View Poll Results: which Batfamily member you don't like ?

Voters
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  • Batman (Bruce Wayne)

    14 12.50%
  • Nightwing (Dick Grayson)

    6 5.36%
  • Drake (Tim Drake)

    30 26.79%
  • Robin (Damian Wayne)

    38 33.93%
  • Batwoman (Kathy Kane)

    20 17.86%
  • Huntress (Helena Bertinelli)

    9 8.04%
  • Orphan (Cassandra Cain)

    15 13.39%
  • Batiglrl (Barbara Gordon)

    9 8.04%
  • Signal (Duke Thomas)

    51 45.54%
  • Red Hood (Jason Todd)

    30 26.79%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. #16
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    The fact that people are chosing Bruce is proof that the Batfamily is detrimental to his mythos
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Or, Bruce is written as a sociopath/Bat-Sue a bit too often and should be changed accordingly.
    The main problem is how writers approach Bruce. There is an inherent problem in how many creators see him and they'd probably be writing him that way even if there was a smaller Bat-family.

    But sometimes some of Bruce's worst asshole moments occur not in his main books, but in the spin off books. By the writers of the Bat-Family who choose to write him that way to give drama to the protagonists of the book. Like one of the seemingly most infamous recent examples is him beating up Jason, but that was in Jason's book by Jason's author, not Bruce. Stuff like that is obnoxious as all get out. Along with his hand in the Ric nonsense, maybe anything by Lobdell should be automatically dismissed? lol

    In general, I think the timing of the Bat-Family exploding while Batman becomes more and more of an enormous douchebag is just an unfortunate coincidence. Morrison wrote the best Batman in recent memory because he injected some of the old pre-COIE flavor back into the character, and he used as many characters as possible in Batman INC. So it can be done, just not that often. I know lots of people are nostalgic for the Dixon days, but that's where it gradually started to go wrong. Bruce's allies don't even seem to like him, and I can't entirely blame them. But if I can't care about the main character (and not many of the others are interesting enough for me) and nobody seems to like each other and it's just misery city, why should I be invested?

    There are times when I would be 100% ok with a clean reboot without all the baggage and we can get a better Bruce again.

  2. #17
    Fantastic Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    SALES OF FEBRURAY 2020

    Batman 88: 56,992 copies + 17,431 copies of the Card Stock edition (I don't know what Card Stock means)
    Batman 89: 56,406 copies + 16,891 copies of the Card Stock edition
    Batman; Curse of the White Knight 7: 54,255 copies
    Detective Comics 1020: 32,363 copies + 10,973 copies of the Card Stock edition
    Batman; Pennyworth RIP: 38,00 copies
    Batman Grave 5: 28,817 copies
    Batman and the Outsiders 10: 15,967 copies
    Batman versus Ra's al Ghoul 4: 15,733 copies
    Batman Giant 3: 10,671 copies
    Batgirl 44: 10,538 copies + 5,374 of the Card Stock edition (bestseller among the "Bat-titles" without Batman)

    EDIT: the bestseller among the "Bat-titles" without Batman was Nightwing 69 with 18,262 copies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    The fact that people are chosing Bruce is proof that the Batfamily is not detrimental to his mythos
    Fixed.

  3. #18
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    In general, I think the timing of the Bat-Family exploding while Batman becomes more and more of an enormous douchebag is just an unfortunate coincidence.
    I tend to agree. I feel similarly about a correlation of Alfred as his childhood guardian and his increasing emotional bad health.

    But if I can't care about the main character (and not many of the others are interesting enough for me) and nobody seems to like each other and it's just misery city, why should I be invested?
    I think a big point of difference is that I never, even before I ever read a single comic, liked Bruce as well as Robin and Batgirl. Also, I think Bruce is and would be just as much misery-city even without the family around.

    I also think part of the the problem is writers who want to keep the characters they are writing - doesn't matter if it's Bruce or Dick or Jason or someone else - miserable all the time. I remember an old comment from (I think) Stan Lee. On being asked, didn't he think Peter had too many problems, the response was basically "no, readers buy more when he has more problems." Misery seems to move comics. I don't have a taste for that unremitting angst and melodrama anymore. Maybe I'm too old, but I find it tedious. It's one thing for a storyarc. It's another when it's one story/arc on top of another with thing never getting/staying better. I think villains can be a great trial, and family shouldn't have to be.

    I know lots of people are nostalgic for the Dixon days, but that's where it gradually started to go wrong. Bruce's allies don't even seem to like him,
    I think the latter part of the Dixon years are definitely a bad time for Bruce and the family, but I think it started to go wrong long before that. I can think of several instances of Bruce behaving like absolute crap to others (especially non-family, but family sometimes, too) in the 1980s. I think it's a pretty continuing from the 1980s on in, and it's just the "new" jerkish characterization finally mostly won out completely in the late 1990s.

    Of course, I also think the other adults need to be independent and only rarely working with Batman, now. I don't like them kept in his shadow as his subordinate. Another sad part of the new Batman is that he cannot have equals even among other heroes, but even for other heroes, it's tough row to hoe for others in the "family" that aren't the star - unlike the earlier days when sidekicks could rescue heroes and the like. I like the pre-COIE where Barbara was an independent hero, occasionally working with them. Then developed a (temporary, as it turned out, but could be renewed easily) friendship/partnership with Robin. I like that idea that Barbara's relationships would primarily be with Dick and Cass, without much personal connection to Bruce. Obviously, she's part of the family from marketing perspective, but a separate operator. I prefer Kate completely independent of him (and unrelated, honestly), and doing with only occasional teamups and not having any sort of personal relationship with the others, really. Steph being close with Tim and Cass is great - but I don't need for her to be Batgirl or a member of the family or forge more than casual ties with the others. While I do think Dick's relationship with Bruce has been great at times (and sucky at others, of course), I'm sick of death of keeping him this kid who can never get out Batman's shadow. He's should be an indepent adult not still taking orders or jobs from Batman. Well, he was once, but they reverted him (Titans went downhill and crashed and Batman was on the ascent).

    Mind you, if there were 12 stories a year, instead of 1 story every year, then teamups could be once every other year, without a problem. I really do think the lack of number of stories hurts in that regard. Once a year becomes other family members in every story instead of in 1 out of 12 (or 24 or 36, depending on how far back you go).

    There are so many Bats because the Bat has a good chance of selling books, I think we all know that. I cannot deny the Batman that I do not like moves product. I guess people just think he's a badass and like him that way. Better shot at success than developing unrelated solo heroes.

    I agree from a grand narrative position of gaining family, only one family member is necessary. I don't agree that's what Bruce's narrative journey always was, of course. Once up on a time that boy who lost his family grew up (and also had other family), though more recent takes on that character have him never get past that loss and sadly, never mature as he should. In the old days, it motivated him, but didn't consume him. He perceived retirement, marriage, etc. as a given - something he'd certainly do someday. That's long-past.

  4. #19
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    nahhhhhhhhhhh.
    na na na na na na na na na na na na! Batman!

    He's not supposed to be likeable, though. Its the Batman we deserve, but not the one we are willing to have. Something like that.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  5. #20
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I think a big point of difference is that I never, even before I ever read a single comic, liked Bruce as well as Robin and Batgirl. Also, I think Bruce is and would be just as much misery-city even without the family around.
    I think that's a key difference for me: I largely became a fan of Batman for Batman. I always loved Robin (Dick) and Batgirl (Babs) as well, just not more than the main character. I considered them essential supporting players, but not leads. Beyond that, it was the major villains who were a big draw for me as well. This is all due to exposure primarily to BTAS, but also Adam West reruns and the 90s films. So for me the essentials took on a specific form and cemented themselves in my mind pretty early on, so when I gravitated to the comics a lot of the multiple sidekicks seem superfluous to me, and I don't like Bruce himself more than half the time the later the comics get. The main dynamics I care about are Bruce's relationships with his closest and long lasting family and allies (Dick, Alfred, Gordon, Babs, Harvey, Selina) and important dynamics across IPS (Clark being the big one), and the villains.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I think the latter part of the Dixon years are definitely a bad time for Bruce and the family, but I think it started to go wrong long before that. I can think of several instances of Bruce behaving like absolute crap to others (especially non-family, but family sometimes, too) in the 1980s. I think it's a pretty continuing from the 1980s on in, and it's just the "new" jerkish characterization finally mostly won out completely in the late 1990s.
    Oh I agree that it definitely started to rear its ugly head as early as the 80s, even a little bit pre-COIE. It became a problem with Miller. I used Dixon because that seems to be the era the popular Bat-Family with all the extended players started to cement, and it was when Batman started cross the point of no return into being an insufferable prick.

  6. #21
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I don't like Orphan as Cass' codename. Does that count ?

  7. #22
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    1.) Signal (Duke Thomas), he simply feels like an unnecessary edition, a boring non-entity who takes up space, to me.

    2.) Robin (Damian Wayne), I don't think Bruce needs a biological son, sorry. Other than his adventures with Jon Kent I've never found Damian that engaging as a character.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  8. #23
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Or, Bruce is written as a sociopath/Bat-Sue a bit too often and should be changed accordingly.
    A valid point but he's the current cash cow of DC Comics so I doubt his characterization will change anytime soon........
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  9. #24
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    I've always been indifferent to Dick (outside maybe Burt Ward in the 66 show), and his insane popularity with this fanbase, especially over Bruce sometimes, annoys me. But ultimately I am just indifferent to him for the most part. And I do like some of the animated takes on him (Young Justice mostly, the Batman Unlimited and Lego dtv films).

    Damian on the other hand is a character I very much would like retconned out of existence the sooner the better. Partially because I don't want Batman to have a biological son (or daughter, for those clamoring for a Helena Wayne) and partially because I often find him insufferable.

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    na na na na na na na na na na na na! Batman!

    He's not supposed to be likeable, though. Its the Batman we deserve, but not the one we are willing to have. Something like that.
    Oh that was just me deleting my comment lol.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  11. #26
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    LoL, Batiglrl. Sorry...

    Anyway I’m more indifferent then full on dislike, but I guess the closest i come to full on disliking these days are Tim and Cass. The pretentiousness when it comes to Tim too often annoys me, and Cass in general I just don’t find to be a very good idea.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 04-02-2020 at 05:17 PM.

  12. #27
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Batman - I picked Bruce because I tend to find Bruce's character annoying and broken a lot of the time. mind you, that usually happens because of how DC and their creatives envision and use him from time to time, but he's been misused so often for so long that I don't think I can see that character breaking my top 15 ever again.

    Drake and Nightwing - it's really their fans that have caused me to develop an aversion to dick grayson and tim drake. dick less so because I can respect the legacy he represents and every once in a while he is somewhat interesting, but tim has never measured up to the halabalu from his fans. i always confused me how often Duke got/gets shit on for being "redundant", when tim drake is effectively the same character conceptually as Jason Todd when he was introduced; a generic sidekick to fill the Robin role for the (then) current reading audience. the characters don't move me one way or the other on their own but it's more so their fans' insistence on them that turn me off.

    everyone else I either like (a couple are in my permanent top 10) or don't strongly dislike. there was a point in time Damian and Batwoman would've definitely gotten that vote but they've grown on me in recent years.
    SIGNAL/Duke Thomas is the Midnight Sun of Gotham(respect thread)

    Martin to Malcolm: militant Professor X is kinda the wave right now

    DC: Batman & The Outsiders, Teen Titans, Suicide Squad, The Flash, Justice League Odyssey, Far Sector, Red Hood/Outlaws

    Marvel: Immortal Hulk, Miles Morales: Spiderman, Black Panther, X-Men (2019), Venom, X-Force, Hellions, Giant Sized X-Men

    Anticipated titles: anything from Milestone*, X of Swords

  13. #28
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    people i straight up don't like : any other Bruce that's not Golden Age Batman nor Alan Grant Batman
    people i get the appeal and reason of, but feel are redundant and bland : tim and duke and sometimes babs
    people i like that i dont think should be in the fam : cass, kate
    people i like that have outlived their point : jason and damian
    Last edited by nhienphan2808; 04-02-2020 at 11:46 PM.

  14. #29
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    I can't say I dislike any of them. I feel neutral at best towards some, and I can't say I hate Bruce either, even when I'm probably feeling deeply hurt by how he's been written for a long while (but I like him quite a lot when he's written like in the B:TAS series, for example).

    I vote blank.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 04-02-2020 at 08:40 PM.
    This is a signature. It has letters on it, and those letters form words. Words like these. I will not quote anything because I'm uninspired but, I read a lot: I could!

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  15. #30
    Amazing Member Murrocko's Avatar
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    Harper Row

    But for realsies, Tim Drake, but only when I'm reminded Dick Grayson is dumbed down because he's now the athletic one and Tim is the brainy one.

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