years of training he was still weaker than the Emperor.
Ben Solo was the grandson of the Chosen One - after two decades of training with Luke Skywalker and Snoke, he was still weaker than Snoke who in turn was weaker than Palpatine.

Rey Palpatine was the granddaughter of Palpatine. Some 2 days after she found out that the Force existed, she managed to best a wounded Ben Solo. A week later, after receiving 2 days of "training" from Luke Skywalker, she was equal or superior to a healed ben Solo. One year later, she was equal or stronger than Palpatine.

Rey is a Mary Sue. Ben isnt a Gary Stu because he had - and needed - training to get to where he was.

Oh, boy, let's break this down:

Some 2 days after she found out that the Force existed, she managed to best a wounded Ben Solo.

Barely. Also note that the movie clearly showed that she was no match for a healthy Kylo Ren

A week later, after receiving 2 days of "training" from Luke Skywalker, she was equal or superior to a healed ben Solo.

Unknowable, they never fought in that movie.

One year later, she was equal or stronger than Palpatine.

??????????????!!!!!!!?!!!!!!????????

[godisawesome]

Oh, boy, let's break this down:



Barely. Also note that the movie clearly showed that she was no match for a healthy Kylo Ren



Unknowable, they never fought in that movie.



??????????????!!!!!!!?!!!!!!????????

I’d say there’s an increase in sloppiness as the series goes on that does undercut Kylo’s threat level to Rey and badly reflects on Rey’s potency as a Force User from a dramatic standpoint.

The duels on Starkiller Base take their time and put effort into trying to construct a scenario where Kylo’s superior skill and experience are acknowledged and shown, but don’t prevent a cathartic of hard won victory for Rey and the heroes. You’ve got him being shot by a weapon the film spent time hyping up beforehand, going through an emotional breakdown from killing Han, growing more and more exhausted and drained from bloodloss, getting wounded *again* by Finn when he toys with his food, and still took Rey out of the fight before it even began with a Force push so she had to rise while Finn occupied him, and he was still taking it easy on her so he could capture her before he reminded her of the Force, which she needed to win.

She also struggled to use the Jedi Mind Trick three times before it worked, and was stunned when she got the saber, possibly becausee she was desperately mimicking Kylo and a partially successful Force pull from him started it up into her hand.

TFA starts Rey’s Jedi Powers off above what a neophyte should have... but not by that much.

The problem is when TLJ had them tackle roughly equivalent Praetorian Guards, then showed them equally strong when fighting over the lightsaber this time, then had her lift a mountain of stuff that seemed significantly larger than Luke’s X-Wing, with the only story element leading to it being a joke from Luke.

That’s considerably ess of a carefully constructed paradigm, and does lend itself to stating that Rey’s powers have reached Kylo’s levels in a matter of days...


...Somewhat similar to how broadly conceived and casually accepting the film is of the premise “Rey finds Kylo sympathetic;” both are sloppy, ill thought out, and undermine the core conflict of the Sequel Trilogy at the most inoppurtune time.

TLJ is both portraying Rey as strong enough tha Kylo doesn’t pose nearly as much of a threat to her physically, while also arguing that he couldn’t possibly be a spiritual threat to her as an enemy she hates, because he’s just so lovable.

[wjowski]

Neither of them have **** on Revan, the God Emperor of Sue-kind.

[Username taken]

Kylo at least has some training, but otherwise, I won't argue against it.

This basically.

One could make the comparison between Rey and Kylo but Kylo was trained but two different masters.

[Celestialbeyonder]

But characterization-wise, she has more defenses against the accusation, having more flaws, being treated less special by other character like Luke or Poe, and her character gives way and bends around a much more clear cut case of a characterization-bent Mary Sue...

What flaws? She was 19 by the time of TFA yet:

- She can pilot the Millenium Falcon better than First Order pilots that had years of training
- She speeks Droid and Wookie
- She can fight of two guys larger and stronger than her
- She can repair the Falcon better than Han Solo
- She can use the Jedi mind trick out of nowhere - Everyone needed years of training to do this
- Everyone likes her - Lea hugs HER instead of Chewbacca after she finds out that Han died - Lea doesnt even know her
- REY is sent on a Mission to find Luke Skywalker - nobody knows her but she gets the most important mission in years
- She can swim….
- She invents/discovers force powers unknown to the Jedi before her/impossible for Jedi before her
- She is overpowered as hell

She is the very definition of a Marey Sue

[Celestialbeyonder]

Barely. Also note that the movie clearly showed that she was no match for a healthy Kylo Ren

The fact that she could best an experienced Force User - allthough wounded - is simply ridiculous. Force Pulling the Light Saber out of his Force Pull? Ludicrous.

Unknowable, they never fought in that movie.

She did equally well/better against the Pretorian Guard than him - she even saved him. And their Force pull of the Light Saber seemed to be pretty balanced. Problem is by this Point Kylo had like 20 years of Training/experience Marey Sue had like 10 days - two weeks tops.

??????????????!!!!!!!?!!!!!!????????

How else did she defeat him?

[Agent Z]

The fact that she could best an experienced Force User - allthough wounded - is simply ridiculous. Force Pulling the Light Saber out of his Force Pull? Ludicrous.

Again, he was injured. That sort of thing tends to impede your performance in battle.

How else did she defeat him?

By being possessed by the ghosts of every Jedi that ever lived. You did watch the movie right?

[Celestialbeyonder]

Again, he was injured. That sort of thing tends to impede your performance in battle.

1. She was injured as well - he slammed her into a tree and she fell like 5 meters. A Minute before fighting with Kylo she was unconscious.
2. She found out that the Force really existed like 2 days before and should not have been able to use any (concious) Force abilities.
3. Kylos injuries couldnt not have been that bad considered that he dispatched Finn quite easily

By being possessed by the ghosts of every Jedi that ever lived. You did watch the movie right?

Yeah, yeah - she was all the Jedi and Palpi was all the Sith and bla bla - Disney trash.

[Godzilla2099]

But characterization-wise, she has more defenses against the accusation, having more flaws, being treated less special by other character like Luke or Poe, and her character gives way and bends around a much more clear cut case of a characterization-bent Mary Sue...

What flaws did Rey have? Did she even make any mistakes?

As for these people saying she's not a Mary Sue, yeah, she was

After hearing the Force is real:

- She's able to pilot the Falcon against TIE Fighter Pilots
- Resist Telepathy
- Use Telepathy
- Telekinesis
- Never picked up a lightsaber and beats up Kylo Ren

And this was all in the first movie. I didn't see the final movie (TFA shame on Disney. TLJ shame on me). I did see the scene where Palpatine and Rey was locked in a fight until...Rey pulls out TWO Lightsabers and saves the day!

I'll fix this topic. Rey is a Mary Sue. Kylo Ren was laughably horrible

[Vegeta]

But characterization-wise, she has more defenses against the accusation, having more flaws, being treated less special by other character like Luke or Poe, and her character gives way and bends around a much more clear cut case of a characterization-bent Mary Sue...

One of the hallmarks of a Mary Sue is that when a character disagrees with them, that character will be shown as in the wrong. Both Luke and Poe challenge Rey's viewpoints and are shown to be in the wrong. Every other heroic character agrees with and or constantly praises her. Particularly, Finn. He spends the last film chiding Poe for not being as good as Leia and following Rey around like a lost puppy.

What are Rey's flaws according to you?
- Caring too much?
-Seeing the best in everyone? Even a "monster" like Kylo Ren.
- Wanting to see her parents?

Because none of those are flaws. A flaw is a personality trait that will hinder the protagonist in some manner. Something to overcome for personal growth. Luke and Anakin in their second episodes both have the fatal flaw of hubris, and they pay for it. Anakin foolishly charged into battle with Dooku, is beaten and left disfigured by the encounter. He only survived due to Yoda's intervention. Luke also ignored his mentors and charged off untrained to battle Vader. He too is left disfigured and in need of rescue from other characters. Both are humbled by their experiences. (Luke more than Anakin though.)
Rey ignores her Master and charges off to save Kylo Ren. This inadvertently causes the death of the Supreme Leader Snoke. (Yay!) She battles Kylo Ren and then easily escapes in a shuttle while he is left unconscious. She is next shown shooting down fighters in the Falcon smiling away and wooing "I LIKE THIS!" She then saves the resistance by lifting a bunch of rocks.
Don't confuse flaws with quirks. Quirks are just some unusual behavior (often cute) that don't truly impact the narrative in any negative way. for example, Luna Lovegood is quirky, but her unique way of viewing the world often helps her comrades by noticing something they would not.

Ben Solo, on the other hand, has all the characterization-featured elements of a Gary Stu. His entire premise is being an OC Skywalker family member who everyone loves no matter what he does and who is everything to all people as long as they treat him as the “bestest, most importantest character.“ Rey fawns over him, Han and Leia literally die for him, and Luke Skywalker’s greatest failure within his own mind is betraying Ben (not, y’know, his dead students or the billions killed by SKB).

Leia and Han are Ben's PARENTS. Of course they would die for him. And Luke is his uncle who feels guilty that he drove Ben away. He wasn't some unrelated character that showed up one day that everyone decided just to bow down to. Chewie had no problem trying to kill him. He is very much a Draco in Leather pants though I will give you that.

[Godzilla2099]

What flaws? She was 19 by the time of TFA yet:

- Everyone likes her - Lea hugs HER instead of Chewbacca after she finds out that Han died - Lea doesnt even know her

At the end of TFA I was wondering why Rey went up to give Luke his lightsaber. Most of the cast that actually knows Luke (including his own sister) is at the bottom of the hill, but let's send Rey to do it.