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  1. #61
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    I always liked the idea that Batman and Superman both were like, a 10 out of 10, respectively on the scale of 'skilled hero' vs. 'powered hero,' while Diana was not as skilled as Batman, or as powerful as Superman, but was better balanced than either of them, being like an 8/8, with much more raw power than Batman, and much more combat skill / training than Superman. But yeah, that argument falls flat when others are insisting that Diana has to be 1/1 equal to Superman, for whatever reason.

    Same with characters like Vixen. I love that she's vastly stronger than Batman, able to channel the physical strength of an elephant, or even a blue whale, but others are insisting that she has weird alien 'animal' powers, or can channel the strength of 100 elephants, or the proportional strength of a mantis shrimp, or some other (IMO) unnecessary nonsense like that. Being as strong as a whale is *plenty* strong, IMO, and not every super-strong person needs to be compared to how strong they are compared to Superman (who, honestly, breaks the bar, and should serve as a comparison to *no one*). In fact, I feel like limiting the characters raw power opens up the number of stories available to them, and the number of threats / challenges they can be put against.
    I'm in full agreement with most if not all your points. The Trinity really complement each other when its allowed, and it shouldn't even BE a comparison. People sometimes just want to say "My dad can beat up your dad" and they never grow out of it fully.

    I like that interpretation of Diana too, but to many people she's a planet tipper et.all. huh... brb.
    Last edited by Midnight_v; 04-05-2020 at 12:58 AM.
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    Its embarrassing and obnoxious to read when you make absolutist statements like that... I mean... google is your friend.

    https://community.cbr.com/showthread...-than-Superman

    Yeah, you’re def. going to get that, but it’s nitpicking.
    The very first response on that thread says she should not be stronger than him and the votes are overwhelmingly in favor of her either being weaker than him or simply his equal. There's more paranoia over Wonder Woman being stronger than Superman than anyone actually desiring it. But yeah, I'm the one making absolutist statements.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 04-05-2020 at 12:48 AM.

  3. #63
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The very first response on that thread says she should not be stronger than him and the votes are overwhelmingly in favor of her either being weaker than him or simply his equal. There's more paranoia over Wonder Woman being stronger than Superman than anyone actually desiring it. But yeah, I'm the one making absolutist statements.
    Yeah you really are... that what
    "No one has ever stated making her stronger than Superman." literally is, because someone totally has, which is why your statement is so wrong.
    That being said... I'll move on to something relevant.
    I always liked the idea that Batman and Superman both were like, a 10 out of 10, respectively on the scale of 'skilled hero' vs. 'powered hero,' while Diana was not as skilled as Batman, or as powerful as Superman, but was better balanced than either of them, being like an 8/8, with much more raw power than Batman, and much more combat skill / training than Superman. But yeah, that argument falls flat when others are insisting that Diana has to be 1/1 equal to Superman, for whatever reason.

    Same with characters like Vixen. I love that she's vastly stronger than Batman, able to channel the physical strength of an elephant, or even a blue whale, but others are insisting that she has weird alien 'animal' powers, or can channel the strength of 100 elephants, or the proportional strength of a mantis shrimp, or some other (IMO) unnecessary nonsense like that. Being as strong as a whale is *plenty* strong, IMO, and not every super-strong person needs to be compared to how strong they are compared to Superman (who, honestly, breaks the bar, and should serve as a comparison to *no one*). In fact, I feel like limiting the characters raw power opens up the number of stories available to them, and the number of threats / challenges they can be put against.
    If I'm honest Diana has magic so she's a threat to superman, and many threats in general, but lots of people remember her as needing the invisible plane and he bracelets, but she has had that sword that cuts through atoms etc but she's a god even if 4th world overgod like Darkseid so the fact is that her fans would see her being depicted as a mid-tier hero as regression. I think most people would feel that way if it was their favorite. So the important take away is that she's not mid-tier

    I think there's also something about being on the league in DC, because like it or not they're depicted as the DC Comicsverse defacto "gods" so sitting up there its logical for people to want a reason for XYZ to be there next to superman.
    Vixen falls into that in my opinion, but to be fair she has the same powers *effectively* as animal man and he's ... pretty ridiculous but you're right. On some level its just "my daddy can beat up your daddy" logic and that's not very productive. Whats really needed isn't "Moar Powah!" whats needed is incredibly well written memorable runs. The truth is Swamp thing and the vertigo lot weren't really all that popular till the British invasions in comics but it changed everything for the better. That's not just vixen that's ANY character.

    The thing is... I believe there's a lot of narrative room in the universe for mid-tier characters in DC. The justice league can't be everywhere (even though like I mentioned above, their agents will reach out no and try to get you to join the gang/stop you).
    Finally, there are writers who could make it a thing for as long as they're on a book and if you run HOT with those writers like back to back you've got a working property.

    Ed Brubaker writing Leviathan/Manhunters (my personal off hand choice... add in yours) followed by another writer known for their good work on a mid-tier character can make it work.
    Last edited by Midnight_v; 04-05-2020 at 01:53 AM.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    Yeah you really are... that what
    "No one has ever stated making her stronger than Superman." literally is, because someone totally has, which is why your statement is so wrong.
    Again, a thread from the WW forums which was overwhelmingly in favor of her not being more powerful than Superman. Your original comment was as absolutist as mine. Arguably even more so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    You have no idea how angry hearing that suggestion would make some people. In her forums its more like "can we establish that WW is stronger that superman" quite often.
    So there has to be someone else.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 04-05-2020 at 01:54 AM.

  5. #65
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Again, a thread from the WW forums which was overwhelmingly in favor of her not being more powerful than Superman. Your original comment was as absolutist as mine. Arguably even more so.
    "Some people" vs ""No one has ever stated making her stronger than Superman."
    Absolutist -relating to or supporting absolute principles. I.e. not ever, never, none. So if one person did it anywhere.... ever... you'd be wrong, but at this point why not add something to the thread other that "Nu-uh"?
    So I mean... I don't know PM your thoughts about it? Or... Don't either way its kind of getting belabored here.
    My point is WW isn't mid-tier, and I don't think it'd be a well received move overall. Do... Do you have any opinions about mid-tier heroes? How they're lacking? How that hole can be filled? Does it need to be?
    Which is really what the interest in the thread is about. Chill.
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  6. #66
    Incredible Member Lvenger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    Spider-Man and Wolverine are most definitely mid tier. They are significantly more powerful then real street level characters like Daredevil or Green Arrow. Spider-Man is the definitive mid tier hero to me. When placed with street level characters he comes across like a hard to deal with powerhouse. But when he’s pitted against real monsters like the Juggernaut he can play the role of underdog. Wolverine has a similar thing going on. People forget Wolverine was created as an adversary for the hulk. He’s at least powerful enough to go a few rounds with a mildly annoyed Hulk, which places him well out of low tier to me.

    Two character that should be mid tier but are routinely given power ups, are Hawkman and Hawkgirl. Their is no reason why Hawkman should be duking it out with Black Adam. He’s a prime example of having the need to make a character more relevant by making them more powerful. Unfortunately writers who do this rarely put in the effort of upgrading said heroes villains so you windup with a bunch of heroes who have outpaced their villains along time ago.
    Fair enough, you're right that Peter and Logan are more powerful than street level heroes like the Hawkeye or Daredevil who rely on peak physical conditioning and mastery of fighting skills to combat their opponents. I used to debate on battle threads on another forum so I recall how powerful these two are.

    The Hawks are some of those inconsistent characters who can struggle fighting street level villains yet also slug it out with the heavy hitters of the DCU. Hawkman even knocked Superman on his behind thanks to the Claw of Horus and in Snyder's JL run, Hawkgirl has beaten Lex Luthor in his warsuit and somehow survived attacks from the freaking Anti Monitor. That is some BS power levels right there.

  7. #67
    Incredible Member Lvenger's Avatar
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    Wonder Woman is definitely not a mid tier hero by any means, she's a heavy hitter in terms of her power level. On the other hand, the outcome of most of the Mind controlled Superman vs Wonder Woman fights show Clark is a level above Diana in terms of strength, speed and raw power when he's not holding back. Wonder Woman vol 2 #175, JLA: A League of One and Sacrifice to name a few demonstrated Superman holds the edge over Wonder Woman in a direct confrontation.

  8. #68
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    When I started reading DC again after a long, long break I mostly did it by reading old Hawkman stories..material from the Shadow War series on.

    I’d say based on the feats I saw in a lot of his solo comics he is definitely mid tier (maybe he gets ramped up in JL material? Don’t know because I don’t like typical modern JL, so almost never read it)...and it worked in terms of the stories being fun to read.

    What would a mid tier hero take to be a big sales success for DC?

    I’d argue..a great creative team and a big push from DC. Deep down I don’t think it will happen..because if you write a mid tier hero logically they wipe the floor with all the Bat family heroes. DC won’t allow that.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by achilles View Post
    Okay, so who are DC's mid-tier heroes?

    Hourman? Sand? Jaime Reyes? Stargirl? Vixen? Animal Man? Starfire? Beast Boy? Who else might be?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I agree. But in almost every appreciation thread I look into, I see voices clamoring to make the character more powerful.

    I'd have said at one time that the Atom, Fire, Ice, and maybe Cyborg and the Hawks (power ups happen). Not sure about Jaime after how his first arc ended with him almost time traveling. As a rookie, it works, but it seems to me pretty high-tier power level. Most sadly neglected, though they did make an effort with with some of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    Cyborg is high tier with his Mother Box, even if DC writes him as a jobber.

    Jamie is low tier with potential to high tier due to Reach tech.

    Hawks, Fire and Ice are mid tier.

    Most characters with elemental power are mid tier with potential to be high tier of writers were a bit more creative with their powersets.

    The only high tier elemental characters in DC are Black Lightning, Poison Ivy, Swamp Thing, Killer Frost and Geo Force (if/when DC remembers he exists)
    Quote Originally Posted by LifeIsILL View Post
    Animal Man is definitely top-tier.

    But I would say Karate Kid, Ultra Boy, Grace Choi, Black Lightning, Static Shock, Lightning Lad etc...

    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    Cassie, Donna and Artemis already fill the mid tier Amazon warrior niche..
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Rider View Post
    To add to that, Mr. Miracle, Metamorpho, Mr. Terrific, Static Shock, Stargirl, Hawk & Dove, Hourman.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lvenger View Post
    I agree that DC are lacking in prominent mid tier heroes though I disagree that Spider-Man and Wolverine are mid tier heroes. Most of their stories involve dealing with street level threats though they can handle bigger problems when faced with them. The most notable mid tier DC heroes that come to mind are Cyborg, Black Lightning, Geo-Force, Vixen, Jaime Reyes, Fire and Ice, Hawk and Dove, Metamorpho, Starfire and Donna Troy.
    Are we coming to any agreement on who DC's mid-tier heroes are?

    I know we can agree DC seems to have a difficult time promoting them.

  10. #70
    Mighty Member Iconic's Avatar
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    Current comic book Cyborg isnít mid-tier. 1980ís Cyborg may have been, but 2000ís Vic is upper-tier in terms of power. DCAU Cyborg is clearly upper-tier. Even Young Justice Outsiders Cyborg is on his way towards being upper-tier.

  11. #71
    Mighty Member MoneySpider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    Same with characters like Vixen. I love that she's vastly stronger than Batman, able to channel the physical strength of an elephant, or even a blue whale, but others are insisting that she has weird alien 'animal' powers, or can channel the strength of 100 elephants, or the proportional strength of a mantis shrimp, or some other (IMO) unnecessary nonsense like that. Being as strong as a whale is *plenty* strong, IMO, and not every super-strong person needs to be compared to how strong they are compared to Superman (who, honestly, breaks the bar, and should serve as a comparison to *no one*). In fact, I feel like limiting the characters raw power opens up the number of stories available to them, and the number of threats / challenges they can be put against.
    Why do you think all of that is "unnecessary nonsense"? As an Animal Master, all of the things you listed about Vixen should be things she can do, if she wanted to, given the nature of her powers and her powers being based in magic. Also, some of these things you mentioned are a lot more interesting in theory than what a lot of comic book writers have ever shown her doing, which is probably why so many comic book readers seem to think Vixen is a "lesser" Animal Man.

    In my opinion, possibly showing Vixen channeling the strength of 100 elephants (which in essence is basically combining animal abilities, which she can do and has been shown to do) is a lot more appealing than showing her using the strength of just one elephant for the umpteenth time, or showing her using the abilities of a gorilla for the thousandth time (like they did in the "Legends of Tomorrow" TV show a few years ago). To me, the stuff you mentioned is just showing creativity with Vixen's powers, which is something not many writers (comic book writers or TV writers) do.
    Last edited by MoneySpider; 04-05-2020 at 08:02 PM.
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  12. #72
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I don't need Vixen tapping into "alien animal" powers, or tapping into the "human" animal, or any of that.

    But what I do want to see is Vixen tapping into stuff a little more interesting and powerful than the lazy crap writers usually do. Elephants and apes, blah. Boring! How about that Pink Floyd shrimp thing, that creates a little shockwave by snapping its claw or whatever it does? There's some crazy animals out there that Mari (and Buddy for that matter) could use to great effect and it doesn't take a writer that long to Google "weird animals" or something.

    I'd also like to see her chain animal abilities together faster. Usually she picks an animal (rhino, ape, cheetah, whatever) and sticks with that one animal during a fight until she gets knocked around some and loses that engagement, then switches to something else and rushes back in. I appreciate her changing tactics when "ape" doesn't work, but she should be rotating through her arsenal with every blow. Like, let her leap into a fight with kangaroo, switch in mid-air to cobra for a venom spit, blinding the enemy, go whale for a big, heavy impact landing, use that shrimp thing for a close-quarters shockwave attack, then electric eel for another kind of shock, then go rhino for some beefy body blows before using rabbit to disengage from the enemy, chameleon to hide and sneak around to a new angle before repeating the "hit-and-run" tactic with a completely different slew of animals?
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I don't need Vixen tapping into "alien animal" powers, or tapping into the "human" animal, or any of that.

    But what I do want to see is Vixen tapping into stuff a little more interesting and powerful than the lazy crap writers usually do. Elephants and apes, blah. Boring! How about that Pink Floyd shrimp thing, that creates a little shockwave by snapping its claw or whatever it does? There's some crazy animals out there that Mari (and Buddy for that matter) could use to great effect and it doesn't take a writer that long to Google "weird animals" or something.

    I'd also like to see her chain animal abilities together faster. Usually she picks an animal (rhino, ape, cheetah, whatever) and sticks with that one animal during a fight until she gets knocked around some and loses that engagement, then switches to something else and rushes back in. I appreciate her changing tactics when "ape" doesn't work, but she should be rotating through her arsenal with every blow. Like, let her leap into a fight with kangaroo, switch in mid-air to cobra for a venom spit, blinding the enemy, go whale for a big, heavy impact landing, use that shrimp thing for a close-quarters shockwave attack, then electric eel for another kind of shock, then go rhino for some beefy body blows before using rabbit to disengage from the enemy, chameleon to hide and sneak around to a new angle before repeating the "hit-and-run" tactic with a completely different slew of animals?
    Mantis Shrimp. That's what it's called, though I gotta admit, "Pink Floyd" Shrimp is what it should have been called. That'd be a hell of a power; a human with that power could probably punch through a battleship. And how about bioluminescence? Blind your opponents. I'm thinking however that there's no good way to visually depict the use of say...skunk powers, or spitting venom.

  14. #74
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    Are we coming to any agreement on who DC's mid-tier heroes are?

    I know we can agree DC seems to have a difficult time promoting them.
    I believe there's a loose consensus. Though a few polls could help solidify it.

  15. #75
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achilles View Post
    Mantis Shrimp. That's what it's called, though I gotta admit, "Pink Floyd" Shrimp is what it should have been called. That'd be a hell of a power; a human with that power could probably punch through a battleship. And how about bioluminescence? Blind your opponents. I'm thinking however that there's no good way to visually depict the use of say...skunk powers, or spitting venom.
    A quick Google gave me this:

    Synalpheus pinkfloydi, the Pink Floyd pistol shrimp, is a species of snapping shrimp in the genus Synalpheus. Described in 2017, it was named after the rock band Pink Floyd, in part because it has a distinctive "bright pink-red claw".[1][2] The sound it makes by snapping the claw shut reaches 210 decibels, and can kill nearby small fish.[3]
    Then for the mantis shrimp

    Mantis shrimps, or stomatopods, are marine crustaceans of the order Stomatopoda. Some species have specialised calcified "clubs" that can strike with great power, while others have sharp forelimbs used to capture prey.
    Not a biology guy, so maybe these are both part of the same family or whatever, I don't know.

    But yeah, either way it'd be a great power for Mari to use, and could definitely punch through a battleship. Or make a Kryptonian go deaf.

    But what do we get? "Powers of an elephant!"

    Lazy ass writers.
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