which Batfamily character(s) you don't like

[Lady Nightwing]

I didn't realise this was multiple choice so add another vote for Tim. I used to like him before the reboot but I detest him now. It's strange that Tynion is Tim's biggest fan but writes him as an unlikable tool.

[Agent Z]

Victim blaming? These are make believe comic book characters. Jason is fictional. His death was a dated editorial decision. You can criticize narratives that you do not agree with/do not feel fit in to an 80 year old concept of a man in bat ears.

By your logic, you can't hate Jason or Tim either because they are fictional. We can't hate, fictional characters, we can't love them, we can't be upset when they die or do something we consider out of character. We can't do anything to them because they're fictional. See the problem here? This excuse is and always has been a cop out at worst, meaningless statement at best.

As for Dick Grayson- I think you're over analyzing a character that, for a solid bulk of his lifespan, has belonged to children.

How is that even remotely relevant to what I said?

[Gotham citizen]

Actually we should never hate and this rule should not be valid only about the comics. Having say that, yes we shouldn't hate a comic character, because the hate deprive us of the necessary lucidity to analyze rationally the fictional reality of the story.

[Flash Gordon]

By your logic, you can't hate Jason or Tim either because they are fictional. We can't hate, fictional characters, we can't love them, we can't be upset when they die or do something we consider out of character. We can't do anything to them because they're fictional. See the problem here? This excuse is and always has been a cop out at worst, meaningless statement at best.

Precisely, they are fictional. Mainstream comics are a very different animal from other media, a single character will have lots and lots of different creators working on them- diverse voices. IMO that's what makes comic books so rad.

How is that even remotely relevant to what I said?

You're applying real world implications to a status quo designed to be a fun adventure story for children. Sure, in the "real world" a child should not be working with the Batman and in constant situations of peril- but Batman and Robin are not real and that only applies to them if forced upon them. Dick Grayson/Robin was not abused by Batman, they had colourful nonsense adventures battling the Penguin and space aliens. The world they operate in was/is a fun comic book world full of wacky villains and exciting antics.

[SiegePerilous02]

You're applying real world implications to a status quo designed to be a fun adventure story for children. Sure, in the "real world" a child should not be working with the Batman and in constant situations of peril- but Batman and Robin are not real and that only applies to them if forced upon them. Dick Grayson/Robin was not abused by Batman, they had colourful nonsense adventures battling the Penguin and space aliens. The world they operate in was/is a fun comic book world full of wacky villains and exciting antics.

I think it's really the gradual darkening of the Bat-mythos in the 80s and beyond that casts a pall over the Dynamic Duo days, particularly the death of Jason and how the writers wrote Bruce as handling the fallout (victim blaming, lashing out at Dick).
Before that it was generally exactly as you describe, there were moments of dickery on everyone's parts but that's not unusual for any superhero of that time period. It wasn't anything serious, especially as it made no pretense of being realistic.

Bruce's intervention in Dick's life should overall be a good thing within the context of their whacky fictional universe, the fact that we are even having this discussion is proof that something has gone seriously wrong with how DC presents Batman. It really becomes a problem after Jason's death. You really shouldn't do that in canon without the intention of putting an end to the kid sidekick thing for good (like Bucky's original death was) or without fully committing to the idea that Batman is ineffectual and does more harm than good to these kids. Which they didn't want to do and kept trucking along with more kids, and having it both ways while making Bruce more of an *******. The whole package is ultimately unsatisfying IMO, and kind of breaks the concept.

[Agent Z]

Precisely, they are fictional. Mainstream comics are a very different animal from other media, a single character will have lots and lots of different creators working on them- diverse voices. IMO that's what makes comic books so rad.

And yet that didn't stop you having a problem with multiple Robins.

You're applying real world implications to a status quo designed to be a fun adventure story for children.

Batman has not simply been a "fun adventure story for children" for decades. This is a character whose story frequently deals with death, trauma, torture, corruption, depression and whole bunch of stuff that is not simply kiddie fluff. I am not the one injecting real world implications into Batman. The writers are.

Sure, in the "real world" a child should not be working with the Batman and in constant situations of peril- but Batman and Robin are not real and that only applies to them if forced upon them. Dick Grayson/Robin was not abused by Batman, they had colourful nonsense adventures battling the Penguin and space aliens. The world they operate in was/is a fun comic book world full of wacky villains and exciting antics.

I don't think you understand what I mean when I called Bruce abusive.

To clarify, I was talking about stuff like this:

[L.H.]

I don't think half the people who voted for him had read him though. I'm inclined to say the same about Jason, Tim and Damian to some degree: limited contact with the characters, most probably. But maybe I'm wrong.

I've read enough with Duke, and I still don't like him. I don't read RHATO or Teen Titans (since Glass started) but I still love Jason and Damian. Liking a character or not is just a matter of personal taste, to me, at least. I never found him appealing, since Robin War.

[SiegePerilous02]

Batman has not simply been a "fun adventure story for children" for decades. This is a character whose story frequently deals with death, trauma, torture, corruption, depression and whole bunch of stuff that is not simply kiddie fluff. I don't care what Batman was designed to be or what you think he is in your head. I'm criticizing what he is now.

I don't know that that's necessarily a good thing. I don't think writers of superhero comics are always equipped to handle such topics as much as they think they are, not without doing damage to characters in the process through accumulation. Stuff like the scan you posted. There seems to be a lack of foresight in publishing such a comic and having it be in the main canon. You just had Batman strike his kid guys, you can't walk back from that. Was the story you are trying to tell really worth the end result for him?

At times, it comes across as juvenile attempts to seem "mature." Look, comics are violent and "realistic" now and the heroes are traumatized assholes. Basically adults injecting "adult" themes into children's stuff to justify their continued interest in fantasy stories about a man dressed as a bat who drives a rocket car.

[Flash Gordon]

I think it's really the gradual darkening of the Bat-mythos in the 80s and beyond that casts a pall over the Dynamic Duo days, particularly the death of Jason and how the writers wrote Bruce as handling the fallout (victim blaming, lashing out at Dick).
Before that it was generally exactly as you describe, there were moments of dickery on everyone's parts but that's not unusual for any superhero of that time period. It wasn't anything serious, especially as it made no pretense of being realistic.

Bruce's intervention in Dick's life should overall be a good thing within the context of their whacky fictional universe, the fact that we are even having this discussion is proof that something has gone seriously wrong with how DC presents Batman. It really becomes a problem after Jason's death. You really shouldn't do that in canon without the intention of putting an end to the kid sidekick thing for good (like Bucky's original death was) or without fully committing to the idea that Batman is ineffectual and does more harm than good to these kids. Which they didn't want to do and kept trucking along with more kids, and having it both ways while making Bruce more of an *******. The whole package is ultimately unsatisfying IMO, and kind of breaks the concept.

I agree completely. It really does break the concept.

[Flash Gordon]

And yet that didn't stop you having a problem with multiple Robins.

I think you're getting confused with being unhappy with bad direction and narrative choices with actual interest/disinterest in a character within that narrative.

Batman has not simply been a "fun adventure story for children" for decades. This is a character whose story frequently deals with death, trauma, torture, corruption, depression and whole bunch of stuff that is not simply kiddie fluff. I am not the one injecting real world implications into Batman. The writers are.

"Kiddie stuff" is a heck of a way to dismiss a lot of wonderful work, by talented creators. Batman can be a character all ages enjoy, but the roots of the character are always going to be a children's character. That isn't an insult at all, that should be considered when approaching the character.

I don't think you understand what I mean when I called Bruce abusive.

To clarify, I was talking about stuff like this:

This is awful, yeah- it's also retconning their relationship to fit a grimmer narrative.

[Sergard]

[...]
I don't think you understand what I mean when I called Bruce abusive.

To clarify, I was talking about stuff like this:

I can't express how hurtful it is to read Dick's "Jason wasn't me. I was a trained acrobat. i could think quickly in perilous situations. But why did you let him become Robin before he was ready?".
Like being a trained acrobat would have meant anything in Jason's case. This is just writers bragging that Dick Grayson is superior to a 15-year old street kid that was tortured and murdered.
This is writers setting out to shift the blame on Jason by retconning him into the "violent and stupid Robin that got himself killed because he wasn't good enough".

[CPSparkles]

As expected Dick gets all the love.
As expected Jason, Damian and Duke are scrapping bottom.
Surprised to see Tim so low.

[Zaresh]

I've read enough with Duke, and I still don't like him. I don't read RHATO or Teen Titans (since Glass started) but I still love Jason and Damian. Liking a character or not is just a matter of personal taste, to me, at least. I never found him appealing, since Robin War.

Which is why I said "half". I know some people have read him, but looking at how many of them comment in the threads of his books, not a lot had followed him. And in order to like a character, you need to know them to some degree. I bet you at least have read Batman and Robin or Under the Hood for those two characters. Those two books are pretty determining for his character. For Duke, as he is now, I think Batman and the Signal is more important than Robin War would be (I may be wrong, in any case, in all cases. This is me trying to sound convincing with her bulls**t reasoning :^D).

[Tzigone]

I think another aspect is competition. Dick didn't replace anyone or take the spotlight from anyone. That doesn't mean everyone likes him, of course. Those that prefer a loner Batman or those that think he's done their character wrong are more likely to dislike him. And, of course, sometimes you just don't like a character for whatever reason. I think that one is kinda difficult with longer-running characters (especially that have appeared in other media), as they've been depicted enough ways for one to only like/dislike certain versions (certainly applies to me) and then the person may vote on either current version or an old version or whatever. Also Dick can't really be seen as redundant or copy-cat, since he was the first.

Barbara could be said to have replaced Betty (though their roles were very different), but if she ever developed a strong following as Bat-Girl, that ended long ago in the era of rotating audiences. Simple longevity helps, too, since people think the characters are "supposed" to be there because they always have been as long as they can remember.

Duke is the only introduced-in-New52 member I have read. While I can't say I dislike any others (I don't know them), I certainly don't like them (I don't know them), and none have sounded interesting enough to prompt me to read about them (particularly given my problems with how the several already-existing members of the Batfam were treated in the reboot - it would take something really good sounding to overcome my aversion to reading them depicted that way).

And, yeah, there is a point of diminishing returns for some. It can get too crowded for some readers. I definitely prefer Barbara and Dick more separate from Batman in their stories and Tim should be going that way, too. Including moving to other cities. Staking their own claims, making cities their own, and no longer functioning as sidekicks or support to Batman in Batman's city. The growing up and moving away to be independent heroes thing was a big plus for Dick to me (and I do feel he regressed in that regard in later eras). If every character could support their own book, that would be more okay. When they can't, there ends up with a page-time struggle between characters and some fans will resent that their character is shunted in favor of another one.

But also, especially for the Robins (and all legacies, really), I get very frustrated and feel they get pitted against each other by writers as well as fans (which can make you dislike the character your favorite is being put down to further). And especially with Robins I feel that writers in recent decades have compartmentalized them. Each one feels less fully fleshed out because personality traits or skill are parceled out between them - at least when they appear together. I feel Dick is most hurt by this because he was first and had the full gamut of skills to start with and they've been reduced. It didn't happen when Jason was introduced or when Tim was, but it did happen at some point. This is particularly overt with Tim as the detective to me.

[SixSpeedSamurai]

As expected Dick gets all the love.
As expected Jason, Damian and Duke are scrapping bottom.
Surprised to see Tim so low.

I would guess Damian fans voting for Tim and vice versa