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  1. #61
    Fantastic Member Cruelrain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    And be able to overcome death, either through resurrection and/or reincarnation and/or transcending death via another form.
    Those are recurring staples we can see in the pantheons depicted in Marvel comics.

    It's interesting how you likened what happened to Storm to what happened with Selene in the other thread, because the latter received a power-up through the ritual she practiced. Same thing happened to Storm, does that makes her a goddess? I Don't think it did for Selene, and I Don't think it did for Storm either.
    This made me think about things omg

    going to stream false god by Taylor Swift

  2. #62
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    And be able to overcome death, either through resurrection and/or reincarnation and/or transcending death via another form.
    Those are recurring staples we can see in the pantheons depicted in Marvel comics.



    It's interesting how you likened what happened to Storm to what happened with Selene in the other thread, because the latter received a power-up through the ritual she practiced. Same thing happened to Storm, does that makes her a goddess? I Don't think it did for Selene, and I Don't think it did for Storm either.



    The Orishas are beings who transcended their mortal limitations (biological wants and needs, death and the test of time), that's not the case of Storm at all.
    She isn't an Orisha, or another godlike being: eating, breathing, sleeping are still imperative to her, she's still subject to time (aging) and death (vulnerable to man-made weapons and skills, among other things who can kill her).



    As I said in the other thread, Morrigan is a divinity jumping from host to host, more or less with their assent, more or less with Freedom of action attached to it.
    It's a form of possession if we are being honest, not just a title transition, but I digress.
    Bottom line being the essence of the Morrigan is what's being divine, not the host who's harboring it.

    Furthermore, we know this isn't what's occuring with Storm, she's not the conduit for a god(ess) so her case is different than the one of Syrin with Morrigan.



    Selene performed a mystical ritual that gave her godlike-power, she didn't become a god herself, that's just abusing the word.
    Magical beings on Earth were alerted because of the mystical nature of said power-up.
    Again, acquiring goldlike-powers ≠ being a god(ess).



    I asked you yesterday where were those divine powers fuelled by the faith and prayers you are referring to when she was depowered by russian soldiers in Marauders #1? Or when Batroc kicked her around more recently?
    I never saw an answer.
    Truth is, they were nowhere to be seen because Storm isn't an actual goddess, just worshipped as one.
    I suspect that Hadari Yao form to be a faith-based powerboost rather than an actual divine transformation - Storm existence isn't dependant on said prayers and faith, she's still vulnerable to most mortal weaponry on Earth alone, she cannot revive or transcend death, even after being worshipped in Kenya and now Wakanda.
    A power boost she admitted early on to T'challa by the way...
    By the standard you are referring to here, Storm isn't a goddess either.



    Selene never ascended to godhood, she got drunk on the powerboost/godlike power she acquired thanks to her ritual.
    Acquiring godlike powers and being a god are two different things.
    Again, this is all mostly your supposition. Asgardians got killed en-masse by street level villains in Siege, most of them die and stay dead unless outside means are brought into the equation.

    Selene ascended to Godhood, her Ritual consumed the souls of the resurrected mutants and she became a goddess. You don't like it so you say it didn't happen, but it's in the actual comic. She "had risen" and she became The Dark Goddess.

    RCO005.jpg

    A thicc Goddess too.

    Same for Storm. The development is new, we don't know yet the extent of her god powers and her powers are pretty much bound to Wakanda as of now, like for the Orishas. She doesn't have them all the time (of course, they're not going to give the X-Men a God in their team).
    Most Asgardians including Thor can be hurt physically, are they not Gods then? The Shi'ar Gods are physically weaker than Gladiator, one of their worshippers. They're still Gods. Thor got a significant power downgrade when he lost Mjolnir, but he's still a God. Storm still doesn't get her powers when she's out of Wakanda or not powered up by faith. It's actually pretty similar to the Unworthy situation or a Hell Lord, the Great Beasts or the Gibborins being weaker when outside of their dimension, or Snowbird being bound to Canada's borders at first.
    And again, it's a new thing so we don't know how they really work.

    It's been widely stated that ascension is possible: prayers, souls and faith are what fuel Gods and physiology hasn't been ever stated to be a requirement for Godhood, more of a plus that Gods get when they're powered. There's countless Gods in all forms and shapes, I don't see why Storm couldn't be considered one because she's weak to firearms. The Otherworld/Avalon creatures (which includes the Thuata De Dannan) are weak to iron lol. And when she's in God state we don't know how enhanced she is.

  3. #63
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    As to the topic at hand I think to be a God you must be worshiped and have power beyond that of normal mortals. The X-Men fall into this category so those with powers could be considered gods potentially. Any time you are possessed by the Phoenix Force you are definitely a God lol.
    The X-men had power beyond that of normal mortals from the beginning although they weren't considered as gods, at least by the 'insiders', the readers and themselves. On the contrary, the accent has always been put on the fact that, despite their 'marvelous powers', they were still humans, qualities and flaws. Until recently…

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    What is that panel from?
    Ha… I don't know.

    There is a tradition in literature of heroes if not 'killer of gods' at least 'mortals challenging gods'.
    I find funny that some people want their heroes to be gods. I find this idea rather conservative.

  4. #64
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Thanks for posting that Chaos War scan, I remembered there was more talk about prayers there but it's been a long time since I read it hahaha.

    It'd be nice if there was a common energy source for divine beings that you can access once you ascend to Godhood. Like that God-Force thing that is being hinted at in Fantastic Four/X-Men.

    you're very welcome boo!!!

    you know as I was responding to this post I got to thinking about the god force detail. I would think that there is one common divine energy that powers all gods. I agree it would be nice if explored at a later point.

    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    And be able to overcome death, either through resurrection and/or reincarnation and/or transcending death via another form.
    Those are recurring staples we can see in the pantheons depicted in Marvel comics.



    It's interesting how you likened what happened to Storm to what happened with Selene in the other thread, because the latter received a power-up through the ritual she practiced. Same thing happened to Storm, does that makes her a goddess? I Don't think it did for Selene, and I Don't think it did for Storm either.



    The Orishas are beings who transcended their mortal limitations (biological wants and needs, death and the test of time), that's not the case of Storm at all.
    She isn't an Orisha, or another godlike being: eating, breathing, sleeping are still imperative to her, she's still subject to time (aging) and death (vulnerable to man-made weapons and skills, among other things who can kill her).



    As I said in the other thread, Morrigan is a divinity jumping from host to host, more or less with their assent, more or less with Freedom of action attached to it.
    It's a form of possession if we are being honest, not just a title transition, but I digress.
    Bottom line being the essence of the Morrigan is what's being divine, not the host who's harboring it.

    Furthermore, we know this isn't what's occuring with Storm, she's not the conduit for a god(ess) so her case is different than the one of Syrin with Morrigan.



    Selene performed a mystical ritual that gave her godlike-power, she didn't become a god herself, that's just abusing the word.
    Magical beings on Earth were alerted because of the mystical nature of said power-up.
    Again, acquiring goldlike-powers ≠ being a god(ess).



    I asked you yesterday where were those divine powers fuelled by the faith and prayers you are referring to when she was depowered by russian soldiers in Marauders #1? Or when Batroc kicked her around more recently?
    I never saw an answer.
    Truth is, they were nowhere to be seen because Storm isn't an actual goddess, just worshipped as one.
    I suspect that Hadari Yao form to be a faith-based powerboost rather than an actual divine transformation - Storm existence isn't dependant on said prayers and faith, she's still vulnerable to most mortal weaponry on Earth alone, she cannot revive or transcend death, even after being worshipped in Kenya and now Wakanda.
    A power boost she admitted early on to T'challa by the way...
    By the standard you are referring to here, Storm isn't a goddess either.



    Selene never ascended to godhood, she got drunk on the powerboost/godlike power she acquired thanks to her ritual.
    Acquiring godlike powers and being a god are two different things.
    I do not understand your points here made about ororo. canon has established she is a god, so I think the discussion there is closed. I do think the complexities of her godhead are still not understood and most certainly should be explored: when in this mode what kind of enhancements does she obtain for instance, does her ability go beyond weather/energy control. in black panther she was described as a bigger god than adversary and her abilities allowed her to close dimensional portals, manipulate plant life and extend her consciousness across the cosmos.

    moreover, thor can be injuried and can die but he is still a god. his powerset conflicts with your statement on what makes a god.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  5. #65
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    I think that, in divinity, there is a sense of mystery and wonder that inspire believers. It's the modern acception of word 'god', whereas gods in Greek mythology were characters of fairytales.
    I'm not really seeing where you see a distinction
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    But there isn't a lot of mystery about the Resurrection process.
    According to whom? We're you not around when HOX #5 came out? The speculations were flying everywhere. And it's not they've ended. They've just become more focused.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    And frankly I don't know what, spiritually, have the mutants to offer to the world. Crucible? Miraculous drug? Morally, intellectually, they are not better than the humans without a X-gene.
    I don't think you're supposed to be following a religion expecting to get something outta of it. But if you wanna look at it that way. Mutants have only had a chance to breathe and focus their energy on thriving instead of just surviving for like a year.And they've given the world Miraculous drugs and the means to circumvent Death. Preeetty easy to see which ' religion' produces results.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    I have read comics long enough for being not very impressed by the mutants.
    BLASPHEMER!! lol jk
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    I'm just disappointed by their lack of humanity now.
    Humans get the gods they deserve.
    GrindrStone(D)

  6. #66
    Mighty Member norj's Avatar
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    If the gods say you are a god then your are a god, if not then you are just some uppity mortal.
    There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
    There is no fear, there is power.
    I am the heart of the Force.
    I am the revealing fire of light.
    I am the mystery of darkness.
    In balance with chaos and harmony,
    Immortal in the Force.

  7. #67
    Fantastic Member SchismOfMadroces's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    RCO005.jpg

    A thicc Goddess too.
    Goddess Selene has that Incursion-level booty. Two globes clapping together destroying reality in their wake.

  8. #68
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    I'm not really seeing where you see a distinction
    With the monotheisms, you don't have gods with a human face, the believers have a 'special relationship' with their God who wants exclusivity.
    With the Greek mythology, there are a lot of stories. It isn't even proved that the Greeks really believed the stories that were told. Their gods loved, have rather human passions and, mostly, were moderately interested by what the humans were doing. And they weren't exclusive. They lived their immortal life separately from the humans.

    So, yes, if mutants are 'gods', it's more in the sense of antique period.

    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    According to whom? We're you not around when HOX #5 came out? The speculations were flying everywhere. And it's not they've ended. They've just become more focused.
    There are already more explanations than resurrections that appear in religions.

    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    I don't think you're supposed to be following a religion expecting to get something outta of it. But if you wanna look at it that way. Mutants have only had a chance to breathe and focus their energy on thriving instead of just surviving for like a year. And they've given the world Miraculous drugs and the means to circumvent Death. Preeetty easy to see which ' religion' produces results.
    For themselves, yes, it's useful. For their followers, I don't think it elevates them in a spiritual sense.

  9. #69
    ☁ϟ Rosa Snarks's Avatar
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    I'm surprised nobody brought up that weird fungus bringing forth Storm's godhead in Shuri
    Faves: Ororo Munroe♥ Maxima Of Almerac♥ Donna Troy♥ Mari Jiwe McCabe♥ Jean Grey♥ Cyclops♥ Monet♥ Wanda Maximoff♥ Jubilee♥
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  10. #70
    Libre. People Of The Earth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Again, this is all mostly your supposition. Asgardians got killed en-masse by street level villains in Siege, most of them die and stay dead unless outside means are brought into the equation.
    What you are referring to in bold is a case of rule of cool being preferred by the writer over the internal rules of the universe.
    It's no different than anytime a character punch above his/her weight-class thanks to the writer-of-the-day or when another character is jobbing against a character much weaker than him/her.
    No different than when writers refer to mutants as non-humans when they factually are.

    I stand by what I said regarding the Asgardians, sorry.

    Furthermore, said Asgardians went through resurrection afterward: they Don't stay "dead", it's false.
    They go to extra-dimensions, whether Valhalla or Hel, realms that can be travelled to and back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Selene ascended to Godhood, her Ritual consumed the souls of the resurrected mutants and she became a goddess.
    No, she acquired godlike powers as a result of her ritual. Not the same thing.
    That people would mix one for the other show how incredibly loose the use of the term has become in the comics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    You don't like it so you say it didn't happen, but it's in the actual comic. She "had risen" and she became The Dark Goddess.
    The bold? That's you rationalizing what I said to fit your perspective on this subject.
    You are entitled to do so, but I'm telling you, that's not the case at all.
    I'm just Calling an apple "apple" when you and others want to call said apple "orange" and convince others it is one…
    I'm not buying that, hence why I refer to Storm as a goddess in name only.

    As for the rest, as I said yesterday, pompous words Don't change what actually occured with Selene: she performed a ritual that gave her monstrous powers, that's all.
    That she referred herself as a goddess or that her enemies did as a result doesn't change any of that.
    An apple is an apple, no matter how you want to call it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Same for Storm. The development is new, we don't know yet the extent of her god powers and her powers are pretty much bound to Wakanda as of now, like for the Orishas.
    Being a god and having godlike-powers are two different things. We are discussing the former, not the latter.
    I'll say it again: Storm still has needs and wants and vulnerabilities, as any other human on Earth do.
    She still needs to breath, to eat, to drink water, to sleep, she still ages, she can still die from most common human injuries, still is a mortal in every sense of the word.
    Even when she's in Wakanda, prayed to by her worshippers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    She doesn't have them all the time (of course, they're not going to give the X-Men a God in their team).
    I've yet to see her needs and wants vanish thanks to the prayers and faith of her worshippers, or her becoming immortal/ be resurrected as a result of said worshipping.
    I meant it when I said being a god(ess) isn't a part-time situation, it's not a matter of being one for the two hours of praying on Sunday Morning and being a mortal on the rest of the Week.
    Either she's one, or she's not, there's no middle ground.
    You say her godlike powers only manifest when in Wakanda, I say great, that still doesn't make her a godess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Most Asgardians including Thor can be hurt physically, are they not Gods then?
    Asgardians are beyond human physiology, they can be hurt by beings of their weight-class, not by simple humans the same way Storm is.
    Unless there's some sort of macguffin/deus ex machina involved in the story of course.
    But generally speaking, them having Superior durability than humans for example is Simply a common attribute found with gods, there's more to their status than just that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    The Shi'ar Gods are physically weaker than Gladiator, one of their worshippers. They're still Gods.
    They can transcend death. Storm cannot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Thor got a significant power downgrade when he lost Mjolnir, but he's still a God.
    I'll repeat: being a god and having godlike powers isn't the same thing.
    Power is not what defines Thor as a god. The fact he's virtually immortal and able to transcend death itself is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Storm still doesn't get her powers when she's out of Wakanda or not powered up by faith.
    Same: godlike powers ≠ being a god.
    Storm's existence is bound to her taking care of her basic human needs and wants, not to worshippers deciding whether or not they'll pray to her on the next Morning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    It's actually pretty similar to the Unworthy situation or a Hell Lord, the Great Beasts or the Gibborins being weaker when outside of their dimension, or Snowbird being bound to Canada's borders at first. And again, it's a new thing so we don't know how they really work.
    It's not pretty similar.
    All of those you cited are beings hundreds of years if not millenia old, and they all can overcome death in one way or another.
    That's not the case of Storm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    It's been widely stated that ascension is possible: prayers, souls and faith are what fuel Gods and physiology hasn't been ever stated to be a requirement for Godhood, more of a plus that Gods get when they're powered.
    You are acting like I said physiology was THE requirement to godhood, when I actually said extraordinary physiology was an attribute commonly found throughout the gods and goddesses of Marvel, the same way them being immortals and/or able to transcend death in some way is too.
    You are dismissing Storm's mortal limitations as irrelevant to her being a god when it's a mark of her actually be a mortal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    There's countless Gods in all forms and shapes, I don't see why Storm couldn't be considered one because she's weak to firearms.
    Because gods and goddess who have weak physiologies are still extremely long-liv e d and/or able to overcome death.
    That's not the case of Storm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    The Otherworld/Avalon creatures (which includes the Thuata De Dannan) are weak to iron lol.
    They are still virtually immortal despite that weakness. That's not the case of Storm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    And when she's in God state we don't know how enhanced she is.
    We do know she still needs to breath air and eat food and sleep if she doesn't want to eventually die, even when in Wakanda - despite it being the only place where her godlike power can manifest, according to you.
    She's human, and that's perfectly fine too.
    Last edited by People Of The Earth; 04-03-2020 at 06:58 AM.
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  11. #71
    Libre. People Of The Earth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post

    I do not understand your points here made about ororo. canon has established she is a god, so I think the discussion there is closed.
    She's one in name only, for the reasons I cited earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    I do think the complexities of her godhead are still not understood and most certainly should be explored: when in this mode what kind of enhancements does she obtain for instance, does her ability go beyond weather/energy control.
    Her power level doesn't come into play regarding whether or not she's a goddess, it's not relevant.
    Furthermore, being a god(ess) is not "a mode", the same way being a mutant is not "a mode" either, or being a female "is not a mode" too.
    Either she is a god(ess) or she's not. Some things are that simple, and it is one of them.
    I'm saying she's not for the Reason I cited earlier, hence why I refer to her as a goddess in name only.

    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    in black panther she was described as a bigger god than adversary and her abilities allowed her to close dimensional portals, manipulate plant life and extend her consciousness across the cosmos.
    You are referring to her abilities, I'm saying abilities is not what makes one a god or goddess. Those are two different things.

    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    moreover, thor can be injuried and can die but he is still a god. his powerset conflicts with your statement on what makes a god.
    No. What I said is that exceptional physiology is a common trait among gods. Longevity, durability, strength. The same way overcoming death is one, whether through resurrection, reincarnation, or Simply be immune to it and/or immortal.
    Thor isn't defined as a god by his powers, those are secondary.
    Last edited by People Of The Earth; 04-03-2020 at 07:00 AM.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


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  12. #72
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    I'm not going to argue with you anymore if your argument is: no what has happened in the comics or what has been established is not true because my view is true. You have an idea of Gods that you want to stick to, but that is not what a Marvel Universe God is. It's been established that what they share is being empowered by faith and prayers, exactly like Storm has shown.

    You're not showing any evidence if not pointing out common denominators. Storm has ascended and became a goddess in a comicbook. It happened.

    She's not millenials old like the first Orishas weren't when they started to ascend, since they were humans like her. That is not a valid point. We actually do not know if Storm has human limitations when she's in God mode and the limitations she has (being tied to Wakanda and prayers) are common limitations that the other Gods I listed have, which you're dismissing with the weak excuse of being millenials old (they weren't at some point lol).

    Also, human Hell(s) has been pretty much depicted like Asgardians Hel as in you can escape from it. But that doesn't mean they can Resurrect by themselves or they're completely unbothered by Death. Their God of War has been stuck in Hel since Siege when he was killed. Common Asgardians require outside forces to Resurrect. And btw Storm is currently immortal and her Resurrection method bothered Death itself as it wasn't just simple cloning, so there's also that.

    But again, let's leave it at that since you're dismissing any evidence I post because you want to interpret the comics in a certain way.

  13. #73
    Judgement Awaits LordAllMIghty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stormphoenix View Post
    Yeah, that's pretty much it.



    I would agree with you LAM. But if that's the case i'm curious how come Magneto isn't a God??
    I think he doesn't have the ability to tap into it because he is not a spiritual person. You gotta have faith to tap into faith.

    Now with that being said. Black Panther should be powerful as hell...so I guess you need the God gene to use the power too.
    Last edited by LordAllMIghty; 04-03-2020 at 09:57 AM.
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  14. #74
    Incredible Member Ororo101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    Thank you for carrying that conversation over this thread.



    She is not an actual goddess, just one in name only.



    Interestingly, it's a question I've been asking, how is it she's vulnerable to man weaponry and skills so much if she's a goddess? why doesn't she manifests her divine powers the one time her mutant gifts are muffled by power dampeners over in Marauder #1?



    It doesn't, as long as said individual transcends the limitations of his/her humanity to reach said divinity.
    Typically human needs and wants, physiology and life-span, the likes.



    Unless being born out of the divine themselves, people Don't become gods.
    Acquiring godlike powers and becoming a god are not the same thing.



    No.
    Not in general.
    The average mutant is susceptible and submitted to the same limitations than the rest of humanity.
    They have the same basic needs, they can be killed as well.
    Living in better conditions, having access to better technologies and healthcare doesn't make them gods.



    First off, the Resurrection Protocols are still being debated even in-universe, as to whether they are the real deal or a fancy way of cloning people.
    And Don't forget that the Five are entirely relying on the science of Mr Sinister and Forge to have bodies to create, and minds to transfer into them.
    The assertion mutants have conquered death is both too strong and inaccurate, Science has conquered death in the case of the RPs.

    Secondly, even if we go from the postulate that the RPs are genuine resurrection, it remains a mechanism that is external to all mutants, one that is manufactured the same way technology in 616 allow people to upload their consciousness to another body in order to cheat death like Tony Stark do.
    It's not mystical or divine in nature, like the means used by the asgardians and the olympians you cited.

    Now, can divinity be born out of Science and technology? It's Something I Don't adhere to personnally, but it's up for debate, sure.



    That's not proof of godhood either, individuals have been worshipped by the masses since times immemorial, like the Pharaohs of Egypt for example.



    Beyond the Phoenix, I Don't see what entity could be worshipped as a god by the mutants on Krakoa.
    I suppose the Five could eventually end-up worshipped too as gods, but that would be as misguided as sapiens worshipping mutants as gods.
    It is more likely that respective traditional faiths on the island will be adapted, reshaped, to be compatible with what the Kraked are doing on their island.



    Possible outcomes yes, as I mentionned above.



    As I said, maybe the Five could end-up in that position, but that would be misguided and they still wouldn't be gods.
    Being worshipped by the masses isn't proof of godhood in itself.
    Very interesting head-canon you have here. You should write fan fiction as it seems you have a flare for imagination.

  15. #75
    Incredible Member Ororo101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    I'm not saying she can't do It I'm just saying I've never seen her as a goddess, again more high priestess weather witch than anything. Her ascending is possible though I'm not knocking that. *shrugs* I've never read to many Storm centered comics I just started Black Panther from last year trying to see how her and T'Challa got back together I heard from a friend some of the goddess stuff is expanded upon throughout the run.
    It is and I recommend you should keep reading since those issues read far better as a whole than by waiting issue for issue. I appreciate you wanting to educate yourself before speaking on matters you haven’t read about yet, unlike some. Hope you enjoy.

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