DC's mid tier (powerwise) heroes are kind of lacking.

[Ascended]

Yeah. I know. I feel too many fans are preoccupied with their favorite characters doing some wild feat, like mimicking some obscure animal nobody has heard of.

Being one of those people; come on we're talking about power levels. There's a whole discussion to be had about what Mari needs as a character, and her powers are far, far down that list, but we were talking about power levels, not narrative world building. So



And I'd argue that having more exciting action sequences *would* be a benefit to her character. Far from the main thing she needs but it sure as hell won't hurt. Someone who basically can access every power ever should be a lot more entertaining to read about when using those abilities.

[achilles]

Spider-man fan based is mostly comprised of young (or were young) boys who look like him...white, males who live vicariously through Peter.

Spider man has been around for over 75 and during that time has had thousand of good and bad stories written about him. Few characters can match his longevity...let alone a minority character.

Now with that being said. Spider-man has had his power feats over the years.

Well, Spider-Man was created in 1962, so he's what, 58? Vixen starting in 1981, so she's 39. Yep, a few years older.

[Vampire Savior]

Spider-man fan based is mostly comprised of young (or were young) boys who look like him...white, males who live vicariously through Peter.

Spider man has been around for over 75 and during that time has had thousand of good and bad stories written about him. Few characters can match his longevity...let alone a minority character.

Now with that being said. Spider-man has had his power feats over the years.

It seems like you're challenging what I said as if what I said is untrue. And the first thing you go to is the race of Spider-Man (predictably). Spider-Man has fans of every single shade. He has them not primarily because he is white, but because he has good stories that endeared people to the character. He also has a brilliant character design. There are plenty of white male characters that are not popular, and they are even not popular with white males.

Vixen's been around for I don't even know how long. Since the 70s, I know, and in that time, she has accumulated 0 good stories, and not that many notable moments in team settings or other people's stories. That's her main issue as a character, not that she doesn't mimic a majinion or whatever obscure animal. And doing that wouldn't even help her that much, if at all. Feats are okay...but that's the icing on the cake, not the cake. Without the cake, the icing is somewhat meaningless. That's why, regardless of how many times Cyborg goes Omega level or whatever, it never really gets him ahead. People kinda' don't care if they don't care about the character, and a lot of them won't care about the character without them being featured in consistently good stories. Sometimes a character cuts a strong presence, like Boba Fett, and people didn't need to see him doing much of anything for him to gain a rabid following. Cool character design with a pretty cool--if somewhat limited--role, and he was in a really, REALLY good film.

About Vixen being black as a challenge in gaining popularity...Eh. I don't know about that. You can say that black characters tend to be less popular, and that might be true, but, unlike a lot of other people, I'm actually willing to say that most black characters in comics are not that good, in my opinion. And for whatever it's worth, I say that as a brown person. Perhaps I'm ultra-critical, but I often find certain things with them that turn me off (concept, bad design, backstory, undeveloped world and character, unenviable roles, predictable eye-rolly themes, often used as soap boxes, boring, boring worlds, the list goes on), or I feel there is simply a lack of good content with them. There are a lot of white characters that suck (even more so), but I think there are more white characters that are actually worthwhile, where I feel there are hardly any at all among the black characters. With Vixen, you would almost HAVE to be into her because she's a black woman, because there isn't a whole heck of a lot else going on with her (no good stories). And I think that's regrettable.

I think that if there were more truly awesome black characterrs with easy universal appeal, that had consistently truly awesome stories, there would he more popular black characters, and you would probably find people from all different walks of life who like them.

[ScottSloane]

I would also argue someone like Zatanna is "mid tier". From a gaming standpoint, Zatanna is a "glass cannon", capable of taking down almost any foe, but because she's in a frail mortal body, she also can be defeated by a street level villain from time to time.

Is anything stopping Zatanna from walking around with repuS ssenhguoT on as a default? Or with invisibility and intangibility on, in tsohG mroF? Or whatever?

[daBronzeBomma]

Merge Black Canary and BlackBat into one hero called ... wait for it ... BlackBlack.

BlackBlack: legit bullet-timer (no speed force), better fighter than Batman, with a sonic scream for range attacks.

[LordAllMIghty]

Well, Spider-Man was created in 1962, so he's what, 58? Vixen starting in 1981, so she's 39. Yep, a few years older.

I swear, I thought we just celebrated 75 years of Spider-man...lol. Maybe I jumped into the past again.

It seems like you're challenging what I said as if what I said is untrue. And the first thing you go to is the race of Spider-Man (predictably). Spider-Man has fans of every single shade. He has them not primarily because he is white, but because he has good stories that endeared people to the character. He also has a brilliant character design. There are plenty of white male characters that are not popular, and they are even not popular with white males.

Vixen's been around for I don't even know how long. Since the 70s, I know, and in that time, she has accumulated 0 good stories, and not that many notable moments in team settings or other people's stories. That's her main issue as a character, not that she doesn't mimic a majinion or whatever obscure animal. And doing that wouldn't even help her that much, if at all. Feats are okay...but that's the icing on the cake, not the cake. Without the cake, the icing is somewhat meaningless. That's why, regardless of how many times Cyborg goes Omega level or whatever, it never really gets him ahead. People kinda' don't care if they don't care about the character, and a lot of them won't care about the character without them being featured in consistently good stories. Sometimes a character cuts a strong presence, like Boba Fett, and people didn't need to see him doing much of anything for him to gain a rabid following. Cool character design with a pretty cool--if somewhat limited--role, and he was in a really, REALLY good film.

About Vixen being black as a challenge in gaining popularity...Eh. I don't know about that. You can say that black characters tend to be less popular, and that might be true, but, unlike a lot of other people, I'm actually willing to say that most black characters in comics are not that good, in my opinion. And for whatever it's worth, I say that as a brown person. Perhaps I'm ultra-critical, but I often find certain things with them that turn me off (concept, bad design, backstory, undeveloped world and character, unenviable roles, predictable eye-rolly themes, often used as soap boxes, boring, boring worlds, the list goes on), or I feel there is simply a lack of good content with them. There are a lot of white characters that suck (even more so), but I think there are more white characters that are actually worthwhile, where I feel there are hardly any at all among the black characters. With Vixen, you would almost HAVE to be into her because she's a black woman, because there isn't a whole heck of a lot else going on with her (no good stories). And I think that's regrettable.

I think that if there were more truly awesome black characterrs with easy universal appeal, that had consistently truly awesome stories, there would he more popular black characters, and you would probably find people from all different walks of life who like them.

If you don't mind moving this conversation over to Vixen thread or to the minority thread. That would be great. No need to bog down a thread with personal views when we're now talking abour what makes a Mid-Tier.

Well, it's all sort of a case-by-case basis but generally it's a question of what degree of challenge can they reasonably, consistently, overcome, right? I vaguely rank it along these lines. And of course, there's tons of exceptions to everything and not everyone fits these definitions. And this is all based on what the character can consistently, reliably accomplish. Everyone can put in that extra effort and punch up sometimes, but I'm talking strictly "in their weight class" here.

Low-tier power levels can be physically challenged by powerless, baseline human enemies. If a dude with a crowbar has a semi-reasonable chance to KO you, you're probably low-tier. Low-tier characters are, typically, going to be dealing with "real world" crime; drugs, human trafficking, smuggling, organized crime, etc. They may act locally, or globally, but will rarely find themselves in fantastical locales such as space or other dimensions. The scope of their actions rarely has direct implications for more than a city, or a very specific global network. A low-tier character can have powers, but rarely has more than one, or a very closely related set. Power limits are like "can reliably pick up a armored truck with some effort" and "reliably, consistently blow up a concrete wall" or "short out every circuit in this modestly sized building."

Mid-tier power levels are much more clearly beyond the scope of humanity or real world technology. A baseline human can still be a threat, but it will require the human have something extra in his advantage; numbers, high-tech gear, world class training, etc. A dude with a crowbar can still get a lucky hit in, but when a mid-tier character fights baseline humans, he's noticeably punching below his weight class. The scope of their actions can have direct implications on anything from a city to the globe, but will rarely extend beyond that. Threats will include "real world" problems but will also include fantastical threats like alien invasions or giant monsters, and common locations may include different planets, dimensions, timelines, etc. A mid-tier character either has powers or equipment that eclipses real world technology/knowledge. They can not only pick up the armored truck, but might throw it through a building a block away. They won't just knock down a wall, they'll knock down the whole building. They won't just short out every circuit in the building, but the entire city.

High-tier characters aren't challenged by baseline humans, excepting plot-induced reasoning. A baseline human with the best technology/knowledge on earth is damn unlikely to hurt the high-tier character. The scope of the high-tier character starts at a global level and often has direct implications for the solar system, if not the galaxy, universe, or more. If they deal with "real world" problems it carries global implications, and they operate in fantastical locales as often or more often than they do a standard, grounded setting. They can throw that armored truck into the sun or into the future, destroy a continent, and short out every circuit on the planet.

I can go with this

[LordAllMIghty]

Double post

[titanfan]

Is anything stopping Zatanna from walking around with repuS ssenhguoT on as a default? Or with invisibility and intangibility on, in tsohG mroF? Or whatever?

You think she would have at least when going adventures with the Justice League. One errant punch or a stray energy blast...

[DrNewGod]

..I would say Karate Kid, Ultra Boy, Grace Choi, Black Lightning, Static Shock, Lightning Lad etc...

Black Lightning strikes me as the classic mid-tier character. Ultra Boy, IMO, not so much.

Would we classify Metamorpho and Plastic Man among those ranks? For that matter, could we call The Terrifics a mid-tier bunch?

[LordAllMIghty]

Mostly, going off Acesened Tier ranking (nicely done sir or madam), here how I see the ranking in DC...

dc-superheroes-ranking-street-to-god-level-313012-1586276979.jpg

I added God Tier (Beings able to affect a universe or on a multiverse level) and Street Level (Heroes possessing no power or having abilities so low they have no damage output...mostly athletic or peak human). Street-level was created because I really can't see someone like Black Canary not destroying someone like Huntress without using her Canary Cry.

[DrNewGod]

The concept of super-steroids making you tougher, stronger, faster and better than the average person!! He's a heck of a role model now days :P

Honestly, i've alwasy been a big fan of Rex. Everything from his power set to costume to time limit weakness I always loved... but I'm surprised even Captain America has somehow survived the super-steroid origin in today's climate.

Cap doesn't required repeated hits of the drug to keep his abilities. In comics, they've also made a big thing of his fitness regimen.

When I started reading DC again after a long, long break I mostly did it by reading old Hawkman stories..material from the Shadow War series on.

I’d say based on the feats I saw in a lot of his solo comics he is definitely mid tier (maybe he gets ramped up in JL material?....

Hawkman, particularly in his pre-Hawkworld Katar Hol version is what I call the all-purpose superhero. You could throw him at anything from a punk with a crowbar to Apokalyptian New God and make a decent story work out of it.

[Ascended]

Black Lightning strikes me as the classic mid-tier character. Ultra Boy, IMO, not so much.

Would we classify Metamorpho and Plastic Man among those ranks? For that matter, could we call The Terrifics a mid-tier bunch?

Metamorpho is a tough one. I think he's a lot like Vixen in that each individual power/element is mid-tier, but he has so much versatility he's capable of finding a counter to nearly anything and can keep up with the high-tier power houses. I'd call him mid-tier; despite the range his powers give him he's not breaking continents or changing the course of galactic politics with his actions. He's just a very flexible mid-tier with a powerset that lets him punch up a little easier than most.

Plastic Man is definitely mid-tier. He's a lot like Metamorpho in that his powers allow him a lot of highly useful utility that lets him hang with more powerful characters without being obviously out-classed, but he's not a world breaker.

I'd count the Terrifics as a mid-tier group.

Agreed on Lightning being mid-tier.

Don't agree with those saying Mr. Miracle is mid-tier. He's a New God. New Gods don't get to be mid-tier. I get why people are saying it though; his physical stats aren't on the level of other New Gods like Orion and Barda. But anyone who can slip in and out of Apokolips whether Darkseid wants you to or not can't be mid-tier, in my mind. I think Scott Free is a high-tier character with a unusual and subtle powerset.

[LordAllMIghty]

Metamorpho is a tough one. I think he's a lot like Vixen in that each individual power/element is mid-tier, but he has so much versatility he's capable of finding a counter to nearly anything and can keep up with the high-tier power houses. I'd call him mid-tier; despite the range his powers give him he's not breaking continents or changing the course of galactic politics with his actions. He's just a very flexible mid-tier with a powerset that lets him punch up a little easier than most.

Plastic Man is definitely mid-tier. He's a lot like Metamorpho in that his powers allow him a lot of highly useful utility that lets him hang with more powerful characters without being obviously out-classed, but he's not a world breaker.

I'd count the Terrifics as a mid-tier group.

Agreed on Lightning being mid-tier.

Don't agree with those saying Mr. Miracle is mid-tier. He's a New God. New Gods don't get to be mid-tier. I get why people are saying it though; his physical stats aren't on the level of other New Gods like Orion and Barda. But anyone who can slip in and out of Apokolips whether Darkseid wants you to or not can't be mid-tier, in my mind. I think Scott Free is a high-tier character with a unusual and subtle powerset.

I think you and I are on the same wavelength.

[achilles]

So then, now that we have a bit of a definition of the tier, who are all DC's high tier and mid tier heroes?

[DrNewGod]

Metamorpho is a tough one. I think he's a lot like Vixen in that each individual power/element is mid-tier, but he has so much versatility he's capable of finding a counter to nearly anything and can keep up with the high-tier power houses. I'd call him mid-tier; despite the range his powers give him he's not breaking continents or changing the course of galactic politics with his actions. He's just a very flexible mid-tier with a powerset that lets him punch up a little easier than most.

Plastic Man is definitely mid-tier. He's a lot like Metamorpho in that his powers allow him a lot of highly useful utility that lets him hang with more powerful characters without being obviously out-classed, but he's not a world breaker.

I'd count the Terrifics as a mid-tier group.

Agreed on Lightning being mid-tier.

Don't agree with those saying Mr. Miracle is mid-tier. He's a New God. New Gods don't get to be mid-tier. I get why people are saying it though; his physical stats aren't on the level of other New Gods like Orion and Barda. But anyone who can slip in and out of Apokolips whether Darkseid wants you to or not can't be mid-tier, in my mind. I think Scott Free is a high-tier character with a unusual and subtle powerset.

I agree with almost everything you offer, but Mr. Miracle is a toughie. He IS a New God, but only rarely uses his full abilities, even when his life's at stake.