View Poll Results: Should jon kent's shonen manga aesthetic and storybeats be discarded?

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  1. #1
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Default Should jon kent's shonen manga aesthetic and storybeats be discarded?

    As you know, jorge jimenez has been a champion for the supersons. He is a major anime fan. Naturally,Even with tomasi/gleason's run jon was given this anime protagonist type feel. those who like jon seems to like anime's, mangas.. Etc. There is a fair bit of overlap. With clark kent that isn't the case.As american comics fans, do you think it doesn't work for you? Or do you like the traditional aesthetic? Furthermore, would you want jon to focus more things like action and adventure, rather than romance and drama which is more superman's forte now a days.
    Do you want or like jon to have shonen protagonist-esque evolution?
    Lastly, regarding current run. do you believe Bendis's adult jon has it? If don't think he does,Do you want it back or not?

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    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 04-01-2020 at 08:41 PM.

  2. #2
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Still laughing at goofy ol Pa Fist. That's so Snyder and I'd love to see how he described it in the script.

    I don't really think you have to mess with those quirks because I think they're in the eye of the reader. Almost any child hero I can imagine to come along after decades of anime influence in cartoon culture would have to deal with the same comparisons.
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  3. #3
    Mighty Member Blue22's Avatar
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    I've always gotten some strong Gohan/Deku vibes from real Jon. I'd freakin love if he was a big shounen/tokusatsu nerd this whole time (hell, Bendis might have gotten at least some brownie points from me if he mentioned Sentai instead of Power Rangers).

    And yeah, you can totally see it in Jimenez' art. From the overall style to a lot of Jon's facial expressions. There's a lot of influence anime/manga influence and it just...works so well.

  4. #4
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Its honestly been a big part of Jon since the beginning, so discarding it out of hand is breaking the character (coughbendiscough).

  5. #5

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    The aesthetics are fine but I rather he doesn't become another shonen jump protagonist. I liked Shonen jump in my teenage years but I always disliked the Goku archetype that tends to populate shonen manga as the leads. As I got older I just found them tiresome and one-note.

  6. #6
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    I think they're in the eye of the reader. Almost any child hero I can imagine to come along after decades of anime influence in cartoon culture would have to deal with the same comparisons.
    Yeah, pretty much.
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  7. #7
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    The aesthetics are fine but I rather he doesn't become another shonen jump protagonist. I liked Shonen jump in my teenage years but I always disliked the Goku archetype that tends to populate shonen manga as the leads. As I got older I just found them tiresome and one-note.
    shonen protagonists maybe optimistic but there evolution is different. Take naruto and luffy. They both follow goku troupes . Look how they are and turned out. Luffy doesn't do much talking, he is basically an anarchist . If you are in his way you are going down. Naruto is master of empathy and talks, he is a centerist. Goku on the other hand is all about fighting and perfecting himself. He doesn't give a damn about anything else. He seeks perfection in himself .There are troupes ofcourse like being stupid. But, that's for comic relief.Many don't even follow that.Naruto especially, has grown past that.

    Besides, jon is more like naruto, gohan and some parts of deku.Naruto because of the rejections, being treated like bomb, uncontrollable powers.. Etc and the energetic personality . Gohan because of hidden potential and half breed. Deku cause of the shyness in parts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Still laughing at goofy ol Pa Fist. That's so Snyder and I'd love to see how he described it in the script.

    I don't really think you have to mess with those quirks because I think they're in the eye of the reader. Almost any child hero I can imagine to come along after decades of anime influence in cartoon culture would have to deal with the same comparisons.
    I think there is more to this though. Jon follows the troupes more than any other characters. Why isn't wallace,crush, djinn.. Etc or anyone else in current gen compared?heck! Why isn't conner compared? Furthermore, even damian wasn't compared that much till jon came into the picture.jon's fandom seems to have more anime fans in general. The overlap is quiet surprising. With other character there isn't this much
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 04-02-2020 at 01:04 PM.

  8. #8
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Style is fine, but that's not the problem. The very concept is messed up beyond all reason. They should start over (I'm not talking reboot, I'm talking the child angle). Give Clark and Lois a son or daughter the right way. This was never a Bruce and Talia situation. Grant Morrison crafted an adolescent kid in a way that worked within that mythos. Jurgens and the rest of the Rebirth crew did not for Superman's. If you want to give them a kid, do it in a way that fits Superman's mythos. And in that case, if its the result of a happy marriage between Lois and Clark it demands no tricks, you have to give them a baby and go from there (I realize in a vaccuum Convergence did this fine, but obviously things went in a drastically different direction thereafter). Doing otherwise was and is complete amateur hour. The age-ups are bad enough, but what's absolute poison is crafting a situation where you have to peddle that something on this scale of importance has existed in a canon history in which it was never there before. It does not work in regards to anything close to at least a somewhat respectable template of history. They wanted their history back with Rebirth, but at the same time they managed to make a further mess out of Superman's in the process. Classic not seeing the forest for the trees, as fast forward to today and Superman's current lore is more fubar now than its ever been before. This is where poor writing via cheap shortcuts gets you.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 04-02-2020 at 01:01 PM.
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  9. #9
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Style is fine, but that's not the problem. The very concept is messed up beyond all reason. They should start over (I'm not talking reboot, I'm talking the child angle). Give Clark and Lois a son or daughter the right way. This was never a Bruce and Talia situation. Grant Morrison crafted an adolescent kid in a way that worked within that mythos. Jurgens and the rest of the Rebirth crew did not for Superman's. If you want to give them a kid, do it in a way that fits Superman's mythos. And in that case, if its the result of a happy marriage between Lois and Clark it demands no tricks, you have to give them a baby and go from there (I realize in a vaccuum Convergence did this fine, but obviously things went in a drastically different direction thereafter). Doing otherwise was and is complete amateur hour. The age-ups are bad enough, but what's absolute poison is crafting a situation where you have to peddle that something on this scale of importance has existed in a canon history in which it was never there before. It does not work in regards to anything close to at least a somewhat respectable template of history. They wanted their history back with Rebirth, but at the same time they managed to make a further mess out of Superman's in the process. Classic not seeing the forest for the trees, as fast forward to today and Superman's current lore is more fubar now than its ever been before. This is where poor writing via cheap shortcuts gets you.
    Dude, you aren't going to get a step by step evolution of a baby to kid of superman. They will need to do timeskips or something else. Even if you go by linear story with start, middle and finish. Look at naruto, it took a leap for boruto.this is comics with never ending storytelling. They can't take a leap. Kids need to injected someway for a change so time shinanigens were used. Superman is already soap opera drama, as is. I don't want to see clark doing mundane nonsense with the baby. Furthermore, canon is already messed up. Pre-Flashpoint was basically injected into new52 regardless of jon. Many characters including superman, wally.. Etc were reintroduced to change the canon history . That was the demand which dc complied.Jon just took the vehicle similar to those characters . Canon continuity is whatever dc says it is at the moment.

    This is'nt a new thing either. Crisises did all these kind of thing. Powergirl was part of the clutter earth. Her history was wierd. She was Clark's cousin and not at the same time. Jon's background is pretty straightforward,in that regard. He is the son of superman. He grew up in hamilton. His friends are damian, kathy, maya.. Etc. He has trouble with his powers. He was viewed a potential threat by superhero teams like jl, teen tians.. Etc. He was kidnapped by multiple villains and was subjected to their brainwashing/torture.therefore,was subjected to training with cohort damian and started brotherhood based on the rivalry with their father and ambition to surpass them. He was rejected by titans and was even attacked by them. He went to space.

    Regardless, this thread isn't about this. It's about jon kent's shonen attributes. Which for me should be embraced more. I would rather jon be more action centric, than drama centric. Which is what the character has always been. Jon was never about drama,until maybe with bendis.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 04-02-2020 at 01:29 PM.

  10. #10
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I don't believe that at all. There is nothing preventing something at least in the ball park of natural evolution in large part. That's not lacking to take into account having to account for comic book time vs the passage of real time, I understand this. Like, with Aquaman for example, I'm not expecting Andy to age a year every realtime year nor do I expect her to stay a toddler for a decade. There's a balancing act there of course which I understand. I'm talking about major timeskips without any substantial growth beforehand. We didn't experience the growth of Lois and Clark as parents for anything close to a meaningful period before he was aged up to 10. Then we got a couple years of ten before a drastic age up to near-adulthood. I not only don't believe that process is necessary, I believe its incredibly poor plotting and writing. Beyond that, as I've said its not even the most major issue. The back-breaking problem is how he was attempted to be injected into the past history of the lore in which he's not supported, because its just too large and important a change. This isn't retroactively saying Superman's worn some different costumes at different points or something. This is way more major and so cascades in a way that contributes largely in ruining the credibility of his history more than it already was. Naruto didn't try to tell its readers that Boruto existed in a time period in which he clearly did not yet.

    I do agree though that its nothing new. DC has done this many times to the complete ruination of their overall history as well throughout the years, most notable starting with the Crisis. This is documented, hence why all the history altering events after intending to fix past mistakes but just making more. They never learn, but the fact they haven't learned doesn't make it a positive well constantly to go back to. They just can't seem to grasp that its a poisonous well.

    Though I'm sorry if I went too far off-topic. Your opening post also queried thoughts on adult Jon, which happened as a result of the second of his major timeskips, and I commented and elaborated on that. If its taking things too far in a direction that you're not intending though, I'll certainly let it go.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 04-02-2020 at 01:55 PM.
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  11. #11
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I don't believe that at all. There is nothing preventing something at least in the ball park of natural evolution in large part. That's not lacking to take into account having to account for comic book time vs the passage of real time, I understand this. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about major timeskips without any substantial growth before hand. I don't believe massive timeskips like that are necessary at all. Beyond that, as I've said its not even the most major issue. The back-breaking problem is how he was attempted to be injected into the past history of the lore. Naruto didn't try to tell its readers that Boruto existed in a time period in which he clearly did not. It was organic in its passage even if they did move forward quickly.

    Though I'm sorry if I went too far off-topic. Your opening post also queried thoughts on adult Jon, and I took that and ran with it in regards to my disdain of the timeskips and how its ruined the concept from the very start.
    Ok. Give me an example or a precedent in dccomics or comics in general of natural evolution . The only one remotely close is fantastic four kids.

    Naruto didn't need to. Naruto isn't a never ending story. Naruto can age up and die. He did age uo, he is getting bald funnily enough . Superman is for better or worse stuck in dcu with a never ending story. He can't take leaps alone.if he does every other franchise does including batman. If a linear story telling mechanics was used superman and batman would be 40 to 50 with jon being 10.That's not possible. Here,clark is still the ballparks of 30 to 40.preflashpoint history itself is being injected in to the past history of new52. By that notion Pre-Flashpoint superman or wally west himself shouldn't have been brought back. Bart, conner.. Etc are all brought back. You don't have problems with that. But, a character that existed in concept for decades prior, being introduced using the same vehicle is bad. How? Furthermore, from what i know it was used in that environment for that purpose only. I don't think tomasi or jurgen wanted to timeskip again after tge continuity was more or less set with doomsday clock. Its on bendis, how he went ahead chris kented jon. I have also given the problems with powergirl, black canary..etc as well.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 04-02-2020 at 01:55 PM.

  12. #12
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    It'll be rubbed away soon enough. Superman has little to no resemblance to any of Siegel's depictions of the character and "fans" are eager to keep it that way. Same future awaits Jon.
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  13. #13
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    I've thought for years that DC's teen heroes especially ought to embrace the art style of the most commercially successful comics in the world. I mean, I don't even know if I'd just limit it to that, either. I was just watching Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, and I thought, "It'd be cool to see a Superman story in a similar style to this, because these characters are masculine in a way that anime characters usually aren't, but still beautiful in a way that masculine characters usually aren't. It'd be a good fit for Superman!" Now obviously Jon is a little less Joestar and a little more Midoriya, but either way, I think integrating different styles as a possibility for western super-heroes, especially popular styles, can only be a good thing.
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  14. #14
    Mighty Member Blue22's Avatar
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    If, for whatever reason, Jon's character began to be more focused on recreating the shounen action hero archetype, I would at least hope that whoever wrote him in this hypothetical scenario would look towards characters like Midoriya, Gohan, Edward, and Maka for inspiration, and not the obvious battle hungry dumbass archetypes like Goku, Luffy, Asta, and (as much as I love him) Natsu. Let him follow the same story beats as your typical shounen hero, but just take after the ones who have a bit more...depth...and intellect.

  15. #15
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    If, for whatever reason, Jon's character began to be more focused on recreating the shounen action hero archetype, I would at least hope that whoever wrote him in this hypothetical scenario would look towards characters like Midoriya, Gohan, Edward, and Maka for inspiration, and not the obvious battle hungry dumbass archetypes like Goku, Luffy, Asta, and (as much as I love him) Natsu. Let him follow the same story beats as your typical shounen hero, but just take after the ones who have a bit more...depth...and intellect.
    I think i would love for a grown jon to be more like ichigo. There is melancholic side to the character that i just love.

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