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  1. #1
    Fantastic Member SchismOfMadroces's Avatar
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    Default What makes a god? Divinity and Mythology in the Krakoa era

    Since the discussion of godhood has blown up the Hellions thread, and there is a lot of interesting discussion to be had regarding divinity, mythology, and godhood in the Krakoan era, I figured (with Veitha's encouragement!) that I'd shift the topic to its own thread.

    What is it that makes a god then?

    Is Storm an actual goddess? Black Panther's series paints her as such as Hadari Yao, being directly empowered by the faith, prayers, and belief of Wakanda. Does being born from human preclude her from being divine? How do gods come about?

    Are mutants in general approaching apotheosis? They've conquered death through The Five, which I've previously likened to ambrosia or Idunn's apples, which are how the Olympian and Norse gods maintain their immortality in their respective mythologies. They have a cult following amongst humans, but this is how many religions get their start.

    Nightcrawler is also talking about founding a new religion for Krakoa. While there isn't much on this yet, what sort of divinity do you see being central to it? Do you think the mutant religion will be an offshoot from human religions or something completely new? Will mutants place themselves as their own gods?

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    I remember that the Greek gods were immortal and did not need any external force to continue their lives. Need a certain means to maintain youth should be the gods of northern Europe.

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    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    As it is a comic and not real life, gods are defined by the characters themselves inside the comics.

    If you want to talk precisely about Storm, my personal idea is that you don't become a god, you are revealed as a god. You always have been a god. There is not social climbing.

    I don't understand the controversy: is it real important? It sounds like these threads: 'My fav is a omega. I have proofs.'

  4. #4
    Fantastic Member SchismOfMadroces's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PotniaTheron View Post
    I remember that the Greek gods were immortal and did not need any external force to continue their lives. Need a certain means to maintain youth should be the gods of northern Europe.
    It can be nebulous, but ambrosia and nectar (the food and drink of the gods) could be considered the source of the Olympians' immortality and longevity. Heracles was born as a mortal demigod, but was given ambrosia upon his death as a mortal, and thus achieved full god status.

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    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    With respect to Storm...she was also imbued with Asgardian divinty/godhood by Loki.
    So...there is precedent.

    In the Marvel Universe, Being and Becoming Gods is at the whim and imagination of the writers. There is no wrong way or right way.
    If it's on the page and in panel...it's canon. Some readers just have to deal...or not.
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 04-02-2020 at 08:12 AM.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  6. #6
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    With respect to Storm...she was also imbued with Asgardian divinty/godhood by Loki.
    So...there is precedent.

    In the Marvel Universe, Being and Becoming Gods is at the whim and imagination of the writers. There is no wrong way or right way.
    If it's on the page and in panel...it's canon. Some readers just have to deal...or not.
    Yes. There is also precedent for mutants to become Gods, such as Selene and Syrin. And it's canon so yeah.

    You can ascend to godhood in the MU, the whole Orishas pantheon has been established to have been humans in primordial times. Faith and prayers are powerful like that in the MU. We'll see what this means with Kurt making a mutant religion, Apoc starting mutant magic and such.

  7. #7
    Libre. People Of The Earth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SchismOfMadroces View Post
    Since the discussion of godhood has blown up the Hellions thread, and there is a lot of interesting discussion to be had regarding divinity, mythology, and godhood in the Krakoan era, I figured (with Veitha's encouragement!) that I'd shift the topic to its own thread.

    What is it that makes a god then?
    Thank you for carrying that conversation over this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by SchismOfMadroces View Post
    Is Storm an actual goddess?
    She is not an actual goddess, just one in name only.

    Quote Originally Posted by SchismOfMadroces View Post
    Black Panther's series paints her as such as Hadari Yao, being directly empowered by the faith, prayers, and belief of Wakanda.
    Interestingly, it's a question I've been asking, how is it she's vulnerable to man weaponry and skills so much if she's a goddess? why doesn't she manifests her divine powers the one time her mutant gifts are muffled by power dampeners over in Marauder #1?

    Quote Originally Posted by SchismOfMadroces View Post
    Does being born from human preclude her from being divine?
    It doesn't, as long as said individual transcends the limitations of his/her humanity to reach said divinity.
    Typically human needs and wants, physiology and life-span, the likes.

    Quote Originally Posted by SchismOfMadroces View Post
    How do gods come about?
    Unless being born out of the divine themselves, people Don't become gods.
    Acquiring godlike powers and becoming a god are not the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by SchismOfMadroces View Post
    Are mutants in general approaching apotheosis?
    No.
    Not in general.
    The average mutant is susceptible and submitted to the same limitations than the rest of humanity.
    They have the same basic needs, they can be killed as well.
    Living in better conditions, having access to better technologies and healthcare doesn't make them gods.

    Quote Originally Posted by SchismOfMadroces View Post
    They've conquered death through The Five, which I've previously likened to ambrosia or Idunn's apples, which are how the Olympian and Norse gods maintain their immortality in their respective mythologies.
    First off, the Resurrection Protocols are still being debated even in-universe, as to whether they are the real deal or a fancy way of cloning people.
    And Don't forget that the Five are entirely relying on the science of Mr Sinister and Forge to have bodies to create, and minds to transfer into them.
    The assertion mutants have conquered death is both too strong and inaccurate, Science has conquered death in the case of the RPs.

    Secondly, even if we go from the postulate that the RPs are genuine resurrection, it remains a mechanism that is external to all mutants, one that is manufactured the same way technology in 616 allow people to upload their consciousness to another body in order to cheat death like Tony Stark do.
    It's not mystical or divine in nature, like the means used by the asgardians and the olympians you cited.

    Now, can divinity be born out of Science and technology? It's Something I Don't adhere to personnally, but it's up for debate, sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by SchismOfMadroces View Post
    They have a cult following amongst humans, but this is how many religions get their start.
    That's not proof of godhood either, individuals have been worshipped by the masses since times immemorial, like the Pharaohs of Egypt for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by SchismOfMadroces View Post
    Nightcrawler is also talking about founding a new religion for Krakoa. While there isn't much on this yet, what sort of divinity do you see being central to it?
    Beyond the Phoenix, I Don't see what entity could be worshipped as a god by the mutants on Krakoa.
    I suppose the Five could eventually end-up worshipped too as gods, but that would be as misguided as sapiens worshipping mutants as gods.
    It is more likely that respective traditional faiths on the island will be adapted, reshaped, to be compatible with what the Kraked are doing on their island.

    Quote Originally Posted by SchismOfMadroces View Post
    Do you think the mutant religion will be an offshoot from human religions or something completely new?
    Possible outcomes yes, as I mentionned above.

    Quote Originally Posted by SchismOfMadroces View Post
    Will mutants place themselves as their own gods?
    As I said, maybe the Five could end-up in that position, but that would be misguided and they still wouldn't be gods.
    Being worshipped by the masses isn't proof of godhood in itself.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

  8. #8
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    The explanation from Black Panther is that Storm’s godhood is a divine gift separate from her mutation. Coates retconned the Wakandan pantheon into being humans birthed by the Elder Gods who unlocked their power through faith, so I think he’s implying Storm has the same origin except she’s a descendant of an Elder God (most likely Oshtur). It could also mean that Oshtur is just a patron of her bloodline like has been stated in other books.

    Then he basically established her affinity for White Magic as being her divine power, which is what she used when she defeated Adversary. Does she meet the conventional definition of goddess? Not really because she doesn’t have a divine soul and she’s not a direct descendant of Gaia. But she does naturally channel the power of an Elder God which is reflected in her white hair and blue eyes, so I’d consider her a lesser god but still one worthy of worship.

  9. #9
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    Unless being born out of the divine themselves, people Don't become gods.
    Acquiring godlike powers and becoming a god are not the same thing.
    I mean, Siryn explicitly became a god, but...

  10. #10
    Mighty Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    I think mutants could be considered gods in the sense that the Greek pantheon of gods or the Asgard ones are gods but they would have to become inmortal or get way more durability by their own powers. For example Hércules, Thor, Loki can live during millennia without much trouble and even if they are killed they can come back using their own force of their people, I think the asgardians called it the "Odin force" I don´t think there are a lot of mutants that share this characteristics as their body is still quite fragile, yes, they developed a way to get back from death but this doesn´t mean they naturally should be able to do so. With a few exceptions like Syrin who actually became an avatar of a god and Franklin Richards who Will definitely live until the end of the universe and maybe Legion, Proteus and Jean with the Phoenix force, the others have yet to get to this stage by their own means or powers. In this sense the eternals have an edge over mutants imo.
    "The time for subtlety is passing. Now is the time for change." [New Mutants (Vol. 1) #38]

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    With respect to the Five, what's the difference between what they do and what someone like Mr Sinister or Miles Warren/the Jackal does? Sinister and Miles have been bringing back(resurrecting) people since forever. So what is the difference between the mutants and non-mutants that have been brought back? And why is artificial resurrection considered a sign of divinity in some and not others? I like Storm but I don't consider her a full on Goddess, just a powerful omega level mutant. And if her ability to come back to life after death via the Five is some sort of evidence of her supposed godhood; then why doesn't that apply to anyone else. Are all mutants defacto "gods" now?

  12. #12
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    I think that, in divinity, there is a sense of mystery and wonder that inspire believers. It's the modern acception of word 'god', whereas gods in Greek mythology were characters of fairytales.

    So it's true, they are more 'gods' in the Greek mythology sense as most of the world isn't polytheistic anymore. But there isn't a lot of mystery about the Resurrection process. And frankly I don't know what, spiritually, have the mutants to offer to the world. Crucible? Miraculous drug? Morally, intellectually, they are not better than the humans without a X-gene.

    I have read comics long enough for being not very impressed by the mutants.
    I'm just disappointed by their lack of humanity now.

  13. #13
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    I mean, Siryn explicitly became a god, but...
    Selene did it, even if it was brief.

    I'm going to repeat some things that I said in the other thread. So the main argument against Storm currently being a Goddess is that a God requires superhuman physiology (where has this been stated?) and that you need to be born a God or part of God's pantheon (again, it needs proof). Also, the Hadari Yao thing is quite new so we don't know what Storm stats are when she's in the that status. But it's been canonically established that:

    • Humans and non-naturally born Gods can ascend to godhood, like the Orishas the Gods of Wakanda, which include the Goddes Bast. It's been implied that this is what's happening to Storm right now thanks to the faith of Wakandans (see Black Panther);
    • The definition of God is not tied only to genetics like for the Asgardians. The Goddess Morrigan has been established to be essentially a title, and both humans and mutants can ascend to Morrigan status and become full-on Gods, like Syrin did (see X-Factor) assuming all of her powers, including a God-like physiology;
    • Selene ascended to godhood in Necrosha, consuming the souls of the Resurrected mutants. Her ascension was so powerful that it reverberated in the whole spiritual realm;
    • Thor has made quite clear (alongside other stuff like Chaos War) that there are countless pantheons and, also, that the main thing that powers and makes Gods is prayers and faith, and also that Gods can appear in all forms and be born of different species/on different planets and not only from established species like the 10 Realms species or Olympus. So a new Goddess arising from the mutant population is not that far fecthed;


    As for mutants becoming godlike, well they have the connection to cosmic forces and innate mutant magic, so who knows. They might have a way to ascend like Selene did.

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    How do some view The Immortal Hulk? It seems he legit cannot be killed, everytime he dies he resurrects and he does without outside intervention. Can he be considered divine in some sense?

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    Being thick

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