which Batfamily character(s) you don't like

[Jackalope89]

I would guess Damian fans voting for Tim and vice versa

I'm a Damian fan, but only voted for Bruce. I don't hate any of the other characters. Tim and Duke, I'm not really invested in, but I don't hate them either. From there, I like the rest to one degree or another, with Jason and Damian being at the top for me.

[Frontier]

I don't know that that's necessarily a good thing. I don't think writers of superhero comics are always equipped to handle such topics as much as they think they are, not without doing damage to characters in the process through accumulation. Stuff like the scan you posted. There seems to be a lack of foresight in publishing such a comic and having it be in the main canon. You just had Batman strike his kid guys, you can't walk back from that. Was the story you are trying to tell really worth the end result for him?

For a character dealing with a traumatic experience and lashing out at himself and his loved ones before climbing out of rock bottom...yes? Maybe it has a negative impact but one could argue it makes the payoff and emotional resolution more impactful.

I don't want to see Batman get too edgy or go off the rails too much either but I don't want to limit the emotional range of his grief either, or of the story potential for something that might not have fit into a normal cartoon or Silver Age comic.

At times, it comes across as juvenile attempts to seem "mature." Look, comics are violent and "realistic" now and the heroes are traumatized assholes. Basically adults injecting "adult" themes into children's stuff to justify their continued interest in fantasy stories about a man dressed as a bat who drives a rocket car.

I think there's a fine line from having Superhero comics address adult themes intellectually and having them cater to them in a form of the lowest common denominator, but I think the former is why Batman has been able to maintain his popularity across all these decades moreso then the latter.

"Kiddie stuff" is a heck of a way to dismiss a lot of wonderful work, by talented creators. Batman can be a character all ages enjoy, but the roots of the character are always going to be a children's character. That isn't an insult at all, that should be considered when approaching the character.

But I don't think it should be seen as a way of limiting the character. Like, "Year One" isn't a children's story but it's a story that still maintain's the integrity of Batman as a character even when he's dealing with more realistic and darker issues.

I can't express how hurtful it is to read Dick's "Jason wasn't me. I was a trained acrobat. i could think quickly in perilous situations. But why did you let him become Robin before he was ready?".
Like being a trained acrobat would have meant anything in Jason's case. This is just writers bragging that Dick Grayson is superior to a 15-year old street kid that was tortured and murdered.
This is writers setting out to shift the blame on Jason by retconning him into the "violent and stupid Robin that got himself killed because he wasn't good enough".

To me it reads off because I can't believe Bruce would have ever taken Jason out if he didn't feel, training-wise, he had him up to par with Dick as Robin before their first patrol together. I mean I guess there's some instinctual things you can't teach because of experience but Jason still should've been relatively about on par with Dick in his early years.

But also, especially for the Robins (and all legacies, really), I get very frustrated and feel they get pitted against each other by writers as well as fans (which can make you dislike the character your favorite is being put down to further). And especially with Robins I feel that writers in recent decades have compartmentalized them. Each one feels less fully fleshed out because personality traits or skill are parceled out between them - at least when they appear together. I feel Dick is most hurt by this because he was first and had the full gamut of skills to start with and they've been reduced. It didn't happen when Jason was introduced or when Tim was, but it did happen at some point. This is particularly overt with Tim as the detective to me.

I don't mind Tim's emphasis as a detective because I feel like it has it's roots in his origin. It's definitely not the only thing there is to him though.

[Tzigone]

I don't mind Tim's emphasis as a detective because I feel like it has it's roots in his origin. It's definitely not the only thing there is to him though.

My problem is that he's the Detective, and I feel the detective aspect has been downplayed or removed from others (at least when Tim is around). Again, Dick particularly (he was my favorite, so I pay more attention there). He used to be a fantastic detective, but now only Tim is. They should all be fantastic detectives. It's their thing.

[Frontier]

My problem is that he's the Detective, and I feel the detective aspect has been downplayed or removed from others (at least when Tim is around). Again, Dick particularly (he was my favorite, so I pay more attention there). He used to be a fantastic detective, but now only Tim is. They should all be fantastic detectives. It's their thing.

I've never seen Dick particularly depicted as a bad detective. Like he solved some cases in Seeley's Nightwing run and in Chuck Dixon's work. He helped spearhead the investigation in Murderer/Fugitive.

People who've read Lobdell's Jason work can probably cite some instances where he's done detective work.

It's just like all the Batfamily are agile but nobody is the acrobat like Dick is. Or all the Batfamily can fight well but nobody fights like Cass or Bruce does. It's not necessarily a slight to anyone, or it doesn't have to be.

[SiegePerilous02]

For a character dealing with a traumatic experience and lashing out at himself and his loved ones before climbing out of rock bottom...yes? Maybe it has a negative impact but one could argue it makes the payoff and emotional resolution more impactful.

In this one incident, maybe I can the merit in that type of story. What Bruce does to Dick is bad, but considering the extreme situation of his grief not totally unexpected and understandable. It could be impactful if it was a one time thing.

But writers seem to love one-uping each other when it comes to Bat-dickery. it wasn't a one time thing. We now have people in his own sub-forum saying Batman sucks because he's essentially a domestic abuser. Some of the examples aren't that far off the mark, so somewhere something seriously wrong happened. It's pretty ugly taking a superhero aimed primarily at kids and making him hit/manipulate his kids for the sake of...what?

I don't want to see Batman get too edgy or go off the rails too much either but I don't want to limit the emotional range of his grief either, or of the story potential for something that might not have fit into a normal cartoon or Silver Age comic.

I think he'd moved into more complexity at least as early as the Bronze age, they just didn't go overboard with it there. He should have more emotional range than the campy Silver Age, but even in stuff with more heavy subject matter like Year One or Arkham Asylum, or the Nolan films, they leave the kid sidekicks out of it.

[L.H.]

Which is why I said "half". I know some people have read him, but looking at how many of them comment in the threads of his books, not a lot had followed him. And in order to like a character, you need to know them to some degree. I bet you at least have read Batman and Robin or Under the Hood for those two characters. Those two books are pretty determining for his character. For Duke, as he is now, I think Batman and the Signal is more important than Robin War would be (I may be wrong, in any case, in all cases. This is me trying to sound convincing with her bulls**t reasoning :^D).

I know, I was just explaining myself. I totally get your point, and you're right. Of course I've read Under the Hood, but I loved Jason since The Diplomat Son, It's just Lobdell's writing which bothers me. The same with Damian, I don't like Glass take on him and the whole Teen Titans team.
I've tried Batman and the Signal, but I didn't liked it, sorry. Probably, I'm just too old

[Sergard]

Considering that Dick is

The Leader
The Acrobat
The Better Batman/Better Than Batman
Batman's Greatest Success
The Man That Everyone Trusts
The Sexgod
The Butt
The Hottest Guy in the DC Universe
The Spy/Secret Agent
The Man that nearly got chosen by a Green Lantern ring
The Universal Constant
The Heart of the Family (?)
etc.

I'm totally fine with Tim being THE detective.
I still consider the rest of the batfamily detectives too.
It's not Tim's fault when Nightwing writers don't write Dick as detective often enough.

[Tzigone]

Considering that Dick is

The Leader
The Better Batman/Better Than Batman
Batman's Greatest Success
The Man That Everyone Trusts
The Sexgod
The Butt
The Hottest Guy in the DC Universe
The Spy/Secret Agent
The Man that nearly got chosen by a Green Lantern ring
The Universal Constant
etc.

I'm totally fine with Tim being THE detective.
I still consider the rest of the batfamily detectives too.
It's not Tim's fault when Nightwing writers don't write Dick as detective often enough.

I hate what they've done to Dick. He used to be an intelligent, highly-competent leader and fantastic detective. Now he's frequently a manchild who can't commit, cheats on his significant others, make inappropriate jokes, can't speak like adult on serious issues, and gets far less respect from his peers and enemies. I feel like his IQ had dropped significantly and his ability to behave in a serious manner, be a thinker, or be a mature adult have all been diminished.

The Sexgod and the Butt are demotions and objectifying to me. Especially the latter. He's not-too-rarely perceived as a bimbo in the fandom, and that's just sad. Either that or the sweet ray of huggy delight who can't friggin grow up.

And it absolutely is the fault of certain writers writing Tim that they specifically diminish Dick (and everyone else) and have everyone else say how much more fantastic Tim is at it. It's like Selina and King - it's not her fault Bruce values only her and no one else brings love or light into his life - but it sure can make fans of others deeply resent and even dislike her.

I liked Tim in the '90s. Later on, he suffered from the same thing that makes me often dislike Batman - other people become less competent so he can look more impressive.

[Zaresh]

I've never seen Dick particularly depicted as a bad detective. Like he solved some cases in Seeley's Nightwing run and in Chuck Dixon's work. He helped spearhead the investigation in Murderer/Fugitive.

People who've read Lobdell's Jason work can probably cite some instances where he's done detective work.

It's just like all the Batfamily are agile but nobody is the acrobat like Dick is. Or all the Batfamily can fight well but nobody fights like Cass or Bruce does. It's not necessarily a slight to anyone, or it doesn't have to be.

It has happened several times, actually. It may sound surprising, but Lobdell pictures Jason as a quite intuitive detective who also has pretty nice observational skills. Last time that comes to mind it was very clear was in issue... 28? 29? When he entered that prison in Mexico on the current RHATO volume.

He's not a Sherlock, but he's a skilled detective when he needs to, definitely.

[SiegePerilous02]

Considering that Dick is

The Leader
The Acrobat
The Better Batman/Better Than Batman
Batman's Greatest Success
The Man That Everyone Trusts
The Sexgod
The Butt
The Hottest Guy in the DC Universe
The Spy/Secret Agent
The Man that nearly got chosen by a Green Lantern ring
The Universal Constant
The Heart of the Family (?)
etc.

I'm totally fine with Tim being THE detective.
I still consider the rest of the batfamily detectives too.
It's not Tim's fault when Nightwing writers don't write Dick as detective often enough.

None of that really factors in enough to really matter though. He most definitely isn't better than Batman or portrayed as such, beyond being a better leader (and that is rare these days). Pretty much everyone is offered a GL ring at some point, beyond that it's kind of an unimportant bit of comic book trivia, and the spy thing is a late addition because the rest of it fell by the wayside.

The detective skills being perceived to have taken enough of a hit that he's reduced to being the "charismatic nice guy" in the Robin Boy Band setup (Tim is the Smart One, Jason is the Brooding Sexy Bad Boy, etc.) in fan perceptions is pretty bad.

[Frontier]

In this one incident, maybe I can the merit in that type of story. What Bruce does to Dick is bad, but considering the extreme situation of his grief not totally unexpected and understandable. It could be impactful if it was a one time thing.

But writers seem to love one-uping each other when it comes to Bat-dickery. it wasn't a one time thing. We now have people in his own sub-forum saying Batman sucks because he's essentially a domestic abuser. Some of the examples aren't that far off the mark, so somewhere something seriously wrong happened. It's pretty ugly taking a superhero aimed primarily at kids and making him hit/manipulate his kids for the sake of...what?

I feel like if you looked at it from a wider standpoint the amount of times Batman has done stuff like this doesn't seem as ever-present as people make it out to be. Sure it stands out, badly, when it happens but it's not like it's the only way Batman ever interacts with the Batfamily.

I can't think of a single major Superhero property that is still primarily aimed at kids.

I think he'd moved into more complexity at least as early as the Bronze age, they just didn't go overboard with it there. He should have more emotional range than the campy Silver Age, but even in stuff with more heavy subject matter like Year One or Arkham Asylum, or the Nolan films, they leave the kid sidekicks out of it.

I've read some Bronze Age Batman, and there was some age-inappropriate stuff in there courtesy of Dennis O'Neil bringing back the broody grim avenger of the night.

Robin wouldn't have made sense in Year One (I think Year Two or some equivalent mentioned Bruce going to Haly's Circus though). Robin was in Dark Victory and Dark Knight Returns though.

None of that really factors in enough to really matter though. He most definitely isn't better than Batman or portrayed as such, beyond being a better leader (and that is rare these days). Pretty much everyone is offered a GL ring at some point, beyond that it's kind of an unimportant bit of comic book trivia, and the spy thing is a late addition because the rest of it fell by the wayside.

The detective skills being perceived to have taken enough of a hit that he's reduced to being the "charismatic nice guy" in the Robin Boy Band setup (Tim is the Smart One, Jason is the Brooding Sexy Bad Boy, etc.) in fan perceptions is pretty bad.

It's difficult for any character with all those traits to show them off on a consistent basis. They're traits that build up over time then needing to be at the forefront of each and every story.

I don't think being the "charismatic nice guy" means fans perceive him as a bad detective, just that it's not as major or as forwardly prominent a character trait compared to Bruce or Tim.

I hate what they've done to Dick. He used to be an intelligent, highly-competent leader and fantastic detective. Now he's frequently a manchild who can't commit, cheats on his significant others, make inappropriate jokes, can't speak like adult on serious issues, and gets far less respect from his peers and enemies. I feel like his IQ had dropped significantly and his ability to behave in a serious manner, be a thinker, or be a mature adult have all been diminished.

Most of what I've read of Dick has been of him being a guy who can commit. The manchild and the jokes are mostly an act. I'm just not really seeing this failure to be an adult or not getting taken seriously issue, because sometimes he ends up being the only adult in the room.

I can only think of two times he cheated on Starfire (making out with Raven, sleeping with Babs while engaged to Kori). Did he cheat on Babs?

[Jackalope89]

I feel like if you looked at it from a wider standpoint the amount of times Batman has done stuff like this doesn't seem as ever-present as people make it out to be. Sure it stands out, badly, when it happens but it's not like it's the only way Batman ever interacts with the Batfamily.

I can't think of a single major Superhero property that is still primarily aimed at kids.

I've read some Bronze Age Batman, and there was some age-inappropriate stuff in there courtesy of Dennis O'Neil bringing back the broody grim avenger of the night.

Robin wouldn't have made sense in Year One (I think Year Two or some equivalent mentioned Bruce going to Haly's Circus though). Robin was in Dark Victory and Dark Knight Returns though.

It's difficult for any character with all those traits to show them off on a consistent basis. They're traits that build up over time then needing to be at the forefront of each and every story.

I don't think being the "charismatic nice guy" means fans perceive him as a bad detective, just that it's not as major or as forwardly prominent a character trait compared to Bruce or Tim.

Most of what I've read of Dick has been of him being a guy who can commit. The manchild and the jokes are mostly an act. I'm just not really seeing this failure to be an adult or not getting taken seriously issue, because sometimes he ends up being the only adult in the room.

I can only think of two times he cheated on Starfire (making out with Raven, sleeping with Babs while engaged to Kori). Did he cheat on Babs?

Dick and Babs are so on again/off again, its about impossible to say. And I honestly hated the cheating on Kori part.

[E.Marie]

It has happened several times, actually. It may sound surprising, but Lobdell pictures Jason as a quite intuitive detective who also has pretty nice observational skills. Last time that comes to mind it was very clear was in issue... 28? 29? When he entered that prison in Mexico on the current RHATO volume.

He's not a Sherlock, but he's a skilled detective when he needs to, definitely.

Right, he pieced together the clues and made reasonable deductions that were spot on. Jason arrived at the prison, which was attacked years ago, and was able to correctly figure out what was used and by who. Based on the blood splatters, the way things were cut/broken and having seen one of the weapons in action enough to know it's handy work. And while the Iceberg plot didn't really show him doing detective work Jason was able to successfully outmaneuver a lot of people including Penguin and Batman. Even when he "lost" it didn't matter because Jason had already accomplished his goal. Which makes the times his intelligence is ignored all the more baffling.

[Ascended]

When did Dick "almost" get offered a Lantern ring?

[Zaresh]

Right, he pieced together the clues and made reasonable deductions that were spot on. Jason arrived at the prison, which was attacked years ago, and was able to correctly figure out what was used and by who. Based on the blood splatters, the way things were cut/broken and having seen one of the weapons in action enough to know it's handy work. And while the Iceberg plot didn't really show him doing detective work Jason was able to successfully outmaneuver a lot of people including Penguin and Batman. Even when he "lost" it didn't matter because Jason had already accomplished his goal. Which makes the times his intelligence is ignored all the more baffling.

And the best of it is, the writer doesn't blatantly tell you "He's so good, guys. Look how much of an outstanding detective he is!" Which usually is very intrusive writing (show, don't tell and all that jazz) and makes my eyes roll to no end.

This is also a trait that, fortunately, seems to be relatively constant between writers. Unless it's King; he's yet to write him as an intelligent and competent character. Or Tynion being not very subtle.

But before anyone else starts a "who's the smartest Robin" war, I'm going to go and say: they all are pretty darn smart, in different ways. It would be weird if they weren't, given their background. If they weren't by their nature, they gained that intelligence and knowledge over years of training and experience as successful vigilantes and "bats".