View Poll Results: which Batfamily member you don't like ?

Voters
160. You may not vote on this poll
  • Batman (Bruce Wayne)

    18 11.25%
  • Nightwing (Dick Grayson)

    9 5.63%
  • Drake (Tim Drake)

    36 22.50%
  • Robin (Damian Wayne)

    49 30.63%
  • Batwoman (Kathy Kane)

    31 19.38%
  • Huntress (Helena Bertinelli)

    15 9.38%
  • Orphan (Cassandra Cain)

    19 11.88%
  • Batiglrl (Barbara Gordon)

    15 9.38%
  • Signal (Duke Thomas)

    70 43.75%
  • Red Hood (Jason Todd)

    37 23.13%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 6 of 16 FirstFirst ... 2345678910 ... LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 229
  1. #76
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    3,222

    Default

    There's a select number of modern stories where Batman goes a little overboard on things, but for the majority of 80 years he's always been a heroic force for good and a caring and compassionate individual.
    We'll have to disagree. I feel like it's a large number of stories over the past 20-25 years where he has been like this. Sure, that leaves a majority of history not like this, as you said but not a "select number" in the modern stories.

    The Batman get rough and tough, but he would not be effectual if he just held hands with everybody.
    This would make more sense if it we were complaining about the way he treats his enemies, but I'm much about how he treats his family, friends, and allies. The way he treats them often does nothing to make him more effectual. And when it does, it's usually shown that his mission is more important than they are and he's willing to use them as tools for that mission.

    Dick Grayson grounds him in a way that is really needed.
    He was grounded fine before Dick. It's only in later years he was ever in position that he retroactively needed somone else to keep him that way.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 04-06-2020 at 10:29 AM.

  2. #77
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    9,116

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    You're right. Then I guess the reason is because they're the least controversial. The most Dick did was taking some Robin attributes from other Robin such as Tim's modern costumes, bo, and Superboy, but those are in other media. The most Babs did was becoming Batgirl again. Personality-wise they're the "good kids". Some people can't take mouthy kids like Jason, Steph, and Damian, even if they don't kill people.

    There's the feud between Tim and Damian fans, the debate whether Jason and Kate should be in the family, whether Cass is too strong and if Duke is even necessary.

    Then there's Bruce whose writers sometimes can't seem to differentiate between being introvert and a jerk or too focused on one side than the other he comes off as a jerk



    I like him in Golden, Silver, Bronze age, the movies, I have no problem there (well, except that one time he chose to date Talia who's around the same age as Dick. That's creepy)

    When they make him too obsessed on the mission that he forgets the people who support him, and they make him do this over and over, even if there's a pretty big interval, even if it's caused by grief, of course, he's not gonna be likable.

    It's interesting and understandable the first time, but if it keeps happening, it's a problem.
    The only thing Dick ever took from Tim was the a stick.
    That modern Robin suit with tights re-design was designed was inspired and redesigned for Dick Grayson for his return to robin in the Burton movies.
    Commissioned for Dick Grayson by WB
    So it was Dick's suit that DC borrowed for Tim's introduction.

  3. #78
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    9,116

    Default

    I wonder how many of the fans voting for Duke have ever read anything with Duke?
    Shame.

  4. #79
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    9,037

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Bruce's most dickish and unheroic actions aren't failing to save Jason* or having more Robins. It's being physically and emotionally abusive towards Dick (in fact he arguably gets treated the worse of Bruce's kids by Bruce himself), creating anti-JL weapons that he keeps to himself, every time he acts like he's the law in Gotham and his disastrous attempts to single-handedly police the entire superhero community. It has nothing to do with who the Robin is or how many of them he's had.

    * Though I think there tends to be some victim blaming from some fans when it comes to Jason's death.
    Victim blaming? These are make believe comic book characters. Jason is fictional. His death was a dated editorial decision. You can criticize narratives that you do not agree with/do not feel fit in to an 80 year old concept of a man in bat ears.

    As for Dick Grayson- I think you're over analyzing a character that, for a solid bulk of his lifespan, has belonged to children.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 04-06-2020 at 10:17 AM.

  5. #80
    Incredible Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Posts
    583

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    There's a select number of modern stories where Batman goes a little overboard on things, but for the majority of 80 years he's always been a heroic force for good and a caring and compassionate individual.
    […]
    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    We'll have a diagree. I feel like it's a large number of stories over the past 20-25 years where he has been like this. Sure, that leaves a majority of history not like this, as you said but not a "select number" in the modern stories.
    […]
    I think the truth is in the middle: there are a selected number a modern stories where the writes deliberately and theatrically Batman like a fanatic sociopath, who cares only about his crusade, but those stories lead the way for all the following ones, because a writer can't write a scene where Bruce says: «Bruce Wayne doesn't exist: he is only a mask I use to act in plain day» (it happened in Murderer) and in the next issue describe Bruce like a happy and caring character, like he was almost all his history. He can't because it wouldn't be coherent and he can't because if he wrote a sentence like the one I have quoted, it means this is the way he sees the character and I fear that if the DC continues to give the title to writers who write Batman in that way, it means that is how DC sees the character; which is worst.

  6. #81
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    9,037

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    We'll have a diagree. I feel like it's a large number of stories over the past 20-25 years where he has been like this. Sure, that leaves a majority of history not like this, as you said but not a "select number" in the modern stories.

    This would make more sense if it we were complaining about the way he treats his enemies, but I'm much about how he treats his family, friends, and allies. The way he treats them often does nothing to make him more effectual. And when it does, it's usually shown that his mission is more important than they are and he's willing to use them as tools for that mission.

    He was grounded fine before Dick. It's only in later years he was ever in position that he retroactively needed somone else to keep him that way.
    I can agree with where you're coming from. I get annoyed by the overly edgy stuff. I wish creators could see the finer line between dark/introspective, and edgelord.

    My "select number" comment was being modest, and there has been a lot more junk in the vein of edgy nonsense.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 04-06-2020 at 10:25 AM.

  7. #82
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    12,586

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Bruce's most dickish and unheroic actions aren't failing to save Jason* or having more Robins. It's being physically and emotionally abusive towards Dick (in fact he arguably gets treated the worse of Bruce's kids by Bruce himself), creating anti-JL weapons that he keeps to himself, every time he acts like he's the law in Gotham and his disastrous attempts to single-handedly police the entire superhero community. It has nothing to do with who the Robin is or how many of them he's had.

    * Though I think there tends to be some victim blaming from some fans when it comes to Jason's death.
    Bruce wasn't really physically and emotionally abusive towards Dick before the COIE retcon of the nature of their fallout and the aftermath of Jason's death though. At least not how he was broadly characterized.

    It's basically not even the same characters after certain points. I have to agree with Flash Gordon that fans can be allowed to call BS on what they think fits or not. This has all become habitual behavior for Batman at this point, but it's really kind of stupid that that's happened with an adventure hero that used to be aimed primarily at children.

  8. #83
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    3,222

    Default

    Bruce wasn't really physically and emotionally abusive towards Dick before the COIE retcon of the nature of their fallout and the aftermath of Jason's death though. At least not how he was broadly characterized.
    Well, I'd say after COIE re-characterization of Dick's split and before Jason's death for emotional abuse. But, of course, it wasn't 100%. Well, it'll never be 100%, of course. But even in the mid-90s, it seemed like things were a better between them. Still some bad, but better than the 1987-1989 time period. But then by or at the end of the 90s...

    It's basically not even the same characters after certain points.
    This is true, and probably very much an artifact of very long period of characters being written, multiple authors, and multiple editorial forces with different aims. It's certainly why, when I declare I like a character, I usually specify which era. So many are characterized just completely differently at different times by different writers.

    * Though I think there tends to be some victim blaming from some fans when it comes to Jason's death.
    For me, most of the victim-blaming lies at DC's feet more than the characters'. I know that's probably not fair, exactly, but when "God" (well, word of God) has decreed that the victim really is responsible, as happened with Jason, I'm going to blame "God" a lot when all characters parrot the line. Also, I do think sometimes fans go the other way with Jason, too (and all characters, really, and I'm not immune) and don't blame certain characters for horrific things they do because said character has been through something terrible themselves.

  9. #84
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    3,081

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    Victim blaming? These are make believe comic book characters. Jason is fictional. His death was a dated editorial decision. You can criticize narratives that you do not agree with/do not feel fit in to an 80 year old concept of a man in bat ears.

    As for Dick Grayson- I think you're over analyzing a character that, for a solid bulk of his lifespan, has belonged to children.
    Victim blaming. yes. This issue has been discussed plenty here.
    No matter if you blame editorial or not, the characters speak, and are given voice (Edit: if you use this card for justifying this issue, you can use it for every other aspect of a character. It's always what editorial or the writer think, not what said character thinks). And that voice blames Jason for his death, has blamed Jason for his death. When he did nothing every other Robin would have done. He was villainized (is that an English word?) post-death in the stories that spoke about him, making him an angry, arrogant, reckless child and justifying his death. Even by himself.

    It's painful, kind of infuriating, to some of us.
    (Edit: I don't think Bruce was the worst ofender, though)
    Last edited by Zaresh; 04-06-2020 at 01:05 PM.
    Always changing; ever the same.

    This is my Tumblr. Sometimes I post stuff there.

  10. #85
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    774

    Default

    I actually like Duke but i have never read about him... Seeing how he's disliked by many, i can tell he's really shity written. I like the costume and over all how he patrols the city at day and stuff, i was like finaly a decent black character but it looks like he bombed like the rest...

  11. #86
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    3,081

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurz View Post
    I actually like Duke but i have never read about him... Seeing how he's disliked by many, i can tell he's really shity written. I like the costume and over all how he patrols the city at day and stuff, i was like finaly a decent black character but it looks like he bombed like the rest...
    I don't think half the people who voted for him had read him though. I'm inclined to say the same about Jason, Tim and Damian to some degree: limited contact with the characters, most probably. But maybe I'm wrong.
    Always changing; ever the same.

    This is my Tumblr. Sometimes I post stuff there.

  12. #87
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    9,037

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    Victim blaming. yes. This issue has been discussed plenty here.
    No matter if you blame editorial or not, the characters speak, and are given voice (Edit: if you use this card for justifying this issue, you can use it for every other aspect of a character. It's always what editorial or the writer think, not what said character thinks). And that voice blames Jason for his death, has blamed Jason for his death. When he did nothing every other Robin would have done. He was villainized (is that an English word?) post-death in the stories that spoke about him, making him an angry, arrogant, reckless child and justifying his death. Even by himself.

    It's painful, kind of infuriating, to some of us.
    (Edit: I don't think Bruce was the worst ofender, though)
    Jason Todd can not be "victim blamed", he's not a real person. He's a fictional teenager in a comic book story.

    You can disagree with the narrative choices, which it seems like you're doing too. I agree that Jason Todd as a character doesn't work as he's been presented. It is because it is a house built on sand. A character saying something silly or having a story that is 'meh' is very different from the long term narrative damage of having a child die on Batman's watch (a child that he is legally responsible for). That's breaking the core concept. It is very suddenly bringing extreme, real world consequences into the adventures of Batman and Robin and their colourful world. Which is unfair in an ongoing narrative.

    Of course none of this really would matter if we were not locked into this very strict idea of continuity.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 04-06-2020 at 01:43 PM.

  13. #88
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    3,222

    Default

    Jason Todd can not be "victim blamed", he's not a real person. He's a fictional teenager in a comic book story.
    That's not true. Within the narrative, he absolutely can be victim-blamed, just like a character can be raped or murdered or have any number of other things happen to them.

    It irritates me that characters did that to Jason - but frankly, that's not even on the top 5 list for worst things most of them have done. And Jason has done horrible things, too, since his resurrection. I think the "it's Jason's fault" bothers me a lot more from DC than from characters because of the very fact that DC is the word of God, is treated as "factual" and "true" in a way that characters are not. Characters can be disagreed with. Pushing a narrative that simply doesn't match the reality I saw in the issues bothers me a lot more. I feel like I'm being gaslit or something - want to scream "there are four lights."
    Last edited by Tzigone; 04-06-2020 at 01:49 PM.

  14. #89
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    9,037

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    That's not true. Within the narrative, he absolutely can be victim-blamed, just like a character can be raped or murdered or have any number of other things happen to them.
    My post was in regards to the idea that we, the mighty readers, are victim blaming- not inuniverse narratives.

  15. #90
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    3,081

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    Jason Todd can not be "victim blamed", he's not a real person. He's a fictional teenager in a comic book story.

    You can disagree with the narrative choices, which it seems like you're doing too. I agree that Jason Todd as a character doesn't work as he's been presented. It is because it is a house built on sand. A character saying something silly or having a story that is 'meh' is very different from the long term narrative damage of having a child die on Batman's watch (a child that he is legally responsible for). That's breaking the core concept. It is very suddenly bringing extreme, real world consequences into the adventures of Batman and Robin and their colourful world. Which is unfair in an ongoing narrative.

    Of course none of this really would matter if we were not locked into this very strict idea of continuity.
    Then no character is responsible of what we think about then. Because all of then are fictional. You can't dislike then, or hate then, because they're just written that way.

    And any story exploring real life concepts and problems is invalid because they're fictional.

    Edit, again: don't get me wrong. I don't think we should blame some character for how they're written. It ultimately is the writer's fault. But we're discussing here with certain points as base for the discussion. And one of them is that the characters are meant to speak and behave as they were/are now.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 04-07-2020 at 12:21 AM.
    Always changing; ever the same.

    This is my Tumblr. Sometimes I post stuff there.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •