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  1. #31
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    Abby and her people at least only killed Joel. They didn't firebomb Jackson or kill a percentage of it's population to get to Joel. Tommy and Ellie killed a whole mess of people that had nothing to do with Abby or what happened to Joel.
    I found Abby completely unlikable. She's an unredeemable sociopath and no amount of flashbacks with her dad, and love of dogs will change that.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    I found Abby completely unlikable. She's an unredeemable sociopath and no amount of flashbacks with her dad, and love of dogs will change that.
    A sociopath would of killed Ellie and Tommy either time they had them at their mercy. We've seen sociopaths in TLoU, Abby isn't anything like them. You can be mad that she killed Joel all you want. But when it was all said and done it was Ellie that threatened to kill a half starved child to get a death match from a half starved woman, not Abby.

  3. #33
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    A sociopath would of killed Ellie and Tommy either time they had them at their mercy. We've seen sociopaths in TLoU, Abby isn't anything like them. You can be mad that she killed Joel all you want. But when it was all said and done it was Ellie that threatened to kill a half starved child to get a death match from a half starved woman, not Abby.
    Abby and her crew are dumbasses. Keeping people alive who want you dead is highly idiotic in that setting. Joel killed all the fireflies in the first game to make sure there's nobody to come after them. They should have known better. If it wasn't for dumb luck her plan to get to Joel was to storm into a heavily fortified town head on. Her father smart's obviously did not get passed down.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    Abby and her crew are dumbasses. Keeping people alive who want you dead is highly idiotic in that setting. Joel killed all the fireflies in the first game to make sure there's nobody to come after them. They should have known better. If it wasn't for dumb luck her plan to get to Joel was to storm into a heavily fortified town head on. Her father smart's obviously did not get passed down.
    So which is it? First you say she's an irredeemable sociopath and then when i show you she factually isn't you say she's stupid for not being a ruthless sociopath. If being an irredeemable sociopath is a good thing for that setting why were you holding it against Abby for supposedly being one? I get you don't like a new character killed a old beloved one. But at the end of the day she didn't kill a pregnant woman and threaten to kill a child, Ellie did. Her being the beloved character from the first game doesn't give her a pass for being a psycho who ruined the life Joel killed so many to give her.

  5. #35
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    I haven't got that far but I am presuming Lev is what gets her to turn against them. The whole "it's a grey world" thing would have more weight if people weren't treating Abby as Satan's incarnation on Earth for doing things that when Joel or Ellie do they cheer.

    EDIT: Got to that part yeah that was what i expected. That situation is very different from Ellie's. Abby fought to save Lev and herself and get out of there. Ellie and Tommy deliberately went into another groups area to kill members of that group and anyone else unfortunate enough to come across them.
    Ellie, Tommy, even Jesse as soon as they walk into the area they were shot at on sight. They made this point multiple times that they were immediately attacked by these factions on sight. Where Abby started killing her friends as soon as they opposed her. Lev is someone who blatantly ignores them to go off and ends up killing his mom. Which in turn gets his sister killed, even though he already admits how he should have ran away because of what already happen to Yara. Yet he goes to that island anyway, despite being told what would happen. He should not have been there. So the idea that Abby's body count is somehow more righteous is silly. She put down bodies in her way same as Ellie did.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 06-22-2020 at 10:19 PM.

  6. #36
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    So which is it? First you say she's an irredeemable sociopath and then when i show you she factually isn't you say she's stupid for not being a ruthless sociopath. If being an irredeemable sociopath is a good thing for that setting why were you holding it against Abby for supposedly being one? I get you don't like a new character killed a old beloved one. But at the end of the day she didn't kill a pregnant woman and threaten to kill a child, Ellie did. Her being the beloved character from the first game doesn't give her a pass for being a psycho who ruined the life Joel killed so many to give her.
    That's the writing dropping the ball. Abby and her crew should have killed Ellie and Tommy when they kill Joel. It made no sense for them to keep them alive. She a irredeemable sociopath who happens to be a colossal moron. Killing Joel isn't the only reason I dislike Abby but it is up there. I find the moments that meant to make her sympathetic feel incredibly forced and did very little to actually make her likable. At best she is wasted potential.

    Ellie didn't know she was pregnant. She was mortified to learn that she was after she killed her.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Ellie, Tommy, even Jesse as soon as they walk into the area they were shot at on sight. They made this point multiple times that they were immediately attacked by these factions on sight. Where Abby started killing her friends as soon as they opposed her. Lev is someone who blatantly ignores them to go off and ends up killing his mom. Which in turn gets his sister killed, even though he already admits how he should have ran away because of what already happen to Yara. Yet he goes to that island anyway, despite being told what would happen. He should not have been there. So the idea that Abby's body count is somehow more righteous is silly. She put down bodies in her way same as Ellie did.
    That's not fair to Lev. Lev was a child that still had hope he could reconcil with his mom and killed his mom in accident in self defense. I feel you are being mad hard on Lev on this. Were you as hard on Ellie in the first game for her mistakes? Abby only starting killing the wolves when she tried to give herself up to her leader and the leader threatened to kill her for standing in front of Lev and the others shot to kill when Yara shot her leader. I know she messed up the one that shot Yara but I don't think she killed him. After that point surrender would of been a death sentence for her and Lev. I don't blame her for doing whatever she had to to get her and Lev out of there. It's no different than all the stuff Joel did in 1 to get him and Ellie out of bad situations. The difference is Abby was put in that situation for trying to help people she cared for. Ellie and her friends were there only to kill people.

    Yes Ellie and Jessie were attacked on sight, they stepped into the middle of a war. But are you going to pretend if that wasn't the case they still wouldn't of ended up killing a bunch of wolves to get to Abby and her crew?

    She a irredeemable sociopath who happens to be a colossal moron.
    Sociopaths don't hold themselves back like Abby did. It makes no sense to blame her morals on stupidity in order to say she has no morals. By that logic morality doesn't exist, only stupidity.

    Ellie didn't know she was pregnant. She was mortified to learn that she was after she killed her.
    It didn't stop her from leaving everything she had, that Joel killed the fireflies for, to try again. Ultimately right up until the end Ellie didn't care about collateral damage as long as she evened the score. Being temporarily mortified didn't change a thing for her actions. It didn't provide her with any wake up call that she had gone too far or that she needed to ask herself if this quest was worth her humanity. She only stopped the first time because she didn't want to lose Dina. But the second time even that wasn't enough to keep her from a go at Abby.

  8. #38
    Astonishing Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    One of my buddy bought it and cause i'm a cheap rat i took my sweet ass time trying the game in his couch lol. (that's friendship for you)

    To be honest i found pretty much nothing likable about it, may that be the story, the gameplay or the characters.

    But well, i can't say that it's really a disappointment for me cause i never was a big fan of the first game to begin with so it's cool.

    And the online shitstorm is fun to follow.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    That's not fair to Lev. Lev was a child that still had hope he could reconcil with his mom and killed his mom in accident in self defense. I feel you are being mad hard on Lev on this. Were you as hard on Ellie in the first game for her mistakes? Abby only starting killing the wolves when she tried to give herself up to her leader and the leader threatened to kill her for standing in front of Lev and the others shot to kill when Yara shot her leader. I know she messed up the one that shot Yara but I don't think she killed him. After that point surrender would of been a death sentence for her and Lev. I don't blame her for doing whatever she had to to get her and Lev out of there. It's no different than all the stuff Joel did in 1 to get him and Ellie out of bad situations. The difference is Abby was put in that situation for trying to help people she cared for. Ellie and her friends were there only to kill people.

    Yes Ellie and Jessie were attacked on sight, they stepped into the middle of a war. But are you going to pretend if that wasn't the case they still wouldn't of ended up killing a bunch of wolves to get to Abby and her crew?
    How is it not fair to Lev. Lev was not such a child that he didn’t know better. He made it clear that he did when Yara was dying, on top of that he was flat out told what would happen, and yet he still did it any way. Leaving his mother and his sister dead because he decided to repeat his same mistake and ignore those around him. The game lets Lev off the hook for his continued selfish and bad decisions by making those around him suffer and having Abby bury bodies for him. The people Abby had to go through for him had families too. She probably even knew their families. Her deeming Lev’s survival over theirs, and doing whatever she had to to get what she wanted, doesn’t make her anymore righteous. As soon as they were in her way she put them down too. And if Joel died like Yara did because of something Ellie did, people for sure would have been hard on her for it.

    Ellie and her people stepped into the middle of a war just like Abby, Lev, and Yara did on the island. Ellie didn’t go there to wipe out a faction any more the Abby went to the island to go through as many Scars and Wolfs that she did.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 06-23-2020 at 03:13 AM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    How is it not fair to Lev. Lev was not such a child that he didn’t know better. He made it clear that he did when Yara was dying, on top of that he was flat out told what would happen, and yet he still did it any way. Leaving his mother and his sister dead because he decided to repeat his same mistake and ignore those around him. The game lets Lev off the hook for his continued selfish and bad decisions by making those around him suffer and having Abby bury bodies for him. The people Abby had to go through for him had families too. She probably even knew their families. Her deeming Lev’s survival over theirs, and doing whatever she had to to get what she wanted, doesn’t make her anymore righteous. As soon as they were in her way she put them down too. And if Joel died like Yara did because of something Ellie did, people for sure would have been hard on her for it.

    Ellie and her people stepped into the middle of a war just like Abby, Lev, and Yara did on the island. Ellie didn’t go there to wipe out a faction any more the Abby went to the island to go through as many Scars and Wolfs that she did.
    She was planning on killing multiple people in that faction and by the time she got there Tommy had killed god knows how many. Of which she had no issue with even defending his tactics to Dina. Who simply said if it was my sisters killer i'd do worse. Despite the guys he tortured not being who killed Joel. Everyone who went there did so with the intention of becoming a hurricane either on the way in or on the way out. Vs Abby's group who literally didn't even kill Tommy and Ellie even though they had them at their mercy. That sets Abby in a better place outright. That they both ended up killing wolves is ignoring the context of what led to that situation. Abby did everything she could to diffuse until it was clear only her and Lev's deaths would be enough. They also tried taking the paths of least resistance it's just that the fighting was too wide spread because it was a literal warzone. Not a no mans land like with Ellie a literal everyone killing everyone free for all war zone.

    And yeah it's too hard on Lev. You see plenty of showings how naive both of them are about the world because of how they were raised. The difference is that Yara was old enough to know after a certain point even loved ones can't be reached, Lev wasn't. That's something even modern adults with experience don't always get.

  11. #41
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    I have mixed views about TLoU-2. I like what it's trying to do, and I appreciate the attempt, but they didn't execute it well, and my hope is that this game inspires other developers to take their ideas and do it one better.

    The central thing that upsets so many people isn't unprecedented in games i.e. creating sympathy for a character introduced to you as a villain and then later making the character playable while also potentially having the aggrieved party forgive him. This happened in DISHONORED where Corvo Attano the player protagonist sees Daud the Assassin assassinate his lover Jessamine and kidnap their daughter in the opening, right in front of his eyes and as per canon, spared Daud's life when he supplicates to him, despite having every reason and chance to kill him. You later play as Daud from his point of view. Now Dishonored is an immersive sim and not a linear action game, and obviously presentation and context is different but in theory the concept could have been done and could have won people over.

    The Last of Us Part II is a mess because it made choices that countered that. Here are some fixes...
    -- The big mistake for me is that Ellie in the flashbacks found out about what Joel did at the end of TLoU-1. To me it would have made more sense if we learned that during Ellie's quest for revenge and not in this drip-fed flashbacks after Joel died. Like for instance, Ellie potentially pardoning/sparing Abby would have made more sense if she did it out of guilt/angst/remorse about Joel choosing her over developing a cure for the outbreak. This is why dramatic consistency depends so much on timing.

    -- Abby's Dad is a total jerk. He openly admits he wouldn't have done the operation if it was Abby instead of Ellie. Abby then hears this, commisserates with Dad and therefore becomes complicit in the Fireflies' "cut open a 14 year old for a distant chance at a vaccine" stunt. So to me these two characters are total hypocrites. They understood why Joel did what he did. So to me their entire revenge was unjustified and without any moral righteousness. They understood and knew they were doing something morally wrong and when they suffered consequences they never reflected once on what they did, or take responsibility. I mean at the end of TLOU-1, Joel saving Ellie and then lying to her was definitely supposed to be ambiguous and dark, and murky in a human way. This game seems to out-and-out say that "Joel should have let Ellie die". That's going way too far in the other direction. Especially if you are going to take the perspective of the people who wanted to kill her without telling her.
    -- It would have worked in my view if Abby's Dad insisted that they conduct more tests and take the slow road while Marlene prioritizes getting the vaccine out quickly for the sake of the Firefly cause which is losing and about to be crushed (and for whom the vaccine means total victory). Abby's Dad had to be the one to say, "We don't need to kill her. We can wait. We can take this slowly" but then Marlene puts a gun on Abby's head and says "Your daughter or Ellie, make your choice". IF they had done that, or if the doctor says he will do his best to save both Ellie and Abby, then Joel killing the doctor would have that sense of miscommunication and tragic futility that the story wants to convey, where in a sense both Joel and Abby's Dad are right and Ellie and Abby are right. Instead the game humanizes Marlene and makes the doctor into a jerk. Abby's motivation to killing Joel would make sense if her father was the moderate voice of reason in an impossible situation and that he and the Fireflies died anyway. The choice they made was an inexplicable story choice. It nullifies the entire revenge theme.

    I think if they found ways to address these issues then maybe the story they were trying to tell would have made sense. Abby and her Dad absolutely had to be innocent in some sense for their actions to even be concievably forgivable. If they are complicit child murderers without any remorse or second doubts then the story falls apart. Likewise, Ellie forgiving Abby needs the heaviness and guilt of her knowing and experiencing Joel's actions and confronting it, not a revenge story which happens a year after she lived through it.

  12. #42
    Mighty Member Ying Ko's Avatar
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    Oh man, I'm looking forward getting to play soon. I have the game already but haven't had enough time to play because work

  13. #43
    Incredible Member Drako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    So which is it? First you say she's an irredeemable sociopath and then when i show you she factually isn't you say she's stupid for not being a ruthless sociopath. If being an irredeemable sociopath is a good thing for that setting why were you holding it against Abby for supposedly being one? I get you don't like a new character killed a old beloved one. But at the end of the day she didn't kill a pregnant woman and threaten to kill a child, Ellie did. Her being the beloved character from the first game doesn't give her a pass for being a psycho who ruined the life Joel killed so many to give her.
    Ellie: She's pregnant.
    Abby: Good
    Those are the words before Lev stopped her from killing Dina.

    Ellie kills Mel, who was trying to stab her, without knowing she was pregnant. Also, Ellie specifically said to Owen and Mel "You guys can survive this, i just want her." but Owen had to react and got shot, which triggerd Mel to attack Ellie.

    You said before that Abby and her group didn't go into another groups area to kill Joel and that's wrong. They found Jackson and as soon as Owen showed the place to her she sprinted to the city. To do what? Surrender herself? The only reason she didn't wreck havoc is because she got lost and found Joel and Tommy by chance. And they save her, by the way.

    Also, Ellie pretty much save her life too by freeing her from the cross and not drowing her when she had the chance.
    Abby had her revenge, torturing and killing Joel. Something that was in her mind for four years and cost her relationship with Owen.

    So for her to move on was easier than Ellie. We play most of the game with the "I had my revenge" version of Abby, not the one in the beginning.



    Just a quick note, the OP or the mods should put Spoilers in the title of this thread to warn people who haven't played yet.
    Last edited by Drako; 06-23-2020 at 12:59 PM.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    Ellie: She's pregnant.
    Abby: Good
    Those are the words before Lev stopped her from killing Dina.

    Ellie kills Mel, who was trying to stab her, without knowing she was pregnant. Also, Ellie specifically said to Owen and Mel "You guys can survive this, i just want her." but Owen had to react and got shot, which triggerd Mel to attack Ellie.
    You speak from the viewers all knowing view. All Abby saw was her two dead friends and Mel's shirt open clearly showing she was pregnant. Also saying that Ellie would have let them go as if they had any reason at all to know that. I am not even sure of it, seeing as how the trick she used against them was Tommy's and we saw the aftermath of that was no survivors. What would she had done if the info had not lined up?

    You said before that Abby and her group didn't go into another groups area to kill Joel and that's wrong. They found Jackson and as soon as Owen showed the place to her she sprinted to the city. To do what? Surrender herself? The only reason she didn't wreck havoc is because she got lost and found Joel and Tommy by chance. And they save her, by the way.
    We don't know what Abby would have done seeing as she didn't even have proof he was there yet. But we saw what Ellie did.

    Also, Ellie pretty much save her life too by freeing her from the cross and not drowing her when she had the chance.
    Abby had her revenge, torturing and killing Joel. Something that was in her mind for four years and cost her relationship with Owen.
    So for her to move on was easier than Ellie. We play most of the game with the "I had my revenge" version of Abby, not the one in the beginning.
    And when she had Owen's murderer at her mercy she showed mercy again. Yes, it was because of Lev but that she did it at all was a massive showing that she just wanted the BS over with. Especially when Owen was someone she loved, if not as much then, almost as much as her father. She was so effected by his death she vomited. Yet she let Ellie live again. Ellie OTOH gave up her life with Dina for another go, even after being spared twice. And it wasn't easier to move on that second time because then it was Ellie that was the target of Abby's revenge, not Joel. At that point Ellie had hurt Abby as much as Abby had hurt her. Yet Abby valued her relationship with Lev over her hatred of Ellie. Ellie was prepared to die in that conflict to save Tommy and Tommy lived and still sent Ellie out to kill Abby again. Ellie came away from that encounter with everything she gave herself up for to Abby at the start of it to protect and yet still went back for another round. Even when it cost her the one good thing she had left. I really don't see how people can think Ellie's in the right on that. Joel destroyed the fireflies and the possibility of a cure for her to have the life he couldn't give Sarah and she pissed it away for nothing. I honestly don't think Joel would of wanted her to end up like he was at the start of the first game over his death. Which in a way was very interesting since the first game ended with Joel having done something Ellie wouldn't of wanted for her sake. And now Ellie did something Joel likely wouldn't of wanted for his.

  15. #45
    Incredible Member Drako's Avatar
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    It's wierd to me that you don't hold Abby accountable for her actions, but expect Ellie to act like a saint and not seek revenge like Abby did.

    Abby starts this game just like Ellie, but she got what she wanted and bounced.

    Then, when the consequences of her actions came to her, just like it happened to Joel, she goes after them and kills Jessie, beat the s** out of Ellie and almost kill Dina.

    And of course the Scars and the WLFs, but that i don't care much cause is more part of the gameplay then anything.

    Also the game ends with Ellie, who lost everything, showing Mercy to Abby, so it's not like Abby was the only person showing the hability to "forgive".

    Look, i'm not trying to justify Ellie's actions or saying that she was right to do what she did. I just don't think Abby was just that great either. She is a flawed miserable human being just like Ellie is and Joel was in the first one.

    As a matter of fact, if the game gave me a choice i would drowned her.

    I don't like this game like the first one, to me this is a 7\10, 8 max. It drags a lot, it's too long, and the story is not that special. But i have to give credit to one thing.

    I never, ever, felt playing a game something close to what i felt when we take control of Abby for the second time. I don't even know how to describe my feelings (especially in english). I played the flashback, thinking it was only that part. When they show "Seattle, Day 1" i had to turn off my ps4. It was pretty ballsy of a move to give the player the control of a character they hate and try to make them sympathetic to him, but it didn't work for me because Abby is not carismatic and i was conviced that if they gave me a choice, i would kill her, doesn't matter how many hours i played with her.

    I also was very pissed that i had to fight Ellie, so much so the first try I let her kill me.
    Last edited by Drako; 06-23-2020 at 03:53 PM.

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