*IF* Rey is a Mary Sue... then Ben Solo’s *definitely* a “Gary Stu.”

[ChrisIII]

Luke was a pilot too, although we didn't see too much of it before the X-wing battle. He fley the thing he had a toy of (You can see the full size thing in the movie actually, next to the Lar's garage, although otherwise it doesn't appear until ROTJ's special edition) and he felt confident enough to submit an application to the Imperial academy.

His dialogue with Biggs also suggests he's a pretty skilled pilot, and other stuff has him be pretty good at shooting from ships too-the "here they come" scene and of course his "Womprat" boast.

He does seem a bit out of his depth on the Millennium Falcon at times but that's a considerably more complex ship than the one-man stuff he usually flies.


Rey also has lived her life among the wreckage of space debris so it's possibly she studied those ships as well. I think that's kind of why she found her way so easily around Starkiller and what was left of DSII-she's used to climbing around those kind of stuff.

[Celestialbeyonder]

Luke was a pilot too, although we didn't see too much of it before the X-wing battle. He fley the thing he had a toy of (You can see the full size thing in the movie actually, next to the Lar's garage, although otherwise it doesn't appear until ROTJ's special edition) and he felt confident enough to submit an application to the Imperial academy.

His dialogue with Biggs also suggests he's a pretty skilled pilot, and other stuff has him be pretty good at shooting from ships too-the "here they come" scene and of course his "Womprat" boast.

He does seem a bit out of his depth on the Millennium Falcon at times but that's a considerably more complex ship than the one-man stuff he usually flies.


Rey also has lived her life among the wreckage of space debris so it's possibly she studied those ships as well. I think that's kind of why she found her way so easily around Starkiller and what was left of DSII-she's used to climbing around those kind of stuff.

Luke had someone older than him as an instructor - he also went either to some form of school, or he received education from his Uncle/Aunt. So it was somewhat believable that he could fly and repair stuff. However he was far from the best and he couldnt speek droid/wookie and he couldnt really fight. He also could barely use the force.

[WebLurker]

Only for someone who ignors all the facts like yourself.

I've cited canon sources, including canon information you have to ignore to make the Rey is a Mary Sue thing work. Like I said, I've heard every argument before. Please please pretty please give me something new.

[Vegeta]

Except Anakin Skywalker, Ezra Bridger, Ahsoka Tano, all of who had performed some Force tricks early in life before they were given any training. Not to mention that Rey had been given a crash course by Kylo performing such tricks on her shortly before. Context is everything.

I love how this little tidbit wasn't established in ANY of the films, nor the novelization of THE FORCE AWAKENS but rather the novelization of THE LAST JEDI. It's almost as if someone read a bunch of fan theories on Reddit and decided to make it canon. (If Jedi could just download all the info from another jedi, wouldn't training a padawan be a snap? Just like Neo learning kung-fu!)

She doesn't; everything new she does was shown after it was established that she'd been studying the lost Jedi texts (and having been formally trained by Leia, a full Jedi Knight by education and training herself, if not in title).

If they were lost, then it had to have only happened at some point between the fall of the Republic and the Age of Rebellion, as apparently Yoda read them. ("Page turners they were not.") Force healing would have saved everyone a lot of grief during the Clone Wars. Heck, Obi-Wan should have been able to revive Qui-Gon right then and there on the spot.

Sadly, the facts do not support that conclusion. (You're thinking of Starkiller; Rey is nowhere near that level of power

That's quite the blanket statement, care to elaborate?

Dude, the whole "Rey is a Mary Sue" thing was DOA back in 2015. I know, I was there when it died in a pathetic whimper. If you want to resurrect that old fallacy, you're going to need to do a whole heck of a lot better then you have so far.

Funny that you never see Felicity Jones (Jyn Erso) have to deal constantly with fan backlash or quit instagram, etc. because of accusations of "Mary Sueisms", or sexism or whatever. A lot of people also seem to really like Cara Dune (Gina Carano) of the Mandalorian as well. Maybe Rey was just a poorly written character?

[Agent Z]

Funny that you never see Felicity Jones (Jyn Erso) have to deal constantly with fan backlash or quit instagram, etc. because of accusations of "Mary Sueisms", or sexism or whatever. A lot of people also seem to really like Cara Dune (Gina Carano) of the Mandalorian as well. Maybe Rey was just a poorly written character?

Just because an online mob treats a character like the second coming of Scrappy Doo doesn't actually mean the character was poorly written. What goes on in Internet forums and the real world are two different things.

[Jackalope89]

Rey and Kylo are both bad characters. Rey being a Sue, and Kylo being the second coming of Edward Cullen (yes, Reylo shippers, that IS a bad thing).

[Vegeta]

Just because an online mob treats a character like the second coming of Scrappy Doo doesn't actually mean the character was poorly written. What goes on in Internet forums and the real world are two different things.

That statement cuts both ways though, just because a bunch of sequel fans on the internet praise these films as exceptionally well written also doesn't make the statement true in "The real world." Merchandise sales however, can be somewhat fairly reflective of people's opinions and while TFA had strong sales, the merchandise released post-TLJ has not exactly flew off the shelves. If fans love something, they often want to own a little piece of that something. That's actually where MOST of the revenue is generated. Only the most die-hard completists will buy a figure or statue, etc. of something they hate.

[Celestialbeyonder]

I've cited canon sources, including canon information you have to ignore to make the Rey is a Mary Sue thing work.

1. You cited no canon sources at all
2. Sadly SW Canon is a mess and has to be taken with a grain of salt - Like the supposed Clone Army of 3.2 Million....
3. When watching the movies, one immediately can see that Marey Sue is just that. No hastily constructed narative in some guides can change that.

Like I said, I've heard every argument before. Please please pretty please give me something new.

Well these arguments are timeless and complete. Thats why you heared them in 2015, 2017 and 2019 and why you will continue to hear them in the future. No one ever debunked them either.

[WebLurker]

I love how this little tidbit wasn't established in ANY of the films, nor the novelization of THE FORCE AWAKENS but rather the novelization of THE LAST JEDI. It's almost as if someone read a bunch of fan theories on Reddit and decided to make it canon. (If Jedi could just download all the info from another jedi, wouldn't training a padawan be a snap? Just like Neo learning kung-fu!)

No, the Force Awakens novelization does address the mind trick, with Rey deciding to try and replicate Kylo's work on her (bear in mind that by trying to resist his mind reasdinf, she was able to not only block it but reverse it herself). I have the hardcover of that thing on my shelf. The download thing was invented for the TLJ novelization, but it was far from the first time the question was addressed in canon. (Also worth noting that the Dyad reveal in TROS does show that Rey and Kylo do have accesses to unique Force powers in relation to each other.)

If they were lost, then it had to have only happened at some point between the fall of the Republic and the Age of Rebellion, as apparently Yoda read them. ("Page turners they were not.") Force healing would have saved everyone a lot of grief during the Clone Wars. Heck, Obi-Wan should have been able to revive Qui-Gon right then and there on the spot.

Was Yoda aware of the texts before he passed on? In any event, it wouldn't be the first time that ancient knowledge was shown to have been lost, like the Force Ghost thing in the Clone Wars cartoon. Rey rediscovering powerful lost Jedi secrets and skills is perfectly in line with the world building of the franchise.

That's quite the blanket statement, care to elaborate?

Okay, look at it this way. The Force usage she shows is very much in line with the rules and world building (we've seen plenty of instances of untrained use of stuff, characters with elite parents inheriting a strong Force connection and potential, and such people progressing pretty quickly with crash courses). As a character, Rey is shown to make mistakes (her self-delusions about waiting for her family, thinking Kylo Ren would turn at the drop of a hat, her tendency to be curious about the dark side and lash out when angry, her initial assumption that having evil ancestors inherently made her a bad person), and is given a story arc with a few layers (finding her family, accepting her place in the legacy of the Force, coming to terms with her past both in how it has affected her present and in learning that it wasn't the one she'd been hoping it was) that feed into each other in interesting ways. I'm not sure everything was handled perfectly (her role in pulling Kylo back to the light was not very well thought out and half-baked and having two layers of retcons to her past made anything related to her development in regards to that choppy), but that's some pretty decent character work. If you want to know why I think Rey is far from being a Mary Sue, flat character, badly-written, etc., that's the short version. Hope that makes sense.

Funny that you never see Felicity Jones (Jyn Erso) have to deal constantly with fan backlash or quit instagram, etc. because of accusations of "Mary Sueisms", or sexism or whatever. A lot of people also seem to really like Cara Dune (Gina Carano) of the Mandalorian as well. Maybe Rey was just a poorly written character?

Or maybe the other characters were supporting characters or spinoff stars instead of being the heroine of a film series that had up to this point had male protagonists and the (false) reputation among some circles of being a "boys only club"? I've seen a lot of that online, sad to say.

1. You cited no canon sources at all

Apologies for not naming the sources.

Rey having access to a flight simulator that she honed her skills on came from the canon books Rey's Survival Guide, Before the Awakening, and Rey's Story. Also note that in the movie itself, it is established that Rey has flown real ships before.

Her having tinkered with the Falcon before is inferred from the movie when she explains that she warned Unkar Plutt not to install the compressor (and knew how to bypass it) and being aware that no one had flown the ship in years, reinforced in the canon novelization with added dialogue describing that she'd spent several nights to repair the old ship on her own time.

Rey being multilingual being perfectly normal was set up by establishing in the movie that she grew up in a place with various languages were used (Unkar uses Basic, the Teedos speak Teedo, the armored scavengers at the wash tables talk to her in an unspecified language. Furthermore, all the previous movies show that being multilingual is the norm; the Tattoine slave children in TPM speak more then Basic (so people of Rey's social status and lack of conventional education often are). All the other movies show multilingual conversations not being translated on a regular basis, so I'm not sure why this's even up for debate. The real point of all this is that Finn only knowing Basic is the odd one out due to his limited upbringing. (If Solo showing that Han knew some Wookiee language despite being a poor guttersnipe like Rey is too hard to swallow, the canon Rey's Survival Guide mentions that she picked it up from Wookiees traveling through Niima Outpost. That book also mentions that she used technical manuals she salvaged from the wrecks to learn droidspeak and many of her other mechanic skills.)

Telekinesis being relatively easy to self-teach was established in the canon novel Heir to the Jedi, where Luke does that shortly after ANH. (Also, why was it okay for Luke to pull that skill out in ESB despite having never been taught it, but it was wrong for Rey to do the same thing, despite them having similar medichlorian counts? Good for the goose and all that.) Also, Ezra Bridger performs telekinesis with zero training in the Rebels episode "Droids in Distress." All this material was written before Rey pulled the saber untrained, meaning that her doing it was well within the rules of the franchise.

Untrained Force users doing stuff without being taught was seen with Anakin in TMP (he podraced with Jedi-level Force reflexes), Ezra repeatedly Rebels (danger sense in "Property of Ezra Bridger," Force jumps, sensing and opening holocrons in the "Spark of Rebellion," the aforementioned Force push in "Droids in Distress"). Ahsoka's backstory involved her sensing deception through the Force shortly before being taken in to the Jedi Order. The Ahsoka novel also establishes that some Force-sensitives had a specific Force skill that they innately know how to use without any training (she meets one with a danger sense). While it's unknown if Rey is one of those people, the point is is that there is a long history of untrained Force use, including things Rey herself does.

Anything else you wanted me to cite?

2. Sadly SW Canon is a mess and has to be taken with a grain of salt - Like the supposed Clone Army of 3.2 Million....

Was that from Legends? Legend continuity is indeed a mess. However, I am sticking to canon sources and, in many cases, can corroborate from more then one.

3. When watching the movies, one immediately can see that Marey Sue is just that. No hastily constructed narative in some guides can change that.

Canon material is canon material and has to be accounted for. (Your argument is that Rey is a Mary Sue, not that the movie should've had such and such in it, so you are bound by all the facts and sources.) Also, a large number of the Mary Sue claims can be debunked by the movies alone (e.g. her knowing multiple languages, doing some Force stuff untrained, having a fast progression).

Well these arguments are timeless and complete. Thats why you heared them in 2015, 2017 and 2019 and why you will continue to hear them in the future.

As outlined above, they are far from complete.

No one ever debunked them either.

I just did, just as I did in 2015, 2017, and 2019 and will continue to do so as long as the myth and bad reasoning behind it persist.

[Celestialbeyonder]

Telekinesis being relatively easy to self-teach was established in the canon novel Heir to the Jedi, where Luke does that shortly after ANH. (Also, why was it okay for Luke to pull that skill out in ESB despite having never been taught it, but it was wrong for Rey to do the same thing,

Because ESB takes place 3 YEARS after ANH and involved pulling a lightsaber from 6 feet away.

In TFA she uses this skill 2 days after her first contact with the force - pulling a lightsaber from 100 feet - against the force pull of an experienced force user.

Also, Ezra Bridger performs telekinesis with zero training in the Rebels episode "Droids in Distress." All this material was written before Rey pulled the saber untrained, meaning that her doing it was well within the rules of the franchise.

Untrained Force users doing stuff without being taught was seen with Anakin in TMP (he podraced with Jedi-level Force reflexes), Ezra repeatedly Rebels (danger sense in "Property of Ezra Bridger," Force jumps, sensing and opening holocrons in the "Spark of Rebellion," the aforementioned Force push in "Droids in Distress"). Ahsoka's backstory involved her sensing deception through the Force shortly before being taken in to the Jedi Order. The Ahsoka novel also establishes that some Force-sensitives had a specific Force skill that they innately know how to use without any training (she meets one with a danger sense). While it's unknown if Rey is one of those people, the point is is that there is a long history of untrained Force use, including things Rey herself does.

First: Ezra had some training by Kanan before using his force powers. And using the Force in a very very limited way with no training, is in no way comparible to advanced Force use without training.

Second: And it is this advanced force use that makes Marey Sue a Mary Sue. While everyone else had to train to use advanced force abilities, she is handed these abilities on a silver platter. Even if one overlooks her abilities in TFA, her skill in TLJ - which takes place hours/minutes after TFA - is bordering on Jedi Master Level. She can compete with Force user that had DECADES of experience/training after a few DAYS. Its ridiculous. If someone defends this, he or she is truly lost.

[WebLurker]

Because ESB takes place 3 YEARS after ANH and involved pulling a lightsaber from 6 feet away.

In TFA she uses this skill 2 days after her first contact with the force - pulling a lightsaber from 100 feet - against the force pull of an experienced force user.

What does have to do with the fact that Luke taught himself to do it within a few sessions? (Also, notice how sloppy Kylo was getting the longer it went on. Heck

First: Ezra had some training by Kanan before using his force powers. And using the Force in a very very limited way with no training, is in no way comparible to advanced Force use without training.

The scenes with Ezra that I cited all happened before his lessons started. In fact, in the "Droids" episode, it's a plot point that he's asking when they will start and Kanan tells him that they will start after the big Force push. That's not guesswork, that is an ironclad fact.

Second: And it is this advanced force use that makes Marey Sue a Mary Sue. While everyone else had to train to use advanced force abilities, she is handed these abilities on a silver platter. Even if one overlooks her abilities in TFA, her skill in TLJ - which takes place hours/minutes after TFA - is bordering on Jedi Master Level. She can compete with Force user that had DECADES of experience/training after a few DAYS. Its ridiculous. If someone defends this, he or she is truly lost.

Secondly, where is it written that what Rey does is with the sabe in TFA is "advanced?" All we know is that there is one instance (at least, if we don't consider Force jumps part of the same skillset) of someone doing it untrained, a novice with a similar level of training as herself picking it up with little trouble, and that some Force users can naturally do some skills without being shown how. That tells us that it's a lower level skill and Rey picking it up like that is nowhere near as improbable as you're making out.

As far as Rey competing with Kylo, notice how she only wins when he has a handicap? It's weird, really, like she's not as powerful as people make her out to be or something.

[Celestialbeyonder]

What does have to do with the fact that Luke taught himself to do it within a few sessions?

Because allthough Luke taught himselft how to do it within a few sessions, he still struggles with it a few years later. All this time where he could hone his abilities and he still isnt the best at it. Rey can do it better right of the bat.

The scenes with Ezra that I cited all happened before his lessons started. In fact, in the "Droids" episode, it's a plot point that he's asking when they will start and Kanan tells him that they will start after the big Force push. That's not guesswork, that is an ironclad fact.

Doesnt mean that Kanan didnt give Ezra a crash course/tips and that Ezra didnt experiment with his abilities before the Episode. And again: using the Force in a very very limited way with no training, is in no way comparible to advanced Force use without training.

Secondly, where is it written that what Rey does is with the sabe in TFA is "advanced?" All we know is that there is one instance (at least, if we don't consider Force jumps part of the same skillset) of someone doing it untrained, a novice with a similar level of training as herself picking it up with little trouble, and that some Force users can naturally do some skills without being shown how. That tells us that it's a lower level skill and Rey picking it up like that is nowhere near as improbable as you're making out.

Using the Jedi Mind Trick, beeing able to Force Pull a light saber across half a mile - out of the grip of a far more experienced Force user and beating this force user (although wounded) - two DAYS after finding out that the Force is real - is apparently the lower level skill of a novice….. Compare this to the Force abilities displayed by Luke/Anakin during the first movie and you get the Marey Sue Alarm.

As far as Rey competing with Kylo, notice how she only wins when he has a handicap?.

Kylo didnt have a handicap during TLJ - yet she was equal - or better than him - at fighting the Praetorian Guard AND her Force Pull was equal to his. This was like a WEEK after her first encounter with the Force - A WEEK! Yet she slaughters several experienced fighters who give Kylo a good run for his money. An experienced force user that had TWO DECADES of training.

It's weird, really, like she's not as powerful as people make her out to be or something.

This constant downplaying of her ridiculously overpowered abilities is like claiming that a Millionarie isnt really that rich when compared to the average Joe...

Dude, by TLJ she is a Jedi Master. She lifted like 50 TONS or rocks, like it was nothing - like a WEEK after she found out about the Force - with no training at all.

Remember how Luke tried to lift his X-Wing? THREE YEARS after discovering the Force? After receving instructions by Obi Wan, after he hones his skills for THREE YEARS and after some training from Yoda? He failed.

[Starter Set]

Well, let's just hope this character is never used again in a star wars movie.

You know, i have nothing against Disney's princesses and i understand that the evil mouse wants to sell dolls to little girls and geeks but that doesn't work all that well in a Star Wars movie. Hell, if you really want to go down that road just make her sing. Watching that crap i was kinda waiting for rey and kilo interpretation of "going the distance".

The best we can hope for her, if anyone cares at this point anyway, is something like the clone wars cartoon. It saved the prequels, it saved Anakin. I never gave the slightest start of a fck about Anakin before that show. (freaking sand hater) But it made me enjoy the character. How's that for a miracle?

Maybe a new cartoon can salvage Rey, if finally the writers start writing her as an actual human being and not just a paragon of female perfection.

[Agent Z]

Rey's reputation is nowhere near as bad as Anakin's was before the Clone Wars series.

[Moon Ronin]

Well, let's just hope this character is never used again in a star wars movie.

You know, i have nothing against Disney's princesses and i understand that the evil mouse wants to sell dolls to little girls and geeks but that doesn't work all that well in a Star Wars movie. Hell, if you really want to go down that road just make her sing. Watching that crap i was kinda waiting for rey and kilo interpretation of "going the distance".

The best we can hope for her, if anyone cares at this point anyway, is something like the clone wars cartoon. It saved the prequels, it saved Anakin. I never gave the slightest start of a fck about Anakin before that show. (freaking sand hater) But it made me enjoy the character. How's that for a miracle?

Maybe a new cartoon can salvage Rey, if finally the writers start writing her as an actual human being and not just a paragon of female perfection.

The only issue is that is the short time of the sequel trilogy, being slightly over a year with the first two movies taken place under a month. Both the original trilogy and the prequel trilogy each take place over a span of years giving room for "fillers" like the Cone Wars cartoon there is really no such room with the new ones.

I was with Rey up until the end of The Last Jedi when she basically moved half a mountain after hanging out with Luke for a few days and Luke couldn't get his X-Wing out of the swamp after working with the force for a few years and some training with Yoda. I liked JJ's movies they were fun. For me it was The Last Jedi that really brought this trilogy down.