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  1. #46
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    You speak from the viewers all knowing view.
    Yes, why would I argue any other way? This character is far from the saint you want to paint her as.

  2. #47
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    It's wierd to me that you don't hold Abby accountable for her actions, but expect Ellie to act like a saint and not seek revenge like Abby did.
    Bear in mind that Abby is a war criminal. Her faction, the WLF, is essentially conducting an ethnic cleansing operation against the Seraphites (and we actually see Isaac lead that). Abby is a "top Scar killer" and she openly gloats about torturing many of these people. These aren't actions driven by survival, defense of community (since Seattle has no communities other than WLF), or any real ideal. It's basically a glorified gang war. She and the ex-Fireflies joined the WLF because after doing war crimes with the Fireflies (which that defector in the Ellie-Joel dino flashback revealed they did) she needed to find other uses for her war crime skills.

    And again she and the Fireflies were complicit in a plan to murder Ellie sight-unseen for a vague desperate gambit to create a vaccine for which we have her quack father's assurance was a sure thing. No medical doctor in real life would advocate a measure like that to create a vaccine. That's now how medical science works.

    The way to do it, and make her sympathetic was to make her father dissent and be killed by Joel anyway because Abby would be killed if he backed away. That would have given some foundation but what we have isn't sufficient to empathize with her hatred of Joel. She was in the room when her Dad admitted to Marlene more or less that he would not have done it had it been Abby not Ellie. So she knew why Joel did what he did. That makes her a person lacking all self-awareness and self-reflection. Again Daud from Dishonored had self-awareness and self-reflection, so that made the game's attempt to generate sympathy and forgivenes for him work in the end. It's not impossible to redeem a character who falls so deep so fast but it's impossible to do so with the qualities Abby has.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 06-23-2020 at 04:05 PM.

  3. #48
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    https://www.indiewire.com/2020/06/th...rs-1234568597/

    There's an interview with the game's project leads. Interesting part is near the end where Druckmann says that for the longest time Ellie would have killed Abby near the end but they changed it later on.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    It's wierd to me that you don't hold Abby accountable for her actions, but expect Ellie to act like a saint and not seek revenge like Abby did.

    As a matter of fact, if the game gave me a choice i would drowned her.

    I never, ever, felt playing a game something close to what i felt when we take control of Abby for the second time. I don't even know how to describe my feelings (especially in english). I played the flashback, thinking it was only that part. When they show "Seattle, Day 1" i had to turn off my ps4. It was pretty ballsy of a move to give the player the control of a character they hate and try to make them sympathetic to him, but it didn't work for me because Abby is not carismatic and i was conviced that if they gave me a choice, i would kill her, doesn't matter how many hours i played with her.

    I also was very pissed that i had to fight Ellie, so much so the first try I let her kill me.
    That's why. People feel drowning a half starved woman is a moral action because "it's Ellie and Joel". I do not feel Abby was perfectly in the right and in fact Mel and Owen both let her outright know how they feel she was in the wrong about quite a bit of the Joel incident. The difference is both the fans and her friends are on Ellie's side regardless of what she does and to whom. Only in the very end when Dina had a child to care for did she stand up to Ellie's crusade. Up until then everyone was justifying Ellie's choices. They never gave her shit for Mel's death or beating Nora to death. "Ellie felt sad" who cares? She never once faces any call out from anyone but Abby for any of that. Until she has Abby's head underwater she never stops to think that she's become exactly like the person Joel would of never wanted her to be. And that continuing would make her as bad as any of the crazies she's faced in her travels. If this thread is any indication neither do the people playing the damn game. So it's less about giving Abby a pass and more that I am sick of everyone giving Ellie one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    Yes, why would I argue any other way? This character is far from the saint you want to paint her as.
    Because the characters don't know the info we do. So they can't act on that info. I am not saying Abby is a saint. But at least the characters in the story actually call her out from time to time. Ellie didn't get so much as a hold up until she left Dina. And that was less about what Ellie did or was going to do and more about Dina not wanting to wonder if Ellie was ever going to come back at all.
    Last edited by Farealmer; 06-23-2020 at 05:12 PM.

  5. #50
    Incredible Member Drako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    That's why. People feel drowning a half starved woman is a moral action because "it's Ellie and Joel". I do not feel Abby was perfectly in the right and in fact Mel and Owen both let her outright know how they feel she was in the wrong about quite a bit of the Joel incident. The difference is both the fans and her friends are on Ellie's side regardless of what she does and to whom. Only in the very end when Dina had a child to care for did she stand up to Ellie's crusade. Up until then everyone was justifying Ellie's choices. They never gave her shit for Mel's death or beating Nora to death. "Ellie felt sad" who cares? She never once faces any call out from anyone but Abby for any of that. Until she has Abby's head underwater she never stops to think that she's become exactly like the person Joel would of never wanted her to be. And that continuing would make her as bad as any of the crazies she's faced in her travels. If this thread is any indication neither do the people playing the damn game. So it's less about giving Abby a pass and more that I am sick of everyone giving Ellie one.
    Oh, please! Abby torture Joel, beating him in the head for who knows how many hours with a golf club and then kills him. I guess that's okay, then. Do you think her father would want that for her too? She never stop to think that.

    I never said Ellie drowning Abby was a moral action. You're putting words in my mouth, i especifically said that Ellie was a flawed character.

    The last act of the first game it's the main character killing "inocent" people. If you are looking for characters that have moral actions, you are playing the wrong game, dude.

  6. #51
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    That's why. People feel drowning a half starved woman is a moral action because "it's Ellie and Joel".
    A half-starved woman who in the peak of her health brutally tortured and murdered a man in cold blood after said man saved her from being shredded by zombies.

    I do not feel Abby was perfectly in the right and in fact Mel and Owen both let her outright know how they feel she was in the wrong about quite a bit of the Joel incident. The difference is both the fans and her friends are on Ellie's side regardless of what she does and to whom. Only in the very end when Dina had a child to care for did she stand up to Ellie's crusade.
    When a man who is a respected and beloved pillar of a community as Joel was (see all the cards and flowers left at his house when Ellie visits) gets killed in the most random and degrading manner possible, and the community is both hampered and threatened by his loss (since losing Joel makes patrol work harder making it harder to bring killers to justice), it's not hard to see the girl who Joel saw as his daughter and automatically wish to support her you know.

    Because the characters don't know the info we do. So they can't act on that info.
    Here's the info Abby had:
    -- She knew her father was fine with murdering a child for the outside chance of a vaccine.
    -- She knew that Marlene, leader of the Fireflies had moral objections that her father had to talk her out of.
    -- She knew that her father, in Joel's position, would do no different.

    Anyone who knows these things and then does the things that Abby does, is an appalling hypocrite unworthy of revenge or redemption.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    Oh, please! Abby torture Joel, beating him in the head for who knows how many hours with a golf club and then kills him. I guess that's okay, then. Do you think her father would want that for her too? She never stop to think that.
    At least two of the people that were there hold her to blame for that. No one in the story ever told Ellie she was wrong for any of the things she did.

    I never said Ellie drowning Abby was a moral action. You're putting words in my mouth, i especifically said that Ellie was a flawed character.
    I said people not you. You aren't the only one I am debating with or the only one taking Ellie's side in this. Ellie who was prepared to kill a child(a child who pleaded for mercy on her and Dina to Abby) to get a death match out of a half dead woman. You have nightwing as an avatar and are saying if you had the choice you would of drowned a half starved woman who had been tortured worse than Joel for god knows how long as well as her charge who was done in a similar fashion in front of her. Please think about that.

    The last act of the first game it's the main character killing "inocent" people. If you are looking for characters that have moral actions, you are playing the wrong game, dude.
    It always seems to be harsh world when it's Joel or Ellie doing bad stuff. But not when it's Abby.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    A half-starved woman who in the peak of her health brutally tortured and murdered a man in cold blood after said man saved her from being shredded by zombies.
    And Abby spared Ellie twice she still came back for a third go. It was clear neither one cared about nice gestures from the other side when they were in full kill mode.

    When a man who is a respected and beloved pillar of a community as Joel was (see all the cards and flowers left at his house when Ellie visits) gets killed in the most random and degrading manner possible, and the community is both hampered and threatened by his loss (since losing Joel makes patrol work harder making it harder to bring killers to justice), it's not hard to see the girl who Joel saw as his daughter and automatically wish to support her you know.
    I am aware of why Ellie and her friends were all in. The difference is at least in the end some of Abby's acknowledge what Abby did wasn't what they signed up for. None of Ellie's ever did.

    Here's the info Abby had:
    -- She knew her father was fine with murdering a child for the outside chance of a vaccine.
    -- She knew that Marlene, leader of the Fireflies had moral objections that her father had to talk her out of.
    -- She knew that her father, in Joel's position, would do no different.

    Anyone who knows these things and then does the things that Abby does, is an appalling hypocrite unworthy of revenge or redemption.
    Ellie was more than prepared to kill a child in cold blood at the end(an child that is the only reason her, Dina, and her baby are even alive). The difference is at least with the fireflies it was objectively what Ellie wanted(even if they didn't know that) and it had the potential for some good. Ellie was going to kill a half dead child because she wanted her bloody showdown. Let's not pretend Ellie was any better than Abby's dad at the end.
    Last edited by Farealmer; 06-23-2020 at 07:15 PM.

  8. #53
    Incredible Member Drako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    I said people not you. You aren't the only one I am debating with or the only one taking Ellie's side in this. Ellie who was prepared to kill a child(a child who pleaded for mercy on her and Dina to Abby) to get a death match out of a half dead woman. You have nightwing as an avatar and are saying if you had the choice you would of drowned a half starved woman who had been tortured worse than Joel for god knows how long as well as her charge who was done in a similar fashion in front of her. Please think about that.
    I don't want my Nightwing, Batman or Superman killing people, but those are different works than the Last of Us. I can deal with both being different.

    I said if the game gave me the choice to kill Abby i would, i don't know what you trying to imply here. You didn't kill a single soul in this game?
    I could play a second time, feel different and choose not to kill her, the outcome would also be different. This is a video-game.

    I was actually worried about Lev during my playthrough cause he lost his sister and without Abby he would be alone in that world. From these new characters, he was the only one i actually liked.

    But Owen was the one that actually growed a little bit on me during the Abby part. He was the one not actually consumed by revenge, didn't want to be part of the war (Which Abby was ok until she saw the other side by the way) and had compassion for a Seraphite when no one had before.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post

    I was actually worried about Lev during my playthrough cause he lost his sister and without Abby he would be alone in that world. From these new characters, he was the only one i actually liked.
    What do you think would of happened to Lev had Ellie killed Abby? You think Ellie would of saved him? She would of left him and since he was so weak he couldn't move he'd of died of dehydration alone in that boat. A child that pleaded for Abby to spare Dina and her. Even after he saw what they did to Mel and Owen who saved his sisters life. Lev knew that was wrong. And Ellie was prepared to kill him or if she had killed Abby leave him for dead. That's not something "last of us is a harsh world" gives a pass on. Ellie was not in such a desperate situation that was acceptable in any way.

  10. #55
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    Ellie was more than prepared to kill a child in cold blood at the end(an child that is the only reason her, Dina, and her baby are even alive).
    Lev being the reason Abby spared Dina speaks against Abby rather than in her favor.

    Not to mention that the entire reason Abby's friends died was because of her ill-concieved, hypocritical, and unjust act of retribution.

    (even if they didn't know that)
    Weren't you the ones going on about "judging-characters-on-in-universe-knowledge-and-actions".

    Based on what they had, what they did, the Fireflies actions were unjust. Marlene herself knew this and would never have gone ahead if not for Abby's quack father.

    ...and it had the potential for some good.
    If the vaccine failed, as it would have in all likelihood, then the Fireflies would have to sit back and wait in vain to track another immune person.

    The smart thing to do, if these idiots knew anything about medical science, was to protect Ellie and study her blood and tissue samples. Protect her and do her best to ensure she lives long and healthy. Meanwhile try and see if you can find other immune cases. When Ellie reaches a certain age, ask her to donate eggs, for the possibility of in-vitro fertilization of babies and children who might also be immune. That's how actual scientists would do it. Going "all in" is not how medicine works, especially not medicine in a situation with limited supplies and conditions, and the collapse of the entire academic community and peer-review network.

    Unfortunately they listened to Abby's quack veterinarian dad and decided he was somehow the second coming of Jenner.

    Let's not pretend Ellie was any better than Abby's dad at the end.
    There's no pretense.

    Ellie is absolutely better than Abby, Abby's dad, any WLF, at any and every point of her life. Even in her worst moments.

  11. #56
    Incredible Member Drako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    What do you think would of happened to Lev had Ellie killed Abby? You think Ellie would of saved him? She would of left him and since he was so weak he couldn't move he'd of died of dehydration alone in that boat. A child that pleaded for Abby to spare Dina and her. Even after he saw what they did to Mel and Owen who saved his sisters life. Lev knew that was wrong. And Ellie was prepared to kill him or if she had killed Abby leave him for dead. That's not something "last of us is a harsh world" gives a pass on. Ellie was not in such a desperate situation that was acceptable in any way.
    But none of this happened. Abby got to live another day with Lev. So why are you so worked up about this?

    You fail to understand that i don't find Ellies actions justifiable, nor do i find Joel's actions justifiable in the first. Same goes for Abby. The conversation started about who was the better person. You said that Abby was so much better than Ellie and i don't agree. Both did horrible things. That's all.

    And it just happens that i don't like Abby. Maybe this can change in my next playthrough, who knows, but I probably not going back to this game for some time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Lev being the reason Abby spared Dina speaks against Abby rather than in her favor.

    Not to mention that the entire reason Abby's friends died was because of her ill-concieved, hypocritical, and unjust act of retribution.
    That's as much on Ellie as it was on Abby. The difference is Dina got to keep her life and baby. Mel didn't.


    Weren't you the ones going on about "judging-characters-on-in-universe-knowledge-and-actions".
    Which is why i typed it like i did. I know they didn't know and they don't get the credit for it. But it didn't make it less true.


    If the vaccine failed, as it would have in all likelihood, then the Fireflies would have to sit back and wait in vain to track another immune person.
    No way to know either way. But you can't act like failure was 100% just like I don't act like success was 100%.


    There's no pretense.

    Ellie is absolutely better than Abby, Abby's dad, any WLF, at any and every point of her life. Even in her worst moments.
    Yeah, threatening a half starved child that pleaded for her and Dina's life, what a freaking prince. I guess there is no where else to go if you are that committed to the "Ellie did nothing wrong" school of thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    But none of this happened. Abby got to live another day with Lev. So why are you so worked up about this?
    Look above. You have people saying Ellie is literally better than any WLF when she was planning on killing a child that pleaded for her and Dina's life and literally had not a single thing to do with what happened to Joel. That's what I am worked up about. This undercurrent of "if i like this person they can do no wrong" surrounding Joel and Ellie.
    Last edited by Farealmer; 06-23-2020 at 08:44 PM.

  13. #58
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    That's as much on Ellie as it was on Abby. The difference is Dina got to keep her life and baby. Mel didn't.
    Mel didn't keep her baby because its mother was a phenomenally irresponsible and arrogant woman. She repeatedly went out on patrols despite being late (and Abby herself suggesting she shouldn't be risking herself). Then when she sees Ellie, rather than right away telling her that she's pregnant, and de-escalating when Ellie tells her that she and Owen can survive if they give her Abby...they attack her instead.

    Why? Because they bought into their ideology of WLFs being badasses and so on and ended up dying like the idiots they are.

    But you can't act like failure was 100% just like I don't act like success was 100%.
    It's precisely because of the lack of 100% guarantee that scientists have a thing called the "scientific method". And that's in ordinary circumstances. Definitely not in a situation like a potential vaccine to end the worldwide zombie invasion, where the risk is you kill a child (which in and of itself is a horribly immoral action), and in the process lose a rare example of naturally-occurring immunity.

    That's all-or-nothing kind of thinking, where you risk and stake everything on the hope and prayer of a successful operation, a successful conversion of dead cells into a vaccine that can then be synthesized, mass-produced, and mass-delivered and mass-distributed. As it happens, they never got past Phase 1 (successful operation) because of their criminally unethical actions. In short, since "success wasn't 100%" it's basicaly zero.

    Yeah, threatening a half starved child that pleaded for her and Dina's life, what a freaking prince.
    Read up on history, and find out what actual Kings and Princes did in the good old days.

    I guess there is no where else to go if you are that committed to the "Ellie did nothing wrong" school of thought.
    The school of thought is compared to Abby and the Wolves, Ellie is a better person.

    You have people saying Ellie is literally better than any WLF when she was planning on killing a child that pleaded for her and Dina's life and literally had not a single thing to do with what happened to Joel. That's what I am worked up about.
    Well we are worked up about you whitewashing and glorifying a bunch of unrepentant war criminals like Abby, her vile and evil father, and all these wolves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Mel didn't keep her baby because its mother was a phenomenally irresponsible and arrogant woman. She repeatedly went out on patrols despite being late (and Abby herself suggesting she shouldn't be risking herself). Then when she sees Ellie, rather than right away telling her that she's pregnant, and de-escalating when Ellie tells her that she and Owen can survive if they give her Abby...they attack her instead.

    Why?
    Why? Because they were terrified and had 0 reason to believe they would be spared. They wouldn't try the pregnancy excuse on a scar and they have no reason to believe it would stay Ellie's hand. It's not like that she killed them gave her any real reflection on her behavior. Like a real villain every line she crossed ultimately emboldened her to cross another. If it was someone holding a gun on Ellie and Dina they wouldn't have any reason to believe they'd be spared either. And I am about as sure as I can be about anything in a game that Ellie would try for the gun if she thought she had a chance. And what does that make Dina? She was out there right next to Ellie while she knew she was pregnant and only stopped when she realized she'd be a burden. Mel didn't die on the front lines she died in a vain effort to save herself and her child from a psycho murderer.

    It's precisely because of the lack of 100% guarantee that scientists have a thing called the "scientific method". And that's in ordinary circumstances. Definitely not in a situation like a potential vaccine to end the worldwide zombie invasion, where the risk is you kill a child (which in and of itself is a horribly immoral action), and in the process lose a rare example of naturally-occurring immunity.

    That's all-or-nothing kind of thinking, where you risk and stake everything on the hope and prayer of a successful operation, a successful conversion of dead cells into a vaccine that can then be synthesized, mass-produced, and mass-delivered and mass-distributed. As it happens, they never got past Phase 1 (successful operation) because of their criminally unethical actions. In short, since "success wasn't 100%" it's basicaly zero.
    Like I said impossible to know either way. Going back and forth won't really get us anywhere on this point.

    Read up on history, and find out what actual Kings and Princes did in the good old days.
    I know, she'd make them proud.

    Well we are worked up about you whitewashing and glorifying a bunch of unrepentant war criminals like Abby, her vile and evil father, and all these wolves.
    I am not glorifying any of them. Abby's brutality against Joel very much cost her relationship with Owen and Mel. Abby's father trying to kill Joel got him killed. The wolves bloodlust is why, like the scars, both Ellie and Abby ended up killing them. That doesn't give Joel a pass for the person he was nor Ellie for the person she became. The difference is most of the story didn't glorify them for their choices. As you said Abby's dad was shown as the villain that convince Marlene against her better judgement. Abby's friends all died for her vengence. The wolves and scar damn near wiped each other out and where both stock villains you kill in droves. I know Abby was wrong for going after Joel, it's why Owen didn't like the idea to begin with but did it out of loyalty to her. However Ellie wasn't made to look in the wrong until she left Dina and the baby and not a single person called her out until then. I can flat out say "Abby was wrong!" you don't seem to think Ellie was. Regardless of what she does.
    Last edited by Farealmer; 06-23-2020 at 09:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    Why? Because they were terrified and had 0 reason to believe they would be spared.
    Why did they have 0 reason to believe they would be spared? Ellie didn't shoot and kill them right away like how Abby shot Jesse. IF she wanted to kill them she would have done so from the start.

    They wouldn't try the pregnancy excuse on a scar and they have no reason to believe it would stay Ellie's hand. It's not like that she killed them gave her any real reflection on her behavior.
    Except the lengthy cutscenes and immediate interventions from her friends.

    Like I said impossible to know either way. Going back and forth won't really get us anywhere on this point.
    Actual scientific procedures clearly declare that the conduct of Abby's evil father was evil. There's no going back and forth on this. That's what it is.

    I am not glorifying any of them.
    You are. You whitewash all of Abby's actions and demonize Ellie's.

    As you said Abby's dad was shown as the villain that convince Marlene against her better judgement. Abby's friends all died for her vengence.
    The point is that Abby never once accepts, apologizes, or learns to regret her father's actions. Neither do any of her friends. It's impossible to accept a group of war criminals who sadistically torture and murder a person as justified when their entire history is factored in.

    They do not deserve their revenge. They do not deserve redemption.

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