*IF* Rey is a Mary Sue... then Ben Solo’s *definitely* a “Gary Stu.”

[godisawesome]

Rey actually has a pretty severe and destructive flaw in TFA; it just got lost in the shuffle and ignored by TLJ.

Rey is in severe denial about being abandoned on Jakku in TFA, and utterly refuses to abandon the planet and keeps seeking to return even though she objectively has no reason to return, and has it so bad she has a severe case of “refusing the call” in her Hero’s Journey and runs off in the woods and away from the saber, isolating herself away from aid... which begins the series of events that ends with her having been tortured and having her mind violated by Kylo, Finn having his back filleted open, and contributes to Han being killed.

Rey in TFA really is comparable to Captain Marvel from her movie, in the nature of her power level and hang ups; replace amnesia with abandonment issues, and ridiculously untapped raw power with ridiculously intuitive skill, and you’ve got roughly the same setup. But Rey’s also got the advantage of a more realistic mental flaw, a more equal (and in terms of what it actually took to take him down, more powerful) villain, and a script that is trying to portray her as more stunned and struggling with the developments than Carol Danvers. It also does bear mentioning that while she flies the Falcon too well and holds her own in most fights, she gets ragdolled twice by Kylo even before their duel - TFA *does* show him as a greater Force User and duelist than Rey, else it wouldn’t need him to suffer so many injuries, get so exhausted, and need to take it easy on end in order for her to win.


Now, that’s not exactly a flattering comparison in terms of her being overpowered or the story being perhaps obnoxious in its empowerment elements... but it’s not the same issues she has in TLJ, which go above and beyond that...

... And Ben Solo *does* become a Black Hole Sue when TLJ begins, upon whose the story begins to rotate and lavish praises and sympathy upon.

He killed Han because Abrams wanted to have a Villain’s Journey badguy who was an escalation on Vader... But Rian Johnson couldn’t bear to think of Adam Driver a loathsome villain, so he chose to just change the story around him. And that culminates in TROS, which resurrected Palatine to serve a Ben Solo’s redemption story, not because they wanted Rey to have a challenge, dumping a bunch of money in front of Harrison Ford so that Kylo can do over the killing of Han, and basically retcon the story in his personal history, and act as a new character.

Fanfiction OCs are just as often relatives of previously known character as anything else. That’s why Kylo being a Solo doesn’t really defend him from Gary Stu complaints... and does bring up one of my beliefs about the ST:

- Rey was almost certainly *originally* conceived, cast, and written as a Skywalker or Solo, where a lot of the things she does would automatically be chalked up to her heritage, as it was with Kylo, then Abrams thought she would need training from Luke concurrent to Kylo finishing his training with Snoke, ergo, Rey would get better at the Force in a conventional manner, have her story get more complicated in a conventional manner , and then probably lose the rematch handily to Kylo in a conventional manner (because again, Abrams and Kasdan through everything but the kitchen sink onto TFA to try and establish that Kylo was a greater threat than Rey but could be worn down, injured, and distract enough for her to beat him...

- And then TLJ came in, and screwed they plan up, leading to Rey simultaneously gaining even more power and skill with even less truckers and basically mocked the idea of training outright, while also simultaneously hallowing out her character to serve Kylo/Ben, who moves beyond simple Draco In Leather Pants when he takes the spotlight away from Rey at the end of the story to face off against Luke, because Rian Johnson really is apathetic towards her story and characterization, and thinks Kylo makes a better character, even though all he’s done is make the school shooter Neo Nazi would-be-Mind-rapist say “Luke started it!”.... and then argue that makes him sympathetic and more worthy of pity and attention than *literally everyone else.*

Basically... I’m arguing that if you think Rey is a Mary Sue, Kylo is also a Gary Stu... and probably the one that Rey was supposed to be originally, and is allowed to coast because the Skywalker and Solo name lets them hide his privilege and overpowered nature behind audience expectations.

[Vegeta]

Most characters following the hero's journey refuse the call initially. Luke needed his adoptive parents murdered to push him forward to leave Tatooine. Rey's "destructive flaw" as you put it, doesn't result in any form of well, destruction. No one pays the price because she wanted to return to Jakku. (Han Solo's death only occurs because he has willingly chose to confront his son, telling Leia he was going to bring him back, not because of Rey.) Rey is only momentarily captured, and since she easily frees herself from the First Order she learns nothing from the experience. Ultimately, Rey suffers no actual consequences for this "flaw." (And since she flies off to meet Luke Skywalker towards the end of TFA of her own accord, I'd say the subplot of her wanting to return to Jakku was forgotten before TLJ.)

And equating her to Captain Marvel of all characters isn't exactly going to make people think her less a Mary Sue, btw.

[The Cool Thatguy]

While I wouldn't call her a mary sue, I honestly think Rey is just as well developed as Luke was in the trilogy. Which frankly, isn't much.

And on top of that, the force gives users abilities that double as skills (precognition, flight, etc).

This is not to say that a great deal of resistance to Rey isn't rooted in sexism, though.

[Celestialbeyonder]

This is not to say that a great deal of resistance to Rey isn't rooted in sexism, though.

Not this crap again. Around 90% of the "Sexism" against a female character comes from the character beeing written poorly/overpowered/because the actress is a bitch in real life.

Thats why Captain Marvel/Rey get all the "Sexism" while:

Alita
Hela
Trinity
Nebula
Gamora
Ashoka
Wonder Woman
Storm

and many others get almost none.

While I wouldn't call her a mary sue, I honestly think Rey is just as well developed as Luke was in the trilogy. Which frankly, isn't much.

Luke goes from naive farmboy to composed Jedi Knight. He needs three whole movies for this - along the way he loses a hand, gets beaten up several times, needs teaching from senior force users and has to be saved constantly by his friends.

Compared to that, the amazing Wonder Rey has 0 character development, except for her getting force powers, she doesnt change one bit.

And on top of that, the force gives users abilities that double as skills (precognition, flight, etc).

You just need to train to utilize this ability - which she didnt have to.

[CliffHanger2]

Eh, I'd disagree. Ren suffered more physically, emotionally and mentally. He also had to train. Rey was holding space cruisers in mid-air from flying off. Like huge power jumps out of nowhere.

[Godzilla2099]

While I wouldn't call her a mary sue, I honestly think Rey is just as well developed as Luke was in the trilogy. Which frankly, isn't much.

Luke? Overpowered?

- Got beat up by sand people. Kenobi had to save him
- Got beat at the Mos Eisley Cantina. Kenobi had to help him
- Vader almost shot him down. Solo had to save him

Rey beat up her attackers. Rey released herself from capture.

This is not to say that a great deal of resistance to Rey isn't rooted in sexism, though.

Ugh. This again? Sorry, Rey isn't some breakthrough Female Lead Heroine. That ship sailed a long time ago. Aliens, Resident Evil, Xena, Underworld, and two Terminator Movies say Hi

But we'll use Star Trek and Star Wars to prove a point

Captain Kathryn Janeway: Graduated from Starfleet. Science Officer on a previous starship. Promoted to Captain. Definitely made her share of questionable choices and mistakes but ultimately got her crew home

Ahsoka Tano: Padawan assigned to Anakin Skywalker. Barely after leaving the temple and thrown into the Clone Wars. Impulsive but her Master wasn't exactly the stern type. Both of them saved each other several times. She eventually became skilled enough to fight Vader to a near standstill.

Barely anyone had problems with any of these heroines. Theses characters are organic. They had training or past experience. They took falls, but they got back up. Notice the pattern here?

[Godzilla2099]

Ok, maybe there is sexism involved. Looks like your gender is a bigger qualifier than actual talents and experiences. Certainly explains Rey's "Abilities"

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/...141719033.html

[Agent Z]

Luke? Overpowered?

- Got beat up by sand people. Kenobi had to save him
- Got beat at the Mos Eisley Cantina. Kenobi had to help him
- Vader almost shot him down. Solo had to save him

Rey beat up her attackers. Rey released herself from capture.



Ugh. This again? Sorry, Rey isn't some breakthrough Female Lead Heroine. That ship sailed a long time ago. Aliens, Resident Evil, Xena, Underworld, and two Terminator Movies say Hi

But we'll use Star Trek and Star Wars to prove a point

Captain Kathryn Janeway: Graduated from Starfleet. Science Officer on a previous starship. Promoted to Captain. Definitely made her share of questionable choices and mistakes but ultimately got her crew home

Ahsoka Tano: Padawan assigned to Anakin Skywalker. Barely after leaving the temple and thrown into the Clone Wars. Impulsive but her Master wasn't exactly the stern type. Both of them saved each other several times. She eventually became skilled enough to fight Vader to a near standstill.

Barely anyone had problems with any of these heroines. Theses characters are organic. They had training or past experience. They took falls, but they got back up. Notice the pattern here?

Ahsoka might be a fan favorite now but she wasn't one originally. And Janeway has been one of the most divisive Star Trek characters since Voyager and is the second most hated captain after Archer.

Ok, maybe there is sexism involved. Looks like your gender is a bigger qualifier than actual talents and experiences. Certainly explains Rey's "Abilities"

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/...141719033.html

From the article.

Chow directed ‘Chapter 3: The Sin’ and ‘Chapter 7: The Reckoning’ of the Disney+ series which stars Pedro Pascal, and was recently announced as the sole director of the upcoming Ewan McGregor series. Bryce Dallas Howard directed ‘Chapter 4: Sanctuary’ of The Mandalorian.

Every time the subject of bringing in more diverse voices behind the scenes gets talked about, we have people spitting on the idea and acting like these companies don't care about qualifications. As if the people who want more female directors and writers want to give the anti-diversity crowd more ammunition. Three of the episodes of the Mandalorian have been directed by women and they have all been critically acclaimed. This same nonsense happened when WB announced they were looking for a woman to direct the Wonder Woman movie and people acted like they'd grab any woman from off the street.

Also, I wouldn't call the female leads of the Underworld and Resident Evil movies fantastically written female characters. In fact, Alice of Resident Evil gets the same "Mary Sue" criticism that Rey is subjected to. Personally, I don't care for Alice but I don't consider Mary Sue a valid criticism since 99% of the people who sue it online seem to have no idea what it means.

[Aahz]

Captain Kathryn Janeway: Graduated from Starfleet. Science Officer on a previous starship. Promoted to Captain. Definitely made her share of questionable choices and mistakes but ultimately got her crew home

Ahsoka Tano: Padawan assigned to Anakin Skywalker. Barely after leaving the temple and thrown into the Clone Wars. Impulsive but her Master wasn't exactly the stern type. Both of them saved each other several times. She eventually became skilled enough to fight Vader to a near standstill.

Barely anyone had problems with any of these heroines. Theses characters are organic. They had training or past experience. They took falls, but they got back up. Notice the pattern here?

People have problems with Janeway because of her very inconsistent characterisation.

[Aahz]

Like Vader (for the most part)? The only time we really see him without his helmet, is when he asks Luke to remove it and he's already dying.

There is technically a scene where we see the back of his head earlier, but he is one example. And when we finally see his face it is a pretty powerful scene.

Other examples of characters that are just cooler if they leave their helmet on are imo Boba Fett and Snake Eyes.

[Jackalope89]

There is technically a scene where we see the back of his head earlier, but he is one example. And when we finally see his face it is a pretty powerful scene.

Other examples of characters that are just cooler if they leave their helmet on are imo Boba Fett and Snake Eyes.

True.

Boba, with the clones being made after Jango and Boba being a clone as well, yeah. But it doesn't bother me much.

[WebLurker]

I’d say there’s an increase in sloppiness as the series goes on that does undercut Kylo’s threat level to Rey and badly reflects on Rey’s potency as a Force User from a dramatic standpoint...TFA starts Rey’s Jedi Powers off above what a neophyte should have... but not by that much.

Fair enough. I have always agreed that Rey's power levels in the original movie were within the normal spectrum of an above average Force user, per the standards set by the franchise and that the final duel was pretty well set up for the outcome by what we saw the characters doing prior.

The problem is when TLJ had them tackle roughly equivalent Praetorian Guards, then showed them equally strong when fighting over the lightsaber this time, then had her lift a mountain of stuff that seemed significantly larger than Luke’s X-Wing, with the only story element leading to it being a joke from Luke.

Fair point about the guards. IMHO, I always thought Rey seemed naturally attuned to telekinesis (and it is established in canon that Force users can have a skill that they just innately know how to use), given how much she uses it in the movies (and it has been established in canon that that is a skill that can be self-taught on the quick side if the person is able to).

...Somewhat similar to how broadly conceived and casually accepting the film is of the premise “Rey finds Kylo sympathetic;” both are sloppy, ill thought out, and undermine the core conflict of the Sequel Trilogy at the most inoppurtune time.

TLJ is both portraying Rey as strong enough tha Kylo doesn’t pose nearly as much of a threat to her physically, while also arguing that he couldn’t possibly be a spiritual threat to her as an enemy she hates, because he’s just so lovable.

I freely agree that Rey trusting Kylo was undercooked, at the very best. However, I think that TLJ also showed that she had made a serious mistake in trusting him, which helped make it more tolerable for me. IMHO, TROS was where they really dropped the ball with trying to convince us that Kylo was a good person we should feel sorry for after all, despite every previous movie proving that false time and again.

What flaws? She was 19 by the time of TFA yet:

Oh, my gosh, are we really doing this again?!

- She can pilot the Millenium Falcon better than First Order pilots that had years of training

After level-grinding for years on the hardest scenarios possible on a flight simulator (which included combat sessions), not to mention being a Force user (which has been shown repeatedly to be a huge equalizer in dog fights in the movies and TV shows). Also, she would've failed without Finn's manning the guns and insider knowledge.

- She speeks Droid and Wookie

Thank you for proving that you weren't paying attention during the movie and/or are very America-centric; it was shown that she grew up in a multilingual environment early on in the movie. Also, the Star Wars franchise has long shown that speaking multiple languages is a basic skill across the Galaxy, including among the poorest Outer Rim worlds. This has nothing to do with Rey possibly being a Mary Sue, but that the writers did their homework on how the Force works.

- She can fight of two guys larger and stronger than her

You mean the unarmed thugs she was biting and smacking with a metal staff? When she did something she had to learn how to do early in life to survive? Not a good argument.

- She can repair the Falcon better than Han Solo

Let's see, she grew up working with ship technology, read up on the subject, had operated on the Falcon before, and knew about the new tech that had been installed after Han lost the ship (the only stuff that was giving him trouble). Makes perfect sense.

- She can use the Jedi mind trick out of nowhere - Everyone needed years of training to do this

Except Anakin Skywalker, Ezra Bridger, Ahsoka Tano, all of who had performed some Force tricks early in life before they were given any training. Not to mention that Rey had been given a crash course by Kylo performing such tricks on her shortly before. Context is everything.

- Everyone likes her - Lea hugs HER instead of Chewbacca after she finds out that Han died - Lea doesnt even know her

Rey is a pretty likable person, so I don't see why her being popular is a problem (in most cases, we're even shown how she endeared herself to people). As far as Leia and Chewie, it's been long established that it was a filming error that Chewie was there (he was supposed to be gone with Finn and the med team when Leia got there). As far as why Leia would reach out to Rey, why the heck not? At this point, Rey is all alone, in bad shape, and in need of support. It's basic empathy. If nothing else, Leia would be able sympathize with Rey escaping capture and torture, having been in Imperial custody herself. Besides, she knew from Finn's explanation a bit about her and would've connected the dots with Finn being in critical condition that Rey has people she cares about on the line.

- REY is sent on a Mission to find Luke Skywalker - nobody knows her but she gets the most important mission in years

Artoo and Chewie go with her, but I guess they're chopped liver, huh? Beyond that, did you miss the part that she was being sent so Luke could train her?

- She can swim….

Missed that little oversight. (They actually had an old Marvel comic where they forgot that Luke probably never learned to swim, accidentally missing that fact from an old novel). Still, not enough to prove Mary Sue, esp. when it was probably just something the filmmakers forgot to think about.

- She invents/discovers force powers unknown to the Jedi before her/impossible for Jedi before her

She doesn't; everything new she does was shown after it was established that she'd been studying the lost Jedi texts (and having been formally trained by Leia, a full Jedi Knight by education and training herself, if not in title).

- She is overpowered as hell

Sadly, the facts do not support that conclusion. (You're thinking of Starkiller; Rey is nowhere near that level of power

She is the very definition of a Marey Sue

Dude, the whole "Rey is a Mary Sue" thing was DOA back in 2015. I know, I was there when it died in a pathetic whimper. If you want to resurrect that old fallacy, you're going to need to do a whole heck of a lot better then you have so far.

The fact that she could best an experienced Force User - allthough wounded - is simply ridiculous. Force Pulling the Light Saber out of his Force Pull? Ludicrous.

No, just good writing, thanks to the effective use of showing and Chekov's guns. Seriously, the movie doesn't get the recognition it deserves for this kind of storytelling. Watch the movie again and take notes.

She did equally well/better against the Pretorian Guard than him - she even saved him. And their Force pull of the Light Saber seemed to be pretty balanced. Problem is by this Point Kylo had like 20 years of Training/experience Marey Sue had like 10 days - two weeks tops.

Maybe (although see her established experience with melee weapons in TFA and that she was using a lightsaber). Still, one scene like this is not enough to make a character a Mary Sue.

How else did she defeat him?

Let's see, she had the Jedi of the past boosting her and she just reflected Paplatine's insanely powerful Force lighting back at himself (a pretty simple trick, as we've seen before). Like I said before, for someone determined to prove she's a Mary Sue, you're doing a pretty bad job making a convincing argument.

[Celestialbeyonder]

Oh, my gosh, are we really doing this again?!

Apparently Rey defenders will never accept that she is a shitty character. Oh well here we go again!

After level-grinding for years on the hardest scenarios possible on a flight simulator (which included combat sessions), not to mention being a Force user (which has been shown repeatedly to be a huge equalizer in dog fights in the movies and TV shows). Also, she would've failed without Finn's manning the guns and insider knowledge.

Ah this ridiculous excuse again:

- She was a scavanger that had to use most of her time hunting for scraps in order to survive so she couldnt have that much time to run he simulator
- She had no instructor
- She was perhaps good in SIMULATIONS, which are entirely different from the real thing
- The Simulator simulated Tie fighters - not a shipclas 5x larger and heavier
- She still didnt have any real combat experience
- The simulator is never mentioned in the movie but a retcon out of some expanded guides
- Why does an AT-AT have Pilot simulating technology build into it anyway?

Thank you for proving that you weren't paying attention during the movie and/or are very America-centric; it was shown that she grew up in a multilingual environment early on in the movie. Also, the Star Wars franchise has long shown that speaking multiple languages is a basic skill across the Galaxy, including among the poorest Outer Rim worlds. This has nothing to do with Rey possibly being a Mary Sue, but that the writers did their homework on how the Force works.

Ah this ridiculous excuse again:

- She was a scavanger that had to use most of her time hunting for scraps in order to survive, so she couldnt have that much time to learn droid and wookie
- She had no instructor that thought her
- Luke couldnt speak Droid/Wookie despite beeing schooled by his Uncle
- Han Solo couldnt speak droid despite him beeing an experienced smuggler
- Its AWFULLY convenient that she out of all the thousands of languages she picked up Wookie and not for example Mandaloria - now isnt it?

You mean the unarmed thugs she was biting and smacking with a metal staff? When she did something she had to learn how to do early in life to survive? Not a good argument.

Ah this ridiculous excuse again:

- She was a scavanger that had to use most of her time hunting for scraps in order to survive, so she couldnt have that much time to learn how to fight
- The thugs had to know how to fight as well
- Luke couldnt fight despite growing up in a dangerous enviroment
- One of the thugs hit her into the head - full force - her official weight is given as 54 Kilogram - yet she brushes it of like nothing, manages to escape a bear hug and win 2:1

Let's see, she grew up working with ship technology, read up on the subject, had operated on the Falcon before, and knew about the new tech that had been installed after Han lost the ship (the only stuff that was giving him trouble). Makes perfect sense.

This is getting tiresome.

- She was a scavanger that had to use most of her time hunting for scraps in order to survive, so she couldnt have that much time to learn how to repair ships
- When did she operate the Falcon?
- How did she know about the new tech that was installed?
- Why would Han Solo have problems with new Technology if he has more time to get accusomed to it than Rey and SW Technology advances/changes pretty slowly

Except Anakin Skywalker, Ezra Bridger, Ahsoka Tano, all of who had performed some Force tricks early in life before they were given any training. Not to mention that Rey had been given a crash course by Kylo performing such tricks on her shortly before. Context is everything.

- When did Anakin or Ahsoka perform force tricks before training? Unconscious Force use is not a Force trick
- There is a VAST difference between performing a Level 1 or 2 force trick and the Mind Trick - one of the most complicated force powers
- Ah sure thing. Other Train years to perform the Mind Trick, Rey learns it be seeing it. Monkey see. Monkey do. Thats not how the Force works

Rey is a pretty likable person, so I don't see why her being popular is a problem (in most cases, we're even shown how she endeared herself to people). As far as Leia and Chewie, it's been long established that it was a filming error that Chewie was there (he was supposed to be gone with Finn and the med team when Leia got there). As far as why Leia would reach out to Rey, why the heck not? At this point, Rey is all alone, in bad shape, and in need of support. It's basic empathy. If nothing else, Leia would be able sympathize with Rey escaping capture and torture, having been in Imperial custody herself. Besides, she knew from Finn's explanation a bit about her and would've connected the dots with Finn being in critical condition that Rey has people she cares about on the line.

- Rey is only likeable because she is a Marey Sue. Lea saw her for like a few minutes. No matter how many ridiculous excuses you produce, it doesnt make any sence and is bad writing.

Artoo and Chewie go with her, but I guess they're chopped liver, huh? Beyond that, did you miss the part that she was being sent so Luke could train her?

Sure sure that makes it all better.

Missed that little oversight. (They actually had an old Marvel comic where they forgot that Luke probably never learned to swim, accidentally missing that fact from an old novel). Still, not enough to prove Mary Sue, esp. when it was probably just something the filmmakers forgot to think about.

Oh another thing the forgot to think about - the 501st thing….

She doesn't; everything new she does was shown after it was established that she'd been studying the lost Jedi texts (and having been formally trained by Leia, a full Jedi Knight by education and training herself, if not in title).

Entire generation of Jedi Knights and Masters could not heal nor teleport things - yet Rey learns it from some old books? Again: RIDICULOUS

Sadly, the facts do not support that conclusion. (You're thinking of Starkiller; Rey is nowhere near that level of power)

You surely can give evidence to back up the claim that she is not overpowered hm? And Starkiller allthough overpowered had years or training.

Dude, the whole "Rey is a Mary Sue" thing was DOA back in 2015. I know, I was there when it died in a pathetic whimper. If you want to resurrect that old fallacy, you're going to need to do a whole heck of a lot better then you have so far.

Well you are living in a fantasy world then. Pretty much everyone agrees that Rey is a bad character. She is an overpowered Marey Sue. The facts speak for themself - your denial doesnt change one thing.

No, just good writing,

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Maybe (although see her established experience with melee weapons in TFA and that she was using a lightsaber). Still, one scene like this is not enough to make a character a Mary Sue.

Oh yes it is. Also it is not the only scene like this.

Let's see, she had the Jedi of the past boosting her and she just reflected Paplatine's insanely powerful Force lighting back at himself (a pretty simple trick, as we've seen before). Like I said before, for someone determined to prove she's a Mary Sue, you're doing a pretty bad job making a convincing argument.

Only for someone who ignors all the facts like yourself.

[Starter Set]

Don't even dare say bad things about Reysus Christ you sinner!!

[Celestialbeyonder]

Don't even dare say bad things about Reysus Christ you sinner!!

The Rey fanboys are allways using the same excuses that dont make any sense. Compared to Force Jesus Anakin and his son Luke, she is like 100 times better - yet this is not enough for her to be classified as a Marey Sue....

She is a 19 year girl - and she can speak multiple languages - has a pilot Degree - an engineering degree and a black belt in fighting. All self thought, besides her fulltime Job as a scavanger…...

Luke during ANH gets some infos about the Force - by the end of the movie he can use some aspects of it very rudimentary.
At the beginning of the next movie he has problems with pulling a lightsaber into his hand which is like 6 feet away from him. This is 3 YEARS later.
At the end of the movie - after receiving additional training - he is strong enough to be a challange for Vader - who is using a third of his power - or less.

The amazing Wonderrey however can resist/use the Jedi Mind Trick in the middle of the first movie - one of the most advanced techniques of the Jedi.
She can beat an experienced force user who is wounded. However, even if his injuries reduced him to just 10% of his real power, he should still have beaten her, considered that she had not training, no Infos on the force, no force ghost guiding her behind her back.

By the next movie - which takes place immediately after the last one, she is equal to 100% Kylo and can lift 50 tons of rocks like it was nothing.
Luke struggled with lifting 50 Kilos of rocks during TESB and a year later during ROTJ had to concentrate to lift 200 Kilo C3PO/Wood.

How people can defend her character is simply beyond me.