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  1. #1
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Default DC's mid tier (powerwise) heroes are kind of lacking.

    DC seems to be lacking in mid tier superheroes. To use a boxing analogy, when it comes to DC it seems you are either dealing with god tier (super heavy weight) characters, of street level (flyweight) characters. The characters who are some where in-between seem to be poorly developed heavy weights that are assumed to be middleweights because they job so much to the more popular heavy weights, or popular feather weights that are overwritten to seem to be way more powerful then they have any business being given their powerset. In the worse case scenario, this can lead to some very eye rolling story developments(Deathstroke somehow nailing a speedster in Identity Crisis) . DC seems to have an opening in their pantheon for some well written middleweight superheroes and villains. heroes that aren't mountain movers, but aren't peak human vigilantes either. They need a Spiderman or Wolverine level hero to really pop.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    DC seems to be lacking in mid tier superheroes. To use a boxing analogy, when it comes to DC it seems you are either dealing with god tier (super heavy weight) characters, of street level (flyweight) characters. The characters who are some where in-between seem to be poorly developed heavy weights that are assumed to be middleweights because they job so much to the more popular heavy weights, or popular feather weights that are overwritten to seem to be way more powerful then they have any business being given their powerset. In the worse case scenario, this can lead to some very eye rolling story developments(Deathstroke somehow nailing a speedster in Identity Crisis) . DC seems to have an opening in their pantheon for some well written middleweight superheroes and villains. heroes that aren't mountain movers, but aren't peak human vigilantes either. They need a Spiderman or Wolverine level hero to really pop.
    Yep; I agree.

    Marvel seems to do a better job with the middle tier.

  3. #3
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    popular feather weights that are overwritten to seem to be way more powerful then they have any business being given their powerset. In the worse case scenario, this can lead to some very eye rolling story developments(Deathstroke somehow nailing a speedster in Identity Crisis)
    Definitely something that bugs me.

    DC seems to have an opening in their pantheon for some well written middleweight superheroes and villains. heroes that aren't mountain movers, but aren't peak human vigilantes either.
    Well, I think they've had some in the past. But for many (at least here), you'll find their fans clamoring for them to be more powerful. Though I suppose DC not using them well as middleweight is part of that (most of the ones I can think of are or were team heroes that have since lost their teams). That, and the idea that many have that if one is not god-like and does not wear a Bat, then one is solidly second-tier (unworthy of JLA membership, general respect in hero community, etc.).
    Last edited by Tzigone; 04-01-2020 at 03:54 PM.

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Definitely something that bugs me.

    Well, I think they've had some in the past. But for many (at least here), you'll find their fans clamoring for them to be more powerful. Though I suppose DC not using them well as middleweight is part of that (most of the ones I can think of are or were team heroes that have since lost their teams). That, and the idea that many have that if one is not god-like and does not wear a Bat, then one is solidly second-tier (unworthy of JLA membership, general respect in hero community, etc.).
    But More powerful doesn't mean more interesting though? In fact I'd argue the more powerful a character is the harder they are to write competently for long stretches. Their is a reason why Batman seems to have year after year of good runs, But Superman is very hit and miss.

  5. #5
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    Okay, so who are DC's mid-tier heroes?

    Hourman? Sand? Jaime Reyes? Stargirl? Vixen? Animal Man? Starfire? Beast Boy? Who else might be?

  6. #6
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    But More powerful doesn't mean more interesting though?
    I agree. But in almost every appreciation thread I look into, I see voices clamoring to make the character more powerful.

    Hourman? Sand? Jaime Reyes? Stargirl? Vixen? Animal Man? Starfire? Beast Boy? Who else might be?
    I'd have said at one time that the Atom, Fire, Ice, and maybe Cyborg and the Hawks (power ups happen). Not sure about Jaime after how his first arc ended with him almost time traveling. As a rookie, it works, but it seems to me pretty high-tier power level. Most sadly neglected, though they did make an effort with with some of them.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 04-01-2020 at 05:01 PM.

  7. #7
    Mighty Member Riv86672's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I agree. But in almost every appreciation thread I look into, I see voices clamoring to make the character more powerful.
    ^^^Same. Meh.

    DCs focus, either organically or by design is focused on street level (spearheaded by Batman characters) and top tier (who all line up behind Superman).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I agree. But in almost every appreciation thread I look into, I see voices clamoring to make the character more powerful.

    I'd have said at one time that the Atom, Fire, Ice, and maybe Cyborg and the Hawks (power ups happen). Not sure about Jaime after how his first arc ended with him almost time traveling. As a rookie, it works, but it seems to me pretty high-tier power level. Most sadly neglected, though they did make an effort with with some of them.
    Cyborg is high tier with his Mother Box, even if DC writes him as a jobber.

    Jamie is low tier with potential to high tier due to Reach tech.

    Hawks, Fire and Ice are mid tier.

    Most characters with elemental power are mid tier with potential to be high tier of writers were a bit more creative with their powersets.

    The only high tier elemental characters in DC are Black Lightning, Poison Ivy, Swamp Thing, Killer Frost and Geo Force (if/when DC remembers he exists)

  9. #9
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Hmph. Are we talking about anyone specific here?

    I mean... >_>) who are the example of middle weight heroes?

    One of the things I kept thinking was... "If I suggest someone as such, will someone show up waving receipts in my face about how powerful X character "Really Is"

    Right now, I feel like I'd read "Leviathan" if it was an ongoing espionage book like shield or Wildcats with Mark Shaw directing. Thats just me.


    Aside from personal preferences like that though... the existence of "Justice Something" has a great and polarizing effect on superhumans.

    If youre a mid-weight in a big city you almost have to get the approval of the justice groups to keep operating. Not directly but... once you get noticed but either good deeds or failures.

    You're going to get approached by someone, and that someone is most likely a representative of "The Bat" or "The Alien" and depending on what job you've done and/or how you've done it.

    They're either going to toss you a justice league transpoder... or... tell you to "cut that shit out/we're gonna train(annex) you"

    Hmph... Constantine. even Constantine is on justice league dark. Even the blue beetle (who may be more powerful that I think (not important), I'm adding him because he had is own city in the SW) was with the titans.

    I think tacitcally its hard to do what we're talking about. The dc universe ISN'T the JLU cartoon specifically, but practically its really hard for a mid-tier to stay isolated and independant.

    The net result of that is... as soon as the villian of your story gets to big or popular THEY get annexed, and IDK: Deathstroke starts fighting the league or Wonderwoman breaks Max Lords neck.


    EDIT: A lot got written while I was writing this. FFS. Mine was going to be the 5th post here.

    EDIT 2:
    The only high tier elemental characters in DC are Black Lightning, Poison Ivy, Swamp Thing, Killer Frost and Geo Force (if/when DC remembers he exists)
    Firestorm and Red Tornado are Elementals that are high tier IIRC
    Last edited by Midnight_v; 04-01-2020 at 05:21 PM.
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    Everything else is irrelevant.

  10. #10
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Cyborg is high tier with his Mother Box, even if DC writes him as a jobber.
    Which is why I had "at one time" and referenced power ups happening. I was thinking of his pre-52 power level. That I liked (not the same man-or-machine story being told over and over, but that keeps happening even with new power). But I'm on record as not reaching for higher powers for everyone.

    If youre a mid-weight in a big city you almost have to get the approval of the justice groups to keep operating. Not directly but... once you get noticed but either good deeds or failures.
    Which I really, really dislike. All those heroes that got to make their own choices without anyone's interference (JSA was still on another earth) sort of deny the same independence and freedom to new heroes. I do not like that new heroes have to get approval, lessons, and/or chastisement from the old guard to deemed fit to operate.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 04-01-2020 at 05:25 PM.

  11. #11
    Mighty Member LifeIsILL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achilles View Post
    Okay, so who are DC's mid-tier heroes?

    Hourman? Sand? Jaime Reyes? Stargirl? Vixen? Animal Man? Starfire? Beast Boy? Who else might be?
    Animal Man is definitely top-tier.

    But I would say Karate Kid, Ultra Boy, Grace Choi, Black Lightning, Static Shock, Lightning Lad etc...

    Maybe DC should make Wonder Woman mid-tier, she seems like a flexible character that can work in all kinds of stories.

  12. #12
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LifeIsILL View Post
    Animal Man is definitely top-tier.

    But I would say Karate Kid, Ultra Boy, Grace Choi, Black Lightning, Static Shock, Lightning Lad etc...

    Maybe DC should make Wonder Woman mid-tier, she seems like a flexible character that can work in all kinds of stories.
    You have no idea how angry hearing that suggestion would make some people. In her forums its more like "can we establish that WW is stronger that superman" quite often.
    So there has to be someone else.
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by LifeIsILL View Post
    Animal Man is definitely top-tier.

    But I would say Karate Kid, Ultra Boy, Grace Choi, Black Lightning, Static Shock, Lightning Lad etc...

    Maybe DC should make Wonder Woman mid-tier, she seems like a flexible character that can work in all kinds of stories.
    Don't let her fans hear you say that! They're all trying to make her more powerful than Superman, God, Zeus, and Darkseid combined. As it sometimes seems some of her writers try from time to time...

    Generally speaking though, I'd say she's very definitely high level.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    You have no idea how angry hearing that suggestion would make some people. In her forums its more like "can we establish that WW is stronger that superman" quite often.
    So there has to be someone else.
    Hahahaha! You JUST beat me too it!

  15. #15
    Mighty Member Riv86672's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    One of the things I kept thinking was... "If I suggest someone as such, will someone show up waving receipts in my face about how powerful X character "Really Is"
    Yeah, you’re def. going to get that, but it’s nitpicking.

    Mid tier characters just don’t do well at DC. They have virtually zero chance of a successful solo book.
    They -are- featured in team books. And even then those teams need to feature certain other characters in order to succeed.
    I love DC warts and all, but there are def. warts.

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