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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member MadFacedKid's Avatar
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    First character that comes to mind when i think mid-tier at DC is Hawkman. Both Hawks actually Hawkgirl, Hawkwoman. They have the weaponry to harm high tiers but they can’t physically contend, on a purely physical level with high tiers. Yet would soundly beat Street characters.

    Mid-Nighter id argue is mustier, same with Beast Boy, New52 Lobo, Bunker, Aqualad, Wonder Girl, off the top of my head atleast

  2. #47
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Yeah I know nothing about Hourman (Hour Man? Hour-Man?) outside reading his wiki entry years ago and one Robot Chicken skit. Have to ask though - why does that make him so hard to use these days?
    The concept of super-steroids making you tougher, stronger, faster and better than the average person!! He's a heck of a role model now days :P

    Honestly, i've alwasy been a big fan of Rex. Everything from his power set to costume to time limit weakness I always loved... but I'm surprised even Captain America has somehow survived the super-steroid origin in today's climate.

  3. #48
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    Tiers:

    Top - Superman
    Mid - Spiderman
    Low - Batman

    DC may have Mid tiers...but they don't seem to be able to have them hold their own titles.

    Marvel, obviously by the example, can do that with success.
    Last edited by scary harpy; 04-02-2020 at 07:37 PM. Reason: forgot a word...

  4. #49
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    Tiers:

    Top - Superman
    Mid - Spiderman
    Low - Batman

    DC may have Mid tiers...but they don't seem to be able to have hold their own titles.

    Marvel, obviously by the example, can do that with success.
    Spidey's a weird one... He's pretty much whatever Tier the writer wants him to be. Fighting juggernaut... sure... Fighting A fat crime boss... Sure. get smacked around by both?? Why not... He's the only guy I really know that can take out Firelord but not Punisher... He can equally team up with Daredevil or Thor... He's whatever he needs to be.

  5. #50
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Spidey's a weird one... He's pretty much whatever Tier the writer wants him to be. Fighting juggernaut... sure... Fighting A fat crime boss... Sure. get smacked around by both?? Why not... He's the only guy I really know that can take out Firelord but not Punisher... He can equally team up with Daredevil or Thor... He's whatever he needs to be.
    In other words he's mid tier. He's powerful enough to that he isn't steam rolled by powerful characters, but weak enough that low tier characters might be able score a win against him on their best day.

  6. #51
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Yeah I know nothing about Hourman (Hour Man? Hour-Man?) outside reading his wiki entry years ago and one Robot Chicken skit. Have to ask though - why does that make him so hard to use these days?
    He uses a drug that gives him super powers. That is not gonna fly for a superhero when the country is dealing with an opioid crisis.

    But I think a Vertigo/Black Label style series would be f*cking amazing for Hourman.

    The addiction thing was tackled some back in the day, and I suppose for main continuity comics at the time it handled the topic well enough (I didn't read most of it so I can't say) but a deep dive into Hourman that only Black Label can provide? Could be one of those books you recommend forty years later. Like a lot of classic Vertigo.

    But for mainstream use....it's tricky, at best.

    Imagine what a self-contained, small budget film could do? It could be DC's next Joker style success.
    Last edited by Ascended; 04-02-2020 at 08:24 PM.
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  7. #52
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    The addiction thing was tackled some back in the day, and I suppose for main continuity comics at the time it handled the topic well enough (I didn't read most of it so I can't say) but a deep dive into Hourman that only Black Label can provide? Could be one of those books you recommend forty years later. Like a lot of classic Vertigo.

    But for mainstream use....it's tricky, at best.
    I'm not sure how well it was handled really... It seemed to me back in the 90's, that rick was addicted to the drug and Rex was just avoiding it. It was more a way to acknowledge that Hourman was back in continuity with the rest of the JSA, but still keeping him off the table. When they came back in Johns' JSA series, they had 'fixed' the drug so it wasn't addictive anymore... and could be adminstered through the gauntlets. So y'know... less pill-popping. :P

    Still a fantastic character. I've always like Rex more than Rick...and something about that yellow hood is just awesome.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Well, we've established a list of mid tier guys and gals like Black Lightning, Blue Beetle, the Hawks, possibly Donna and/or Cassie, etc. The trick now might be how to improve their image and get them more well-known and used in more stories.
    I wouldnt call Mera and Blue Beetle mid tier...

    It would theoretically be no problem...
    I always had the idea that Cassandra,Bart,Conner and maybe also Tim leave their hometowns and live together in a house in Hawaii.

    So not a Solo-Title BUT a Cassandra/Conner title with the 2 as wife and husband..
    Cassandra was nice, after Conners death, when she was a Solo-Hero for some time...The battle vs Gemini was GREAT.

    Cassandra needs only to grow up (20+) (and get another outfit-more Amazon like-like her ToT Counterpart) and she can become as successfull as Black Canary for example is.

    The Injustice and the ToT Cassandra Sandsmark would be very cool as Solo-Titles..

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by achilles View Post
    Is Jade mid-tier though? She's done some impressive stuff prior to Flashpoint. Stopped a rampaging Power Girl who even Supergirl couldn't stop, (yeah, magic, but still), among other feats. Don't know myself if she is.
    Compared to Alan, Kyle, Hal, other earth lanterns and even her own brother, Jade was pretty middling tbh. She never really got to have a big moment or take on really impressive individuals by herself after Infinity Inc ended. Which when you factor Obsidian is kinda amusing since Jennie was written as one of the powerhouses of II a la Alan while Todd mostly just got intangible, punched people, and did his inner darkness thing on bad guys. But after II ended she mostly seemed to play girlfriend, daddy's girl, good sister, and team roster filler which character wise is ok I guess (esp compared to Obsidian who went nuts/got controlled and tried to kill his dad and everybody, all those feats of his aside??) but makes for lackluster feats.

    The GL/Sentinel mini was the closest she got to a big moment but she lost her powers instead, but Robinson's JLA probably would've done more with her and elevated her (I think that's where the Power Girl feat comes from) had new 52 not happened.

  10. #55
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    The concept of super-steroids making you tougher, stronger, faster and better than the average person!! He's a heck of a role model now days :P

    Honestly, i've alwasy been a big fan of Rex. Everything from his power set to costume to time limit weakness I always loved... but I'm surprised even Captain America has somehow survived the super-steroid origin in today's climate.
    Just don't compare it to steroids then. Some kind of super vitamin perhaps, an insanely powerful nootropic, any other non-addictive non-harmful drug. Or again, if that doesn't work lean into the unhealthy/addictive idea and make it a story line or plot point people can relate too. Add layers of complexity to it. It's not some taboo subject, you can tackle these issues in superhero fiction these days and have a great story and character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    He uses a drug that gives him super powers. That is not gonna fly for a superhero when the country is dealing with an opioid crisis.

    But I think a Vertigo/Black Label style series would be f*cking amazing for Hourman.

    The addiction thing was tackled some back in the day, and I suppose for main continuity comics at the time it handled the topic well enough (I didn't read most of it so I can't say) but a deep dive into Hourman that only Black Label can provide? Could be one of those books you recommend forty years later. Like a lot of classic Vertigo.

    But for mainstream use....it's tricky, at best.

    Imagine what a self-contained, small budget film could do? It could be DC's next Joker style success.
    I don't think it's too tricky for mainstream use, not in this day and age. Either downplay the druggy aspects or associate it with other non-addictive drugs to create distance, or put a writer on it who can handle the issues with nuance and tact. I'd argue during an opioid crisis is the perfect time for such a character and hero - he's never been more relevant topic-wise.

    Also he's not a character with an ongoing title I'm aware of, and probably can't hold his own title without somehow being attached to either a guy wearing a bat or an s, so a miniseries, Black Label or otherwise, would be perfect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    I wouldnt call Mera and Blue Beetle mid tier...

    It would theoretically be no problem...
    I always had the idea that Cassandra,Bart,Conner and maybe also Tim leave their hometowns and live together in a house in Hawaii.

    So not a Solo-Title BUT a Cassandra/Conner title with the 2 as wife and husband..
    Cassandra was nice, after Conners death, when she was a Solo-Hero for some time...The battle vs Gemini was GREAT.

    Cassandra needs only to grow up (20+) (and get another outfit-more Amazon like-like her ToT Counterpart) and she can become as successfull as Black Canary for example is.

    The Injustice and the ToT Cassandra Sandsmark would be very cool as Solo-Titles..
    I don't really know these characters that well, but sounds good.

  11. #56
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Just don't compare it to steroids then. Some kind of super vitamin perhaps, an insanely powerful nootropic, any other non-addictive non-harmful drug. Or again, if that doesn't work lean into the unhealthy/addictive idea and make it a story line or plot point people can relate too. Add layers of complexity to it. It's not some taboo subject, you can tackle these issues in superhero fiction these days and have a great story and character.
    You "can" get a great story out of it. There's mountains of potential in Hourman. But the question is; could *DC* get a great story out of it?

    It's topical, but I don't know if you could distance Miraclo from harmful drugs enough to avoid a lot of negative PR. Especially when Miraclo is shown to be a harmful drug already. I mean, certain groups will rant and rave about a development in comics without actually knowing anything about the story (1 Million Moms for example) but despite their ignorance they still get enough air time to make their voices heard. Given how DC reacted to the negative PR of Bat-penis I don't see them having the balls to use Hourman in any substantial way.

    A Black Label mini could be fantastic. It really could, and maybe DC would be brave enough to try it if they got the right people together. But I don't see them doing it.
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  12. #57
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    Ralph Dibny takes Gingold to get his Elongated-Man powers.

    How is this different from Hourman?

  13. #58
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    Ralph Dibny takes Gingold to get his Elongated-Man powers.

    How is this different from Hourman?
    Is that even still canon anymore? I forgot all about that.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

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  14. #59
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I don't think Mr Terrific would qualify since he doesn't have powers.

    There's also Kate Spencer (if you believe she's a metahuman), Silencer, the Wildcats and the Hawks.



    No one has ever stated making her stronger than Superman.


    Also, I made a thread for this type of thing so maybe you can find those types of characters there.

    https://community.cbr.com/showthread...s-Appreciation
    Its embarrassing and obnoxious to read when you make absolutist statements like that... I mean... google is your friend.

    https://community.cbr.com/showthread...-than-Superman

    Yeah, you’re def. going to get that, but it’s nitpicking.

    Mid tier characters just don’t do well at DC. They have virtually zero chance of a successful solo book.
    They -are- featured in team books. And even then those teams need to feature certain other characters in order to succeed.
    I love DC warts and all, but there are def. warts.
    I know Mr.Miracle isn't mid tier but that tom king run kind of illustrates that slice of life characters can work at least.
    Last edited by Midnight_v; 04-04-2020 at 11:35 PM.
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  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    You have no idea how angry hearing that suggestion would make some people. In her forums its more like "can we establish that WW is stronger that superman" quite often.
    So there has to be someone else.
    I always liked the idea that Batman and Superman both were like, a 10 out of 10, respectively on the scale of 'skilled hero' vs. 'powered hero,' while Diana was not as skilled as Batman, or as powerful as Superman, but was better balanced than either of them, being like an 8/8, with much more raw power than Batman, and much more combat skill / training than Superman. But yeah, that argument falls flat when others are insisting that Diana has to be 1/1 equal to Superman, for whatever reason.

    Same with characters like Vixen. I love that she's vastly stronger than Batman, able to channel the physical strength of an elephant, or even a blue whale, but others are insisting that she has weird alien 'animal' powers, or can channel the strength of 100 elephants, or the proportional strength of a mantis shrimp, or some other (IMO) unnecessary nonsense like that. Being as strong as a whale is *plenty* strong, IMO, and not every super-strong person needs to be compared to how strong they are compared to Superman (who, honestly, breaks the bar, and should serve as a comparison to *no one*). In fact, I feel like limiting the characters raw power opens up the number of stories available to them, and the number of threats / challenges they can be put against.

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