View Poll Results: Should jon kent's shonen manga aesthetic and storybeats be discarded?

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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I think i would love for a grown jon to be more like ichigo. There is melancholic side to the character that i just love.
    Ichigo's the most boring protag I've ever seen, with the worst taste in women. If grown up Jon's the cool, semi-serious kind of shounen hero, he'd be better off as Gray from Fairy Tail. He's like Ichigo if Ichigo knew how to be fun every now and then.

    Though, unless something happens in his life that totally changes him, that's not the kind of guy I think Jon would grow up to be. He'd definitely be like Gohan or a less nervous Midoriya....So basically Togata


    Alternatively, if we're going for a more lowkey personality that's not totally dull, there's also Yoh from Shaman King

    Cheerful, calm, but still heroic and adventurous.
    Last edited by Blue22; 04-02-2020 at 10:45 PM.

  2. #17
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    I had watched fairytale for a while. It got boring after a while. The only character i liked in that show was laxus. As for ichigo's taste in women, ichihime was pretty much guaranteed first time kian and rukia's relationship was fleshed out. Kian was rukia's mentor and brother figure. Furthermore, ichigo basically throws rukia to renji. It's kinda funny how i have 100% strickrate in that department, for a guy that hates shipping . Orihime was developed enough as a non-fighter. Heck! was more developed than sakura. I wasn't talking about cool or serious. It's a tonal thing. There is undercurrents of sadness in ichigo due to the loss of his mother. The whole story is about coping with loss of a loved one as family and friends. For rukia, it was kian shiba. For orihime, it was her brother. For chad, it was her grandpapi. Ichigo does have fun. But, bleach is scriptwise much more tight than fairy-tale.Story needs that beat of melancholy. Because it isn't about a group of people coming together for adventures. They come together to fill an emptyness in eachother caused by the deaths of loved ones.

    I don't think jon is pragmatic . So, i don't think he would be like mirio. Jon is very emotional. As said like naruto, very hyper active. The kid never sits down for a second.he Is always running around or messing with things. Damian used to get whiplashes from jon's emotion and his running around.Jon is always on the look out for something to kill boredom. Deku is very much shy and is much more methodical in his fights. He plans things through. Jon doesn't plan at all.he is very intuitive and he hasn't really needed fight people to the death in one on one battle. Jon always ran.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 04-04-2020 at 11:45 AM.

  3. #18

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    I think aspects of Noel from FF13-2 with a bit of Noctis from FFXV would be good for an older Jon.

    Noel has this sense of assertiveness that Jon would've. Noctis tries to hide how he feels and play things off which you could apply to Jon's timeskip. Jon could avoid talking about what happened for XYZ and putt off dealing with it. Its an interesting wrinkle for him and something that could be good for a solo.

    Its not shonen anime but i thought it was interesting.

    Blue22's 1st comment summarizes my early thoughts better. I just lost interest in the goku archetype as i got older. Granted i haven't read the recent ones like My hero academia so maybe I'll change my mind.

    Ichigo might've been better off in an american comic. He reminded me of spiderman with the double life struggles. That was unique in shonen anime when i first read bleach.
    Last edited by the illustrious mr. kenway; 04-04-2020 at 09:16 AM.

  4. #19
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    I think aspects of Noel from FF13-2 with a bit of Noctis from FFXV would be good for an older Jon.

    Noel has this sense of assertiveness that Jon would've. Noctis tries to hide how he feels and play things off which you could apply to Jon's timeskip. Jon could avoid talking about what happened for XYZ and putt off dealing with it. Its an interesting wrinkle for him and something that could be good for a solo.

    Its not shonen anime but i thought it was interesting.

    Blue22's 1st comment summarizes my early thoughts better. I just lost interest in the goku archetype as i got older. Granted i haven't read the recent ones like My hero academia so maybe I'll change my mind.

    Ichigo might've been better off in an american comic. He reminded me of spiderman with the double life struggles. That was unique in shonen anime when i first read bleach.
    Noel and noctis is an interesting call. I particularly like Noctis.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 04-05-2020 at 12:02 PM.

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    Blue22's 1st comment summarizes my early thoughts better. I just lost interest in the goku archetype as i got older. Granted i haven't read the recent ones like My hero academia so maybe I'll change my mind.
    My Hero Academia doesn't really...have the Goku archetype protagonist. Which is one thing I absolutely love about it. It has the typical Goku/Vegeta or Naruto/Sasuke rivalry. But the main character is a lot smarter than either of those two and, in my opinion, an overall better and more likable character (Even as a kid I didn't like Goku very much).

    MHA is what we would have gotten had Toriyama not changed his mind about passing the Dragonball torch off to Gohan.

    Ichigo might've been better off in an american comic. He reminded me of spiderman with the double life struggles. That was unique in shonen anime when i first read bleach.
    Despite what I had previously said about Ichigo and the professional damsel that he calls a wife (he should have ended up with Tatsuki), I actually don't dislike him. And I do agree that he'd probably be more at home as a hero in western comics than he would in shounen manga, where the heroes are always expected to be quirky and full of personality (even if some of those personalities kinda melt together after a while). He's a very cool guy and a breath of fresh air from the typical kinds of characters you see in his genre. But he's just...not very interesting. He's like Batman. Everyone around him is fun and he's just kinda...there to be the hero.

    That said I do kinda have to disagree on the Spidey comparison since Ichigo never really did much struggling when it came to balancing his life as a human and as a Soul Reaper. Especially as the series progressed. Ichigo's always done what he wants, when he wants. So we never really got those moments of him struggling to manage time as a superhero and time as student who got good grades (I actually do like how he fit the "delinquent with a heart of gold" archetype to a T and yet his grades were always really good). We never really got him struggling to find time with his friends and family because all of them either became heroes with him later on, or they were already used to him coming and going as he pleased. He's like a toned down Yusuke Urameshi, in that regard.

    The first arc felt like it was touching on those issues but the balancing act always felt more like a slight inconvenience to Ichigo than a genuine source of stress and turmoil like it was for Peter. Then after the second (and BEST) arc in the series, all that kinda went out the window and Ichigo was always just a Soul Reaper first and everything else when the plot felt like acknowledging it.
    Last edited by Blue22; 04-05-2020 at 11:19 AM.

  6. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Noel and noctis is an interesting call. I particularly like Noctis.
    I think Zack from FF7 Crisis core might be a good template for Jon. Zack has a lot of innocence/idealism but his game forces him to really confront what he believed/wanted which could be good for Jon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    My Hero Academia doesn't really...have the Goku archetype protagonist. Which is one thing I absolutely love about it. It has the typical Goku/Vegeta or Naruto/Sasuke rivalry. But the main character is a lot smarter than either of those two and, in my opinion, an overall better and more likable character (Even as a kid I didn't like Goku very much).

    MHA is what we would have gotten had Toriyama not changed his mind about passing the Dragonball torch off to Gohan.



    Despite what I had previously said about Ichigo and the professional damsel that he calls a wife (he should have ended up with Tatsuki), I actually don't dislike him. And I do agree that he'd probably be more at home as a hero in western comics than he would in shounen manga, where the heroes are always expected to be quirky and full of personality (even if some of those personalities kinda melt together after a while). He's a very cool guy and a breath of fresh air from the typical kinds of characters you see in his genre. But he's just...not very interesting. He's like Batman. Everyone around him is fun and he's just kinda...there to be the hero.

    That said I do kinda have to disagree on the Spidey comparison since Ichigo never really did much struggling when it came to balancing his life as a human and as a Soul Reaper. Especially as the series progressed. Ichigo's always done what he wants, when he wants. So we never really got those moments of him struggling to manage time as a superhero and time as student who got good grades (I actually do like how he fit the "delinquent with a heart of gold" archetype to a T and yet his grades were always really good). We never really got him struggling to find time with his friends and family because all of them either became heroes with him later on, or they were already used to him coming and going as he pleased. He's like a toned down Yusuke Urameshi, in that regard.

    The first arc felt like it was touching on those issues but the balancing act always felt more like a slight inconvenience to Ichigo than a genuine source of stress and turmoil like it was for Peter. Then after the second (and BEST) arc in the series, all that kinda went out the window and Ichigo was always just a Soul Reaper first and everything else when the plot felt like acknowledging it.
    By Western comics, I meant the case of the week structure than the 100 issue arcs. Because Ichigo doesn't have a larger goal or distinct values of his own, he's more passive/reactive so he might do better in a slice of life format. My issue with the Aizen stuff was it went on too long and orihime/hueco mundo stuff felt like a rehash rather than something new.

  7. #22
    Incredible Member Powertool's Avatar
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    I've seldom seen a question as ill-posed as the one in the title of this thread.

    Ignoring the fact that "Shonen" as a term is a demographic (boys between the ages of 8 and 18) and not a genre and assuming that the OP is referring to the so-called "Battle shonen" manga, as typified by Fist of the North Star in the Eighties, what even are these supposed aesthetic and story points which Jon Kent supposedly shares with all the main characters I've seen mentioned across the two pages of this thread? Enlighten me because I'm really curious.

  8. #23
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powertool View Post
    I've seldom seen a question as ill-posed as the one in the title of this thread.

    Ignoring the fact that "Shonen" as a term is a demographic (boys between the ages of 8 and 18) and not a genre and assuming that the OP is referring to the so-called "Battle shonen" manga, as typified by Fist of the North Star in the Eighties, what even are these supposed aesthetic and story points which Jon Kent supposedly shares with all the main characters I've seen mentioned across the two pages of this thread? Enlighten me because I'm really curious.
    Dude! I wasn't talking about the 90's mate. He shares alot commonalities with the likes of hinata, deku, gohan and to some degree naruto.
    Naruto
    1)naruto is an ostracised kid wo plays pranks to get attension
    2)naruto is given a purpose
    3)naruto devlops his ninja way
    4)naruto makes friends.
    5)naruto trains with firends and rival
    5)naruto protects his friends and turns an enemy by fighting with new strength into friend
    6)naruto fails at bringing back sasuke.
    7)naruto decides to go train to get strong enough to bring back sasuke
    Jon kent
    1)jon kent is a normal kid whom's parents have secrets and lives in seemingly normal country side witha mystery
    2)jon kent develops powers and finds the secret behind it
    3)jon kent earns the responsibility of being the son of superman, el family insignia and superboy .
    4)jon kent realises the pressures, dark realities like death and dangers of heroics gets put in life threatening dangers
    5)jon kent makes friends
    6)jon kent starts to train with friends and rival.
    7)jon protects his friends and family unlocks new strength
    8)jon's powers fail him and he is rejected by his friends
    9) jon goes to space and now the future to train and be worthy of his family's name




  9. #24
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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  10. #25
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    I don't know how you can divorce Jon from his shonen manga influence and him still be Jon Kent. On some level, he needs to call back to it. There are enough archetypes to follow for all stages of his life that it can be done well. He should always have that high energy, willingness to scrap, devotion to his friends and overall follow his own personal sense of justice like most shonen manga protagonists tend to.

    A lot of that already falls in line with his old man, but Jon is a bit more exuberant and I think that's his overall north star. Making him brood sounds like a pretty quick way to get away from Jon, as does following any of Tetsuo Nomura's horrid design philosophy of fashionable black leather. Jon's a big, bright ball of energy and his design should be equally vibrant.
    Last edited by Robanker; 04-08-2020 at 03:26 PM.

  11. #26
    Incredible Member Powertool's Avatar
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    I don't understand the first part of your reply. I was talking about the distinction between Shonen, a demographic (boys between 8 and 18), and Battle Shonen, the genre I suppose people in this thread have been referring to. Battle Shonen has been existing in the currently recognizable form since the Eighties and Kenshiro is to the Battle Shonen MC what Superman is to all superheroes. That's all.

    Anyway, I'm more than a little perplexed about the supposed "similarities" you list. In fact, the only thing that strikes me while reading those sequences of concepts one after another is how DISSIMILAR the two lists are at any level which is not the most superficial. In fact, some of them are exposed in a way which could easily be used by somebody presenting a completely opposite argument: that Jon Kent is the anti-Battle Shone MC.

    The most glaring one is the equivalence of being the host of the Nine Tails with the power set of Superman, which I really hope I don't need to refute in this seat, since anyone who tries to draw equivalences between the effects of having a self-conscious demonic entity which devastated your hometown inhabiting your body and the laughable trifles Jon went through while trying to master his own powers could be interpreted as a sign of bad faith. The amount of sympathy we feel for a kid who is presented from chapter 1 as having been treated as a pariah for all of his childhood while having nobody at his side and a kid who has been living an uneventful, comfortable life in the countryside surrounded by the love and affection of his parents is just... not even in the same order of magnitude.

    And about both of them finding purpose... no. Just no. Jon goes around with a S-shield on his chest, a mark of freaking superhero royalty in the DC Universe. His purpose is to honor the Superman legacy? Well, duh! A pariah deciding that his destiny is to become village leader so that everyone can see how wrong they were about him and an 11-year-old who always lived a life free of want also finding out that he's the mightiest kid in the world while a radiant mother proudly asserts that he had always been 'her Superboy'... absolutely the same thing, how could anybody not see that? I'm sure that millions of adolescents and pre-adolescents who watched or read Naruto will find both stories equally uplifting and inspiring. Setting a seemingly unachievable target and going balls to the wall to beat the odds and achieve it VS being handed everybody on a silver platter and going with the most obvious route forward. Same thing, really.

    And keep in mind that 99% of what spelt the success of the Battle Shonen formula is condensed in the image of a proactive teenager taking the situation in his hands and showing to the world that he can make the impossible possible. All of this is simply absent in Jon's story, who is the prototype of the PASSIVE hero. He keeps meeting people who have expectations of him and it's those expectations which drive his actions. And by the way, I feel that any Battle Shonen protagonist worth his salt would have found a way out of that volcano on anti-matter Earth ages before Jon did, even those from Battle Shonens focused on cooking or high fashion.

    The only thing I admit Jon and Naruto have in common is that they both seemingly gravitate towards annoying b*tches, respectively Demian and Sasuke, way more than it would be healthy for them. Of course I'm biased, since I've been a detractor of Demian Wayne since day one and the Supersons concept is pure, concentrated boredom and death of creativity for me. But hey, I recognize that I'm in the minority on this particular issue, at least among the comic-reading fandom.

  12. #27
    Ultimate Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    For simplicity's sake; its the kid Goku, Luffy, young Naruto style. A bright and eager kid, looking for adventure, to have fun, and make friends. And at times, get into some mischief while they're at it.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    Despite what I had previously said about Ichigo and the professional damsel that he calls a wife (he should have ended up with Tatsuki)
    You say that as though Lois isn't a professional damsel too.

  14. #29
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    I...uh...don't recall saying anything about whether or not Lois is one too. But I suppose the difference is that Lois started out as just a love interest for her husband to save and became an interesting and entertaining character over time, while I always felt like the exact opposite happened to Orihime. Which is a shame because there are several times where it felt like she'd have more agency and be more than an eternal victim. But in the end she was just a let down for me. It started with the minimal role she played in the Soul Society arc and was solidified the moment she confessed (kinda) her love to Ichigo. That's where things went downhill for her and never really picked back up. She's up here with Sakura as one my least favorite female characters in...just about anything. And I really wanted to like them both.

  15. #30
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    For simplicity's sake; its the kid Goku, Luffy, young Naruto style. A bright and eager kid, looking for adventure, to have fun, and make friends. And at times, get into some mischief while they're at it.
    This. Very much this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Powertool View Post
    I don't understand the first part of your reply. I was talking about the distinction between Shonen, a demographic (boys between 8 and 18), and Battle Shonen, the genre I suppose people in this thread have been referring to. Battle Shonen has been existing in the currently recognizable form since the Eighties and Kenshiro is to the Battle Shonen MC what Superman is to all superheroes. That's all.

    Anyway, I'm more than a little perplexed about the supposed "similarities" you list. In fact, the only thing that strikes me while reading those sequences of concepts one after another is how DISSIMILAR the two lists are at any level which is not the most superficial. In fact, some of them are exposed in a way which could easily be used by somebody presenting a completely opposite argument: that Jon Kent is the anti-Battle Shone MC.

    The most glaring one is the equivalence of being the host of the Nine Tails with the power set of Superman, which I really hope I don't need to refute in this seat, since anyone who tries to draw equivalences between the effects of having a self-conscious demonic entity which devastated your hometown inhabiting your body and the laughable trifles Jon went through while trying to master his own powers could be interpreted as a sign of bad faith. The amount of sympathy we feel for a kid who is presented from chapter 1 as having been treated as a pariah for all of his childhood while having nobody at his side and a kid who has been living an uneventful, comfortable life in the countryside surrounded by the love and affection of his parents is just... not even in the same order of magnitude.
    This
    And about both of them finding purpose... no. Just no. Jon goes around with a S-shield on his chest, a mark of freaking superhero royalty in the DC Universe. His purpose is to honor the Superman legacy? Well, duh! A pariah deciding that his destiny is to become village leader so that everyone can see how wrong they were about him and an 11-year-old who always lived a life free of want also finding out that he's the mightiest kid in the world while a radiant mother proudly asserts that he had always been 'her Superboy'... absolutely the same thing, how could anybody not see that? I'm sure that millions of adolescents and pre-adolescents who watched or read Naruto will find both stories equally uplifting and inspiring. Setting a seemingly unachievable target and going balls to the wall to beat the odds and achieve it VS being handed everybody on a silver platter and going with the most obvious route forward. Same thing, really.

    And keep in mind that 99% of what spelt the success of the Battle Shonen formula is condensed in the image of a proactive teenager taking the situation in his hands and showing to the world that he can make the impossible possible. All of this is simply absent in Jon's story, who is the prototype of the PASSIVE hero. He keeps meeting people who have expectations of him and it's those expectations which drive his actions. And by the way, I feel that any Battle Shonen protagonist worth his salt would have found a way out of that volcano on anti-matter Earth ages before Jon did, even those from Battle Shonens focused on cooking or high fashion.

    The only thing I admit Jon and Naruto have in common is that they both seemingly gravitate towards annoying b*tches, respectively Demian and Sasuke, way more than it would be healthy for them. Of course I'm biased, since I've been a detractor of Demian Wayne since day one and the Supersons concept is pure, concentrated boredom and death of creativity for me. But hey, I recognize that I'm in the minority on this particular issue, at least among the comic-reading fandom.
    I know there are distictions. I ignored that part in the first reply because you are basically right. I know there is shoujo, seinen.. Etc. That are targeted at different demo's. I know the difference between one piece and berserk. that doesn’t mean these characters aren't what you call the patterns of protagonist of modern shonens and there aren't troupes that repeat in shonen manga.

    If jon hadn't awakened his powers he would just be regular kid. He wasn't a royalty.He earned the cape by learning to levitate for seconds after falling on his face for days, just like naruto earned the head band. He earned the s by protecting lois from the intergang and clark from black mercy. Keep in mind jon isn't powerful as clark, has unstable abilites, isn't fully grown devloped kryptonIan. A bullet and fire can hurt him, if fluctuations happen. Royalty are born with power. They are only trained to get good at their jobs. They aren't trained because they are potential nuclear bombs. Jon was. Jon was trained because he was about to be taken by the jl if superman wasn't going to start training him. And for every mother her son is superboy.

    Infact he was like naruto, ostracised by the superhero community for having unstable powers and being a potential threat. He was always thought of as a bomb that can walk. The reason for Clark's overprotectivness and crazy paranoid dad routine. Even, the jl thought that about him as such. Damian also kidnaps jon because he is threat. Also the titans tries to kill him. He had finally found a place after years of living in hiding basically and it gets taken from him. Also jon not learn darkside of superheroics, he forms his own ninja way as in superheroing method. I had forgotten to put these in as in as points.I admit naruto's ostricised orphan story is very sad. But, it was hammered down than more than it actually is. Naruto always had friends and he always had konohamaru, iruka and third hokage. He always had choiji, kiba and shikamaru. With iruka joining late.

    Jon wants to be superman,someday.like naruto wanted to be the hokage. Its not because its his birthright. But because its a simple rivalry with his father. Deepdown, he wants to make him proud. Deku want all might to be proud. Jon has hidden potential like gohan and had shown explosive powers on multiple occasions. One of the reasons he starts training.there is an uncousious element to naruto inheriting the will of fire and him wanting to be the hokage. When fourth says he was naruto's father. There is anger in naruto for sealing ninetails. But, deep down naruto knew on some level.

    Mix naruto and gohan, put wrinkle some deku or hinata like design. Bam, you got jon kent.Unlike clark, jon's powers were unstable and very much like naruto's nine tales. He killed his cat. He blew up the titans tower. He almost killed superman, titans and banged up fortress of solitude.There is potential effort by the creators to put in these troupes and patterns into jon. Not to mention, the fact that jon' story is littered with eater eggs and references from mangas like naruto, dragon ball, one piece.. Etc.Combined with the fact that jon isn't the titke character unlike naruto or any anime protagonists,so his developments aren't linear like or That focused on, shows jon's fanbase seems to be made of people who arent into battle shonen's.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 04-09-2020 at 01:48 AM.

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