*IF* Rey is a Mary Sue... then Ben Solo’s *definitely* a “Gary Stu.”

[Starter Set]

The only issue is that is the short time of the sequel trilogy

True, true, didn't think about that.

Ah well, let's just hope Disney has learned something from that character.

[ChrisIII]

The only issue is that is the short time of the sequel trilogy, being slightly over a year with the first two movies taken place under a month. Both the original trilogy and the prequel trilogy each take place over a span of years giving room for "fillers" like the Cone Wars cartoon there is really no such room with the new ones.

I was with Rey up until the end of The Last Jedi when she basically moved half a mountain after hanging out with Luke for a few days and Luke couldn't get his X-Wing out of the swamp after working with the force for a few years and some training with Yoda. I liked JJ's movies they were fun. For me it was The Last Jedi that really brought this trilogy down.

Wonder what would've happened if JJ ended TFA differently? Maybe stretch the search for Luke into the second film, but I think Abrams needed that 'sting' and had to fit Luke/Hammil in somewhere, since fans of course wanted to pretty much see all the main core characters return (Lando was a bit of give and take I think, even in ROTJ he was sort of not really part of the core group as he had his own side mission, although oddly in both trilogies he's the one who secures perhaps the most meaningful victory to the rest of the galaxy).

[Starter Set]

Wonder what would've happened if JJ ended TFA differently?

Guess we wouldn't had to endure that stupid ass scene with Luke throwing away his father lightsaber as if it was some random ****. That would have been an improvement.

But that's an interesting question.

[WebLurker]

Because allthough Luke taught himselft how to do it within a few sessions, he still struggles with it a few years later. All this time where he could hone his abilities and he still isnt the best at it. Rey can do it better right of the bat.

Not quite an equal comparison; Luke was badly injured, which, as we saw with Kylo in TFA, wrecks havoc with effective Force usage. Besides, that's changing the argument from the original one; that Rey could not figure out that skill without being taught by someone else.

Doesnt mean that Kanan didnt give Ezra a crash course/tips and that Ezra didnt experiment with his abilities before the Episode.

No, Kanan gave him nothing prior (that's a fact from the episode itself, so let's stop with that idea here), and Ezra performing any self-experimentation is purely speculation and reinforces the idea that it would be credible for Rey to work out some stuff once her power was unlocked and all that.

And again: using the Force in a very very limited way with no training, is in no way comparible to advanced Force use without training.

And again; there's nothing to prove that telekinesis is an advanced skill and evidence that it is not (e.g. that untrained/minimally trained people can figure it out).

Using the Jedi Mind Trick, beeing able to Force Pull a light saber across half a mile - out of the grip of a far more experienced Force user and beating this force user (although wounded) - two DAYS after finding out that the Force is real - is apparently the lower level skill of a novice…..

The mind trick has been explained in canon, the Saber pull makes sense given preestablished canon information, and her barely disarming Kylo was carefully set up in the movie with the unique circumstances of his serious injuries (the guy was shot with a gun that was showing to be little more then a rocket launcher and was shown to be weakening all through the duel, with Rey's limited Force connection and preestablished melee combat knowledge) -- and Kylo still almost won. If all you got out of that scene is "look how overpowered she is," you either misread it or are ignoring something.

Compare this to the Force abilities displayed by Luke/Anakin during the first movie and you get the Marey Sue Alarm.

More like double standard alarm (I mean, how much actual training did Luke get before he was facing off against a Sith Lord and impressing him?).

Kylo didnt have a handicap during TLJ - yet she was equal - or better than him - at fighting the Praetorian Guard AND her Force Pull was equal to his. This was like a WEEK after her first encounter with the Force - A WEEK! Yet she slaughters several experienced fighters who give Kylo a good run for his money. An experienced force user that had TWO DECADES of training.

The trilogy constantly shows that Kylo is the better fighter; Rey only wins when he's injured or takes advantage of a distraction. Whether her staff skills and what she knew of Force usage would've been enough to take on the Guards is a separate question from if she was as powerful as Kylo (which was already answered). As far as the Force pull, maybe she is a prodigy in that skill. As noted before, that would fit perfectly with canon information.

This constant downplaying of her ridiculously overpowered abilities is like claiming that a Millionarie isnt really that rich when compared to the average Joe...

And yet everything "overpowered" she does is shown to not be as extreme as you want to believe it is.

Dude, by TLJ she is a Jedi Master. She lifted like 50 TONS or rocks, like it was nothing - like a WEEK after she found out about the Force - with no training at all.

You do remember that there's more to being a Jedi then moving rocks and that moving rocks is on the lower end of the power of the Force?

Remember how Luke tried to lift his X-Wing? THREE YEARS after discovering the Force? After receving instructions by Obi Wan, after he hones his skills for THREE YEARS and after some training from Yoda? He failed.

I remember that. I also remember that Luke didn't believe he could do it (a problem Rey didn't seem to have) and that Yoda's reaction suggested that Luke gave up too easily on something that he could have completed. I also remember that Luke had had only one lesson from Ben and that his self-teaching was spotty due to lack of info and teachers. I also remember that he got way less then a month of lessons from Yoda (with no evidence if he was taught swordsmanship) and went on to fight Vader and impress him with what he could do and then, with no formal training beyond what he could work out himself, becomes a Knight-level master able to defeat Vader, a Sith Lord with decades of training and one of the most powerful Force users the Galaxy had ever seen.

Compare that to Rey, who is shown to be gifted and figuring a few things out (with or without that download), but, even after putting in more formal training then Luke did under a master, still cannot defeat the powerful dark side users without the help of others or taking advantage of circumstances. Why is it suddenly bad what Rey does when we've always been okay with Luke being the franchise's original Mary Sue?

[Celestialbeyonder]

Not quite an equal comparison; Luke was badly injured, which, as we saw with Kylo in TFA, wrecks havoc with effective Force usage.

Rey was injured as well. Kylo slammed her into a tree, she fell 5 meters and was unconscious a minute before she fought Kylo - yet she still displayed far superior abilities to Luke that had YEARS of experience.

Besides, that's changing the argument from the original one; that Rey could not figure out that skill without being taught by someone else.

Ok Im going to bite: How many days/weeks/sessions did it take Luke to learn - the Basic - use of this power in the novel? Could he have overpowered the Force pull of another (weak) trained force user and move objects from 100 feet away? Or were his abilities quite limited?

No, Kanan gave him nothing prior (that's a fact from the episode itself, so let's stop with that idea here), and Ezra performing any self-experimentation is purely speculation and reinforces the idea that it would be credible for Rey to work out some stuff once her power was unlocked and all that.

Could Ezra have overpowered the Force pull of another (weak) trained force user and move objects from 100 feet away? Or were his abilities quite limited?

And again; there's nothing to prove that telekinesis is an advanced skill and evidence that it is not (e.g. that untrained/minimally trained people can figure it out).

Can untrained people have overpowered the Force pull of another (weak) trained force user and move objects from 100 feet away? Or are the abilities quite limited?

The mind trick has been explained in canon,

Sorry BS "explanations" are BS "explanations"

the Saber pull makes sense given preestablished canon information, and her barely disarming Kylo was carefully set up in the movie with the unique circumstances of his serious injuries

Yet these injuries didnt prevent him from slaughtering Finn - a supposedly trained Stormtrooper who wasnt suffering from a concussion by beeing slammed into a tree and falling 5 meters.

More like double standard alarm (I mean, how much actual training did Luke get before he was facing off against a Sith Lord and impressing him?).

More than Rey.

And yet everything "overpowered" she does is shown to not be as extreme as you want to believe it is.

Only when you close your eyes during the scene she does it.

You do remember that there's more to being a Jedi then moving rocks and that moving rocks is on the lower end of the power of the Force?

Jedi Master Yoda had more problems with lifting an X Wing - or the thing Dooku threw at Obi Wan and Anakin than Rey had Lifting 50 Tons of rocks- However he had like 850 years of Training - she knew about the Force since 5 days - had no Training and was pulling her powers out of her ass.

I remember that. I also remember that Luke didn't believe he could do it (a problem Rey didn't seem to have) and that Yoda's reaction suggested that Luke gave up too easily on something that he could have completed. I also remember that Luke had had only one lesson from Ben and that his self-teaching was spotty due to lack of info and teachers. I also remember that he got way less then a month of lessons from Yoda (with no evidence if he was taught swordsmanship) and went on to fight Vader and impress him with what he could do and then, with no formal training beyond what he could work out himself, becomes a Knight-level master able to defeat Vader, a Sith Lord with decades of training and one of the most powerful Force users the Galaxy had ever seen.

Compare that to Rey, who is shown to be gifted and figuring a few things out (with or without that download), but, even after putting in more formal training then Luke did under a master, still cannot defeat the powerful dark side users without the help of others or taking advantage of circumstances. Why is it suddenly bad what Rey does when we've always been okay with Luke being the franchise's original Mary Sue?

So you criticise Luke for having not enough training - but at the same time praise Rey that has no training at all - really?
You criticise Vader for beeing taken completely off guard by Lukes sudden outburst of Power - but make up excuses why Red constantly kicks Kylos ass - really?

[Moon Ronin]

Not quite an equal comparison; Luke was badly injured, which, as we saw with Kylo in TFA, wrecks havoc with effective Force usage. Besides, that's changing the argument from the original one; that Rey could not figure out that skill without being taught by someone else.

I saw it as more of the lightsaber's "choice" than Rey's power. Kyber crystals are some what living and did kind of bond with Rey earlier in the movie. I didn't care much for the "mind trick" that she used to free herself and the explanation was an easy cop out for not so great writing, but it is just one datil in the whole, and over all I liked TFA.

[WebLurker]

Rey was injured as well. Kylo slammed her into a tree, she fell 5 meters and was unconscious a minute before she fought Kylo - yet she still displayed far superior abilities to Luke that had YEARS of experience.

Getting knocked in the head and blacking out in fiction is not the serious concussion-causing injury it is in real life (see the Spider-Man newspaper comics, the Pirates of the Caribbean movies, the Life is Strange: Before the Storm video game. That's a basic conceit. Luke getting mauled is treated in-story as being serious, while Rey is shown to have shaken off her wooziness by the time she grabs the saber (compare the scenes to see the difference). So, no, Rey was not injured in that scene.

Luke's "years" were just one lesson and what little he'd figured out on his own, and the only thing Force-ey thing Rey did which we've never seen used untrained in canon during that first day is the mind trick (and there's nothing in canon to say that that couldn't happen, and we know that it has happened in Legends, which is often borrowed for world building).

Ok Im going to bite: How many days/weeks/sessions did it take Luke to learn - the Basic - use of this power in the novel?

Two sessions, on different days.

Could he have overpowered the Force pull of another (weak) trained force user and move objects from 100 feet away? Or were his abilities quite limited?

He experimented with noodles. Whether he could've done more is not explained, but we do know it's possible (per Ezra's demonstration with zero lessons/practice attempts in Rebels "Droids in Distress").

Could Ezra have overpowered the Force pull of another (weak) trained force user and move objects from 100 feet away? Or were his abilities quite limited?

The force of the push (pun intended) looked comparable to the power of the pull. For what it's worth, Zeb, who was the beneficiary of the push, initially assumed it was Kanan who did it.

Can untrained people have overpowered the Force pull of another (weak) trained force user and move objects from 100 feet away? Or are the abilities quite limited?

I don't believe that has been specifically addressed, but I would presume that medichlorian counts, natural aptitudes, whether they were gifted in that power per the Ahsoka novel, and varying circumstances would affect who would win the tug of war.

Sorry BS "explanations" are BS "explanations"

Sorry, canon answers are canon answers. Heck, I don't like the answer they gave on whether Kylo Ren would repent or not, but that's still the real conclusion.

Yet these injuries didnt prevent him from slaughtering Finn - a supposedly trained Stormtrooper who wasnt suffering from a concussion by beeing slammed into a tree and falling 5 meters.

Notice how he gets tagged first and is especially winded after taking Finn down (as seen by how he was struggling to grab the saber and had a weak grip on it when he did). Look, it's shown the longer the fight goes on, the worse Kylo gets and that, per usual fiction conceits, Rey did not have a concussion. Those facts are not up for debate.

More than Rey.

But way less then Anakin and other prequel Padawans, who seem to be the yardstick you're using for this sort of thing.

Only when you close your eyes during the scene she does it.

Funny how I'm the only once citing specific canon sources and examples, some of which were even created long before TFA was made.

Jedi Master Yoda had more problems with lifting an X Wing - or the thing Dooku threw at Obi Wan and Anakin than Rey had Lifting 50 Tons of rocks- However he had like 850 years of Training - she knew about the Force since 5 days - had no Training and was pulling her powers out of her ass.

Do I really need to cite the Ahsoka novel again or the fact that telekinesis has been shown to be an "untrained use" power, much less the Rey had been shown to be able to do it before the rock stunt? (Also, don't recall Yoda having "problems" with the X-Wing and would need to compare to guess if the pillar was heavier or not.)

So you criticise Luke for having not enough training - but at the same time praise Rey that has no training at all - really?
You criticise Vader for beeing taken completely off guard by Lukes sudden outburst of Power - but make up excuses why Red constantly kicks Kylos ass - really?

No, I am criticizing you for arguing that Rey hasn't had enough training, but praising Luke for performing feats while being undertrained; e.g. why do you have a problem with one and not the other? Agree or disagree as you will, but get it right. (Also, how the frack could you read what I'd written and think I'd said the exact opposite?)

[Celestialbeyonder]

Well since the best arguments failed to convince you - a further discussion seems pointless. Instead a question: If Rey isnt overpowered and isnt displaying a ridiculous amount of plot armour - like reaching the Level of a Jedi Master within a week without any training - What abilities would Rey have had to display in the first two movies - for you to admit that she indeed was overpowered and that shee indeed was pulling her abilities out her ass without any training?

[WebLurker]

Well since the best arguments failed to convince you - a further discussion seems pointless.

I see.

Instead a question: If Rey isnt overpowered and isnt displaying a ridiculous amount of plot armour - like reaching the Level of a Jedi Master within a week without any training - What abilities would Rey have had to display in the first two movies - for you to admit that she indeed was overpowered and that shee indeed was pulling her abilities out her ass without any training?

The healing trick from TROS, for one. Battle meditation. Advanced saber forms. Just about anything we have good reason to believe needs more then a connection to the Force and all that. Tricky thing is, the franchise has always been changing the rules on that.

[Starter Set]

What bother me more about Rey is how much of a dirty ingrate she is.

Her parents died for her.

Yet, she doesn't give a single fck of that and go calling herself a Skywalker.

Wahoo girl, that's cold as Hoth.

[Celestialbeyonder]

Just about anything we have good reason to believe needs more then a connection to the Force and all that. Tricky thing is, the franchise has always been changing the rules on that.

The franchise has been pretty consistent - in both "Legends" and the Disney Canon - that people need training to utilize their force powers to the fullest. Even if they use/discover a force ability by accident - they need to hone their skills with training in order to increase the effect of the ability.

Rey has almost 0 Training/skill honing during the first movies. Besides a few hours talking with Luke and swinging her lightsaber for a few minutes, she doesnt do anything to hone/sharpen/train her miraculously easy comming powers. Except her lightsaber swinging, she doesnt even have time to squeeze in a traning session of her own - there is simply no time for this during the parts of the movies we dont see her.

You try to excuse her Jedi Master Level Marey Sueness by claiming that all her powers are low level skills - Yet if defeating highly specialised anti Jedi Praetorians - matching the Force Pull Power of a trained and experienced Force user and managing to lift more weight with the Force than even Grand Master Yoda - LESS THAN A WEEK after discovering her powers - is considered "low level skill", then I have to ask myself how ar all these high Level Jedi Knights/Masters displaying inferior feats to her - are defeated/threatened by far weaker challanges than Rey?

Come to think of it - no one ever showed her how to levitate objects with the force - like 50 tons of rocks - another power she miraculously learned along the way?

[godisawesome]

What bother me more about Rey is how much of a dirty ingrate she is.

Her parents died for her.

Yet, she doesn't give a single fck of that and go calling herself a Skywalker.

Wahoo girl, that's cold as Hoth.

Rey got hit pretty hard by an almost “multiple personality disorder” of different characterizations, priorities, and relationships... and one of the weirdest aspects of that is that I’m seeing poeple call Rey ungrateful, but from wildly different perspectives that kind of highlight the lack of direction she has.

There’s been Finn fans who think she treated him like dirt for denying he knew her and leaving a healed Kylo within Force choking distance of him, there’s complaints about her taking the Skywalker name instead of defending her parents’, when the Skywalkers are just as dirty if a legacy and just have better PR, and there’s a few predictably upset Reylo/Ben fans who are angry she didn’t spend more time grieving over her abusive ex-boyfriend.

Each crowd usually has some kind of grievance against the story idea behind Rey’s actions, usually spawned from one movie and absent or handicapped by another.

In contrast, Kylo’s story is simple, straightforward, and shallow. He’s a turd who feels bad about being evil but thinks the answer is to be more evil, has no redeeming features, but has the right parents to get a redemption arc regardless.

I think that maybe part of the reason Rey’s power set is so noticeable in a holistic view - everything else about her in three films is largely inconsistent (even in training; Abrams clearly wanted her to have trained between TROS and TLJ, while Johnson seems to think it was superfluous). Kylo’s powerset actually does match hers pretty easily, especially when you take into account freezing the blaster bolt in midair and raising Rey from the dead, but his development is almost literally taboo to the ST, so the only real difference between him and Rey on that point is he’s already at the point Fey is supposed to reach, and therefore couldn’t have *that* part of his development botched.

The contrast bites him as well, though. A lot of Rey’s problems come from people trying to give her depth and arguing about it. Kylo/Ben’s innate shallowness comes from a lot of people thinking he’s a beautiful butterfly of a character just the way he is, and therefore never making him more than a monster even as they treat him as the second coming of Anakin.

So which fan fiction type f character is worse? The schizophrenic one in the “continue the story from the previous dude’s part” one, or the “world revolves around them no matter how pathetic they are” one?

[WebLurker]

The franchise has been pretty consistent - in both "Legends" and the Disney Canon - that people need training to utilize their force powers to the fullest. Even if they use/discover a force ability by accident - they need to hone their skills with training in order to increase the effect of the ability.

Except that Luke graduated despite having nowhere near the ten years his father needed, the fact that new powers are being introduced in almost every movie (sometimes with the idea that an experienced user is doing them, sometimes not).

Rey has almost 0 Training/skill honing during the first movies. Besides a few hours talking with Luke and swinging her lightsaber for a few minutes, she doesnt do anything to hone/sharpen/train her miraculously easy comming powers. Except her lightsaber swinging, she doesnt even have time to squeeze in a traning session of her own - there is simply no time for this during the parts of the movies we dont see her.

You try to excuse her Jedi Master Level Marey Sueness by claiming that all her powers are low level skills - Yet if defeating highly specialised anti Jedi Praetorians - matching the Force Pull Power of a trained and experienced Force user and managing to lift more weight with the Force than even Grand Master Yoda - LESS THAN A WEEK after discovering her powers - is considered "low level skill", then I have to ask myself how ar all these high Level Jedi Knights/Masters displaying inferior feats to her - are defeated/threatened by far weaker challanges than Rey?

It's shown time and again in those first two movies that Rey is powerless against fully trained Force users who are at full health, with her only victory being a conditional one against a badly injured Kylo. As far as the Guards, she does have melee experience to draw on beyond what little she knew about the Force. By the time of TROS, she has been fully trained (and still only beats Kylo by striking when he's distracted). All this is stuff you have to ignore for the Mary Sue theory to work.

Come to think of it - no one ever showed her how to levitate objects with the force - like 50 tons of rocks - another power she miraculously learned along the way?

Just like Luke in ESB. (Also like Luke with the Force choke in ROTJ). It's a dead horse, let it lie.

[Starter Set]

Just like Luke in ESB

Only thing Luke makes fly before his training is his own lightsaber and he has troubles even doing that.

You compare that to Rey lifting tons of rocks? Really? Something even Yoda would have trouble to do by the way.

[WebLurker]

Only thing Luke makes fly before his training is his own lightsaber and he has troubles even doing that.

You compare that to Rey lifting tons of rocks? Really? Something even Yoda would have trouble to do by the way.

Wasn't thinking about the rocks, actually. The point is, it's somehow okay for Luke to learn a skill all on his own, but when Rey pulls the same stunt in TFA with the same skill, it's somehow wrong. I find that very interesting, esp. since, as I've pointed out again and again, a lot of this stuff is in line with what's come before.