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  1. #76
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    How much dialog/text do you want explaining the lesser-known animal powers (ones the audience won't immediately understand)? I'm don't mind it, but a lot of readers don't like having things explained to them and/or don't like much non-dialog text. I see that complaint when they read older comics sometimes.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    A quick Google gave me this:



    Then for the mantis shrimp



    Not a biology guy, so maybe these are both part of the same family or whatever, I don't know.

    But yeah, either way it'd be a great power for Mari to use, and could definitely punch through a battleship. Or make a Kryptonian go deaf.

    But what do we get? "Powers of an elephant!"

    Lazy ass writers.
    About Kryptonians, they can sunbathe, which would be louder by many orders of magnitude than any sound on Earth....and yet I see them continually being stopped or bothered by sound. Makes no sense. But yeah, back to the animals. They could do all sorts of more imaginative than rhino, elephant, bear, tiger, whale. But they don't. I wonder how to depict the cuteness powers of puppies and kittens?

  3. #78
    Incredible Member Lvenger's Avatar
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    Aquaman and Cyborg are mid tiers come to think of it. Usually the League is comprised of heavy hitters but since the New 52 those two have lingered on the roster for a while now.

  4. #79
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    How much dialog/text do you want explaining the lesser-known animal powers (ones the audience won't immediately understand)? I'm don't mind it, but a lot of readers don't like having things explained to them and/or don't like much non-dialog text. I see that complaint when they read older comics sometimes.
    Eh, some people would like explanations, some wouldn't. All comes down to personal taste and how the writer tackles it. If I were writing, I'd probably just use captions to tell the reader what's up, instead of trying to work it into the dialogue or whatever, and do something like

    "caption:
    Pink Floyd shrimp.
    Synalpheus pinkfloydi
    Power: Sonic snap"

    If the artist was willing and able, and if there was enough page space, maybe I'd include a very small illustration of the animal inside the caption box, but most likely not.

    That's enough to tell the reader what animal Mari is mimicking without interrupting the flow of the story too much. If a reader is curious it gives them enough info for a credible Google. If a reader doesn't care, well it's one caption and six words that can be easily ignored.

    Would some dislike that approach? Of course. Some wouldn't like it, some would. But I'd rather have something like that than "Oh, Mari copied a rhino again. Yay."
    Last edited by Ascended; 04-06-2020 at 12:04 PM.
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  5. #80
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achilles View Post
    About Kryptonians, they can sunbathe, which would be louder by many orders of magnitude than any sound on Earth....and yet I see them continually being stopped or bothered by sound. Makes no sense. But yeah, back to the animals. They could do all sorts of more imaginative than rhino, elephant, bear, tiger, whale. But they don't. I wonder how to depict the cuteness powers of puppies and kittens?
    Is there sound in and around a star?
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  6. #81
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I don't need Vixen tapping into "alien animal" powers, or tapping into the "human" animal, or any of that.

    But what I do want to see is Vixen tapping into stuff a little more interesting and powerful than the lazy crap writers usually do. Elephants and apes, blah. Boring! How about that Pink Floyd shrimp thing, that creates a little shockwave by snapping its claw or whatever it does? There's some crazy animals out there that Mari (and Buddy for that matter) could use to great effect and it doesn't take a writer that long to Google "weird animals" or something.

    I'd also like to see her chain animal abilities together faster. Usually she picks an animal (rhino, ape, cheetah, whatever) and sticks with that one animal during a fight until she gets knocked around some and loses that engagement, then switches to something else and rushes back in. I appreciate her changing tactics when "ape" doesn't work, but she should be rotating through her arsenal with every blow. Like, let her leap into a fight with kangaroo, switch in mid-air to cobra for a venom spit, blinding the enemy, go whale for a big, heavy impact landing, use that shrimp thing for a close-quarters shockwave attack, then electric eel for another kind of shock, then go rhino for some beefy body blows before using rabbit to disengage from the enemy, chameleon to hide and sneak around to a new angle before repeating the "hit-and-run" tactic with a completely different slew of animals?
    She and the other animal mimics are also biologically immortal. Their is a type of jellyfish that can de age itself. It would be cool to see Vixen show up in the Legion or Kamandi or some other future time line with that as the explanation. When you think about it she and animal man have the most versatile power set in the DCU, and they donít have to tap into aliens and mythological creatures either. Just using animals we know exist.

    Whales/elephants: significant superhuman strength. Perhaps not to the levels of characters like Superman but well above regular human strength.

    Cheetah: Superhuman speed. Again we arenít talking Flash speed but she is well above human level.

    Electric eel: she even has an energy based attack.

    Numerous forms of poison, enhanced senses. They arenít at the top of the list as far as raw power, but the sheer number of powers they have means they are incredibly versatile.

  7. #82
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    Booster Gold! -- Mid Tier, popular enough to hold a series for a few years at a time. (Which isn't different from a lot of DC A-Listers)

    I can buy say, Guy Gardner or an inexperienced Kyle Rayner as "mid-tier". Sure they're green lanterns, but their will power can't match Hal's, so with the lack of experience, they're not capable of the same level of feats as he is yet.

    Black Canary has been shown to be solidly above "street level" at this point too, I think.

    I would also argue someone like Zatanna is "mid tier". From a gaming standpoint, Zatanna is a "glass cannon", capable of taking down almost any foe, but because she's in a frail mortal body, she also can be defeated by a street level villain from time to time.

    Almost all the Outsiders are mid tier, except Geo-Force. Black Lightning has power creeped onto the high tier probably.

    Most specialist heroes with only one basic power also fall into this category. (Many Legionnaires)

  8. #83
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    Numerous forms of poison, enhanced senses. They aren’t at the top of the list as far as raw power, but the sheer number of powers they have means they are incredibly versatile.
    I think that's the best argument for Mari being high tier. Her individual powers aren't. Those are all solidly mid-tier. Even the "proportionate power" isn't enough to reach DC's high-end power levels.

    But Mari makes up for that by the sheer volume of abilities she has. She can counter anything thrown at her. She doesn't need to be as fast as a Flash (for example); a quick burst of bio-luminescence will blind a Flash, some spider webs or venom will stall him for a second, and a super-strength sucker punch will put him down for the count. Speedster metabolism and vibration control means anything Mari does will only last moments, but that's enough. Not too shabby for someone who's powers are only mid-tier. Plenty of high-tier characters would struggle just as much, if not more, against a Flash.

    Hell, Mari could likely take on powerful telepaths as well. There are animals without a centralized nervous system or localized brain right? That might be enough to negate, or at least dull, a psychic brain blast.

    Toss her out an air lock into space? Well, can't tartigrades (is that what they're called? Really not an animal guy here) survive in space?
    Last edited by Ascended; 04-06-2020 at 11:21 AM.
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  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Is there sound in and around a star?
    Should be a lot of sound in a star's atmosphere, basically the sound of millions of nuclear explosions.

  10. #85
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by titanfan View Post
    Booster Gold! -- Mid Tier, popular enough to hold a series for a few years at a time. (Which isn't different from a lot of DC A-Listers)

    I can buy say, Guy Gardner or an inexperienced Kyle Rayner as "mid-tier". Sure they're green lanterns, but their will power can't match Hal's, so with the lack of experience, they're not capable of the same level of feats as he is yet.

    Black Canary has been shown to be solidly above "street level" at this point too, I think.

    I would also argue someone like Zatanna is "mid tier". From a gaming standpoint, Zatanna is a "glass cannon", capable of taking down almost any foe, but because she's in a frail mortal body, she also can be defeated by a street level villain from time to time.

    Almost all the Outsiders are mid tier, except Geo-Force. Black Lightning has power creeped onto the high tier probably.

    Most specialist heroes with only one basic power also fall into this category. (Many Legionnaires)
    I think writing a person selected out of billions by the Guardians as fit to wield the Universe’s most potent weapon as “mid tier” is an extraordinary stretch...it would imply amazing incompetence on the part of the Guardians. (Mind you, we’ve been there before). Similarly I feel Zatanna is a real stretch.

    Like your other suggestions.

    Only one suggestion from me. I think writing Manhunter (Kate Spencer) as mid tier would be easy. The series she was introduced in showed she was happy to use any technology she could lay her hands on, and to my mind at least confirmed she had meta gene, with increased strength, speed and agility. Ramp up that strength, speed, and agility up a notch..mission accomplished.
    Last edited by JackDaw; 04-06-2020 at 01:41 PM.

  11. #86
    Judgement Awaits LordAllMIghty's Avatar
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    What's needed here is a clear definition on what makes a hero Street, Low, Med, High and God tier character.

    Using Vixen as a example, she can take a hit from a mind controlled Superman, regenerate her entire body in seconds with the healing abilities of a flatworm, shoot lasers from her eyes, has world wide telepathy and hold her own underwater against Flashpoint Aquaman. This makes her a solid mid-tier character but what about people like Starfire (Mid?), Raven (High?), Green Arrow (Street?) and Batman (God...joking).


    I need a tier list.
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  12. #87
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Starfire (Mid?), Raven (High?), Green Arrow (Street?) and Batman (God...joking).
    For me, power only counts, not prestige or page time (at least in this thread which specifies it is about power). I don't keep up enough with character's changing power levels, and I know it. If we go through a storyline or transformation I don't like, and I quit reading the characters and only read what others say about them, so I'm in the dark.

    For me, Cyborg was a slid mid-tier character until N52. From the little I know about him now (I'm just not very interested in reading him without his Titans history, with his father still alive, etc. - might as well be a different character), he's definitely high-tier. Old-school Raven would have been mid-tier (and not that high a mid-tier as a solo hero, IMO), but I really don't know how her powers have gone since way back in the 1990s when she was dead for a while. Green Arrow is definitely street level.

    I don't really know Vixen - whenever anyone talks about her, it's always about how she should have major-league powers and how her powerset is great. Which is fine, but not enough to make me interested in the character. Power isn't the be-all, end-all - as this thread is all about how those mid-tier characters could/should be developed. Plus I'm in camp "the heroes don't need to be god-level" powerful in general and favor several heroes as less powerful than they were at peak power. Anyway, she sounds highlevel power if she can do all that.

    I know Kory is strong and invulnerable, but don't know to what degree these days, so can't comment there. I'd generally have placed her high-level, on par with Donna for strength and Donna equal to Diana. But that was old days.

    All Green Lantern's are heavy-hitters, IMO. Too much power not to be.

  13. #88
    Mighty Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    For me, power only counts, not prestige or page time (at least in this thread which specifies it is about power). I don't keep up enough with character's changing power levels, and I know it. If we go through a storyline or transformation I don't like, and I quit reading the characters and only read what others say about them, so I'm in the dark.

    For me, Cyborg was a slid mid-tier character until N52. From the little I know about him now (I'm just not very interested in reading him without his Titans history, with his father still alive, etc. - might as well be a different character), he's definitely high-tier. Old-school Raven would have been mid-tier (and not that high a mid-tier as a solo hero, IMO), but I really don't know how her powers have gone since way back in the 1990s when she was dead for a while. Green Arrow is definitely street level.

    I don't really know Vixen - whenever anyone talks about her, it's always about how she should have major-league powers and how her powerset is great. Which is fine, but not enough to make me interested in the character. Power isn't the be-all, end-all - as this thread is all about how those mid-tier characters could/should be developed. Plus I'm in camp "the heroes don't need to be god-level" powerful in general and favor several heroes as less powerful than they were at peak power. Anyway, she sounds highlevel power if she can do all that.

    I know Kory is strong and invulnerable, but don't know to what degree these days, so can't comment there. I'd generally have placed her high-level, on par with Donna for strength and Donna equal to Diana. But that was old days.

    All Green Lantern's are heavy-hitters, IMO. Too much power not to be.
    Yeah. I know. I feel too many fans are preoccupied with their favorite characters doing some wild feat, like mimicking some obscure animal nobody has heard of. I know this is superhero comics, but some fans treat feats like the be-all-end-all and what a character really needs to get over, when it's really good stories that stand taller than anything else, resonate more than anything else, and have more of an impact than anything else. It's the main reason why people prefer Spider-Man over Vixen by a large margin. She may have a more varied power set, but who cares when she has no good stories? Same problem with Cyborg. Amping up is power and showing him mind control every single machine in the universe or whatever some would like to see him do isn't going to get him anywhere because he has no good stories.

  14. #89
    Judgement Awaits LordAllMIghty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    Yeah. I know. I feel too many fans are preoccupied with their favorite characters doing some wild feat, like mimicking some obscure animal nobody has heard of. I know this is superhero comics, but some fans treat feats like the be-all-end-all and what a character really needs to get over, when it's really good stories that stand taller than anything else, resonate more than anything else, and have more of an impact than anything else. It's the main reason why people prefer Spider-Man over Vixen by a large margin. She may have a more varied power set, but who cares when she has no good stories? Same problem with Cyborg. Amping up is power and showing him mind control every single machine in the universe or whatever some would like to see him do isn't going to get him anywhere because he has no good stories.
    Spider-man fan based is mostly comprised of young (or were young) boys who look like him...white, males who live vicariously through Peter.

    Spider man has been around for over 75 and during that time has had thousand of good and bad stories written about him. Few characters can match his longevity...let alone a minority character.

    Now with that being said. Spider-man has had his power feats over the years.
    Last edited by LordAllMIghty; 04-06-2020 at 06:21 PM.
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  15. #90
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Well, it's all sort of a case-by-case basis but generally it's a question of what degree of challenge can they reasonably, consistently, overcome, right? I vaguely rank it along these lines. And of course, there's tons of exceptions to everything and not everyone fits these definitions. And this is all based on what the character can consistently, reliably accomplish. Everyone can put in that extra effort and punch up sometimes, but I'm talking strictly "in their weight class" here.

    Low-tier power levels can be physically challenged by powerless, baseline human enemies. If a dude with a crowbar has a semi-reasonable chance to KO you, you're probably low-tier. Low-tier characters are, typically, going to be dealing with "real world" crime; drugs, human trafficking, smuggling, organized crime, etc. They may act locally, or globally, but will rarely find themselves in fantastical locales such as space or other dimensions. The scope of their actions rarely has direct implications for more than a city, or a very specific global network. A low-tier character can have powers, but rarely has more than one, or a very closely related set. Power limits are like "can reliably pick up a armored truck with some effort" and "reliably, consistently blow up a concrete wall" or "short out every circuit in this modestly sized building."

    Mid-tier power levels are much more clearly beyond the scope of humanity or real world technology. A baseline human can still be a threat, but it will require the human have something extra in his advantage; numbers, high-tech gear, world class training, etc. A dude with a crowbar can still get a lucky hit in, but when a mid-tier character fights baseline humans, he's noticeably punching below his weight class. The scope of their actions can have direct implications on anything from a city to the globe, but will rarely extend beyond that. Threats will include "real world" problems but will also include fantastical threats like alien invasions or giant monsters, and common locations may include different planets, dimensions, timelines, etc. A mid-tier character either has powers or equipment that eclipses real world technology/knowledge. They can not only pick up the armored truck, but might throw it through a building a block away. They won't just knock down a wall, they'll knock down the whole building. They won't just short out every circuit in the building, but the entire city.

    High-tier characters aren't challenged by baseline humans, excepting plot-induced reasoning. A baseline human with the best technology/knowledge on earth is damn unlikely to hurt the high-tier character. The scope of the high-tier character starts at a global level and often has direct implications for the solar system, if not the galaxy, universe, or more. If they deal with "real world" problems it carries global implications, and they operate in fantastical locales as often or more often than they do a standard, grounded setting. They can throw that armored truck into the sun or into the future, destroy a continent, and short out every circuit on the planet.
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