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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Why did they have 0 reason to believe they would be spared? Ellie didn't shoot and kill them right away like how Abby shot Jesse. IF she wanted to kill them she would have done so from the start.
    She needed info and she said as much. Needing info didn't stop Tommy from ultimately killing the dudes he used the play against ploy with. And they knew her from Jackson. They had no reason to believe someone who came this far for revenge was going to leave survivors.

    Except the lengthy cutscenes and immediate interventions from her friends.
    That's not true reflection, she didn't deescalate or show any long term regret for anything she did.

    Actual scientific procedures clearly declare that the conduct of Abby's evil father was evil. There's no going back and forth on this. That's what it is.
    I didn't realize you were an expert on zombie fungus. But ok.

    The point is that Abby never once accepts, apologizes, or learns to regret her father's actions.
    That had nothing to do with anything. Joel was a bad guy for most of his post apoc life before he met Ellie. She doesn't apologize for him either. Even when she believed by her very statements in game that she considered him wrong for talking her from the fireflies she never apologized for what he did. Abby and Ellie both took after their fathers. The difference is Abby in the end prioritized Lev over getting even with Ellie. Ellie didn't prioritize Dina and her baby over getting even with Abby.

    They do not deserve their revenge. They do not deserve redemption.
    Neither did Joel and not because of the fireflies. Because of who he was between Sarah and Ellie. Him getting a new daughter and finding himself doesn't change who he was. Neither does it change Ellie for who she became.
    Last edited by Farealmer; 06-24-2020 at 11:35 AM.

  2. #62
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    She needed info and she said as much. Needing info didn't stop Tommy from ultimately killing the dudes he used the play against ploy with.
    Neither Mel nor Owen knew about Tommy and Ellie coming after them. The deaths of their squadmates were unknown to them. So based on your own criteria of "what only characters know" that doesn't work.

    And if Ellie needed information, that's more reason for her to keep them alive.

    That's not true reflection, she didn't deescalate or show any long term regret for anything she did.
    She spent a year or so retired and out of action raising a child and only came back because of long term trauma caused by Abby's actions.

    I didn't realize you were an expert on zombie fungus.
    You don't have to be. Basic layman's knowledge of epidemiology and the way vaccines were done are enough. The way vaccines work is that it draws from the immunity a body develops against one strain of the virus. So, you would need to culture the virus in a lab...which it seems Abby's idiot Dad hadn't done...and then develop a treatment by which the weaker strain of the virus can then be injected into people and their body's immune system defeats that virus and gains immunity from all viruses of that kind. Ellie developed naturally occuring immunity, so that means she has strong antibodies, which can only be generated from a living body. Actually cutting open and killing her will destroy the source of all that. The better way is to take those antibodies and see if it works against a cultured lab strain of the virus in the lab.

    That had nothing to do with anything.
    Yes it does. Per your "what the characters only know" criteria, it does.

    Joel was a bad guy for most of his post apoc life before he met Ellie.
    Abby and others didn't know that at all. So it's irrelevant.

    Judging Abby's actions in context, based on what she knows, her actions are evil and unjustifiable. After her father's death,
    -- She became a full time war criminal for a warlord (Isaac at WLF).
    -- She killed many Seraphites and scars, torturing several of them, most likely people like Lev and Yara.
    -- She tortured and brutally murdered Joel after he saved her from zombie infectees.
    -- She seduces and sleeps with her former boyfriend Owen despite knowing he's a father to their mutual friend Mel's child.
    -- She plots defection and treachery against the WLF.
    -- She murders Jesse, someone she didn't know or meet before in cold blood without warning.

    Her only kind thing is helping Lev but that's the only kind thing she does in a sea of terrible actions.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Neither Mel nor Owen knew about Tommy and Ellie coming after them. The deaths of their squadmates were unknown to them. So based on your own criteria of "what only characters know" that doesn't work.

    And if Ellie needed information, that's more reason for her to keep them alive.
    Until she got it...

    She spent a year or so retired and out of action raising a child and only came back because of long term trauma caused by Abby's actions.
    No, she did because Tommy guilt tripped her into it because he couldn't go himself. That BS is likely why Maria wanted time apart from him.

    You don't have to be. Basic layman's knowledge of epidemiology and the way vaccines were done are enough. The way vaccines work is that it draws from the immunity a body develops against one strain of the virus. So, you would need to culture the virus in a lab...which it seems Abby's idiot Dad hadn't done...and then develop a treatment by which the weaker strain of the virus can then be injected into people and their body's immune system defeats that virus and gains immunity from all viruses of that kind. Ellie developed naturally occuring immunity, so that means she has strong antibodies, which can only be generated from a living body. Actually cutting open and killing her will destroy the source of all that. The better way is to take those antibodies and see if it works against a cultured lab strain of the virus in the lab.
    Well, barring a zombie plague we'll never truly know.

    Yes it does. Per your "what the characters only know" criteria, it does.
    I am not sure how.



    Abby and others didn't know that at all. So it's irrelevant.
    Come on now she knew enough about Joel because of the info she got from talking to people that knew Tommy. IIRC Marlene wasn't oblivious to who Joel was and Abby at least talked with her. But I admit I don't know 100% that she knew. Even though Joel had enough of a rep that it was a plot point in the first game.

    -- She plots defection and treachery against the WLF.
    -- She murders Jesse, someone she didn't know or meet before in cold blood without warning.
    Really dude. What happened? When you made your first post it was such a balanced view of this game. And every post since has been harsher and harsher. These two points are showing that your hate of Abby is outright fanatical. Jesse was clearly with Tommy who she knows tried to kill her. You think if Ellie was struggling with Abby and someone ran in to help Abby, Ellie wouldn't take a shot at them? Abby and Lev were out in the open and had if she hadn't fired then and there would of been gunned down along with Lev. Yes she plotted to leave WLF because she loved Owen and wasn't about to see him dead for an act of mercy. You think if for whatever reason Joel ever fell out with Jackson, Ellie wouldn't be on Joel's side?


    I find it interesting you think Daud the Assassin is a good redemption story but that Abby needs to take heat regardless of what she does.
    Last edited by Farealmer; 06-23-2020 at 10:48 PM.

  4. #64
    Incredible Member the nomad's Avatar
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    Finished the game and man. I've got mixed feelings about it. I'm not sure if it's a 10/10 but I'm sure that it's definitely not a 0 or 1 out of 10, like I've seen on a few sites.

    A classic tale of two sides of the same coin. And of course one side being Ellie and the other being Abby. Both traveling on the same path of vengeance that ultimately leads to the same realization, that if you pursue it, in the end all you're left with is agony and suffering.

    For the creative direction that Neil and Haley wanted to go I can understand Abby's reasons for executing Joel. He was the boogieman in her dreams, the reason why she couldn't sleep at night. The same PTSD Ellie had is what she was going through but even though she accomplished her goal she was not expecting the consequences of her actions. And not just from Ellie but the Karma for killing another human being the way that she did. Just like Joel's Karma finally caught up to him. She killed her boogieman and as a consequence of that she lost the love of her life, her best friend, her dog, her position in the WLF and was tortured for months.

    And while Abby was going through her Karma trials, Ellie was learning the price of Vengeance and that price is everything. She lost Jesse, Dina and the baby, two fingers, and the last piece of Joel which was the guitar. In this instance the price is not worth it.

    Anyway, I understood the message of hate and violence and the never ending cycle, and the need to break it. NOt sure I agree with it but I got it. It wasn't what I was expecting for a sequel and I'm not sure just yet if it's something I wanted. Most of the games I play I can replay them but this game is so depressing that I really don't have a desire to replay it. I know it has collectibles and what not but I'm not sure I even care about it enough to re-enter this bleak world.

  5. #65
    Incredible Member Drako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the nomad View Post
    Anyway, I understood the message of hate and violence and the never ending cycle, and the need to break it. NOt sure I agree with it but I got it. It wasn't what I was expecting for a sequel and I'm not sure just yet if it's something I wanted. Most of the games I play I can replay them but this game is so depressing that I really don't have a desire to replay it. I know it has collectibles and what not but I'm not sure I even care about it enough to re-enter this bleak world.
    Same here. I don't have any intentions to go back to this game for a long time cause is very depressing. I was kinda down for like two days every time i remembered the game. I usually like to complete all the Naughty Dog games, but this one i think i going to pass. And this one is kinda easy to get all the trophys.

    I also can take "Future Days" by Pearl Jam of my head and it doesn't makes me feel that good. At least its a great song.

  6. #66
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    Same here. I don't have any intentions to go back to this game for a long time cause is very depressing. I was kinda down for like two days every time i remembered the game. I usually like to complete all the Naughty Dog games, but this one i think i going to pass. And this one is kinda easy to get all the trophys.
    To be honest, why are there trophies in the game?

    It was quite jarring that after Joel died and Ellie grieves, when we enter Seattle she is still happy and cheerful about collecting playcards and reacts as if nothing happened.

    That's a good example of that old time "ludonarrative dissonance".

    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    No, she did because Tommy guilt tripped her into it because he couldn't go himself.
    Great that you are finally collecting details from Ellie's side of story because you didn't do that until now.

    Well, barring a zombie plague we'll never truly know.
    The process of Epidemiology and Vaccination and how to go about it would be the same no matter what the disease and outbreak. Right now, in the real world pandemic, there are people who have developed immunity to Covid-19, but nobody is going around cutting them open and killing them to create insta-vaccines even if several pharmas and governments are trying to get it out soon.

    The ending of The Last of Us didn't make sense in setup (i.e. why Ellie had to die for vaccine) but emotionally it worked as a climax to Joel and Ellie's story. So the lack of realism about vaccination didn't matter. And the emotion of uncertainty and sadness at the end of that worked. However, the minute you bring a point of view that's not Joel and Ellie into the mix, then the entire thing falls apart. Because now you are inviting audiences to buy, readily and uncritically, your dopey setup not from the emotional perspective of the protagonists but as an aspect of world-building and so on...and they needed to present something else than what they did in the first game. Doubling down on the "cutting upon child to find vaccine" was a poor storytelling choice to cultivate sympathy for Abby and her father. Joel's actions at the end of TLoU was meant to be ambiguous. It was meant to make you uncomfortable and uncertain. If you present it as this game does, that it was evil, then that's not ambiguous at all. That's going in the absolute other direction.

    Really dude. What happened? When you made your first post it was such a balanced view of this game.
    Abby isn't the game. The first sections of TLoU-2 everything about the interactions with Ellie and Dina were fine but the game goes off the rails with that flashback to Abby's POV at the end of the first game. The minute that flashback hit, I was just amazed at how stupid a decision this was.

    Jesse was clearly with Tommy who she knows tried to kill her.
    She didn't see Jesse in her playable sections when she was dodging Tommy's sniper bullets. So no she doesn't know. It would have made sense for her to kill Tommy right away admittedly.

    I find it interesting you think Daud the Assassin is a good redemption story but that Abby needs to take heat regardless of what she does.
    It's because of how it's presented/framed. And of course Dishonored and its sequels repeated that with Billie Lurk, someone who betrays Daud but who he forgives in turn and she becomes a major character in the final entries, playable in the final standalone expansion. My point was that TLoU-2 wasn't doing anything new when it decided to try and put you in the shoes of the other side, and making you redeem and absolve a guy who killed a character the protagonist loved and wants revenge for. It's not a bad idea, and it can be done well and work. It's just that they failed to execute it properly.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    Same here. I don't have any intentions to go back to this game for a long time cause is very depressing. I was kinda down for like two days every time i remembered the game. I usually like to complete all the Naughty Dog games, but this one i think i going to pass. And this one is kinda easy to get all the trophys.

    I also can take "Future Days" by Pearl Jam of my head and it doesn't makes me feel that good. At least its a great song.
    Right, and its not that its a bad game. Mechanically its top tier and certainly well crafted. And the story certainly made me feel things. It was compelling, and emotionally complex. Just at the same time not satisfying. It never gave me satisfaction or closure to any of the emotions it evoked. We had two sides, but both sides screamed the same thing. So by the end of it i was just done, and had no desire to go back and do any of it again. It was so bitter. Its a game i will never forget, but also one i don't see me playing again any time soon. I actually think im gonna play some Uncharted maybe even, i don't know.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 06-24-2020 at 09:51 AM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Great that you are finally collecting details from Ellie's side of story because you didn't do that until now.
    I was always aware Ellie wasn't a total fault for her actions. Tommy leaving on his own stole any chance of Maria letting cooler heads prevail. Because they then had to go as much to help Tommy as get Abby. Dina could of turned her back earlier with news of her pregnancy. She choose not too because she valued her baby less than helping Ellie. Any of them could of called her out on how she was behaving yet no one did. Even when revenge was taking her away from Tommy and Jesse wanted to go help him they split but she never really got called out for prioritizing revenge over Tommy. Then Tommy comes and give her a crusade at the end without a single shit given about what it did to her life with Dina. Because the dialog with him makes it clear he valued it over his life with Maria. If any of her friends had stood up to her or stopped enabling her rampage like Abby's, Ellie might not of lost everything by the end. But regardless it was Ellie's choice to keep pushing forward.

  9. #69
    Incredible Member the nomad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Right, and its not that its a bad game. Mechanically its top tier and certainly well crafted. And the story certainly made me feel things. It was compelling, and emotionally complex. Just at the same time not satisfying. It never gave me satisfaction or closure to any of the emotions it evoked. We had two sides, but both sides screamed the same thing. So by the end of it i was just done, and had no desire to go back and do any of it again. It was so bitter. Its a game i will never forget, but also one i don't see me playing again any time soon. I actually think im gonna play some Uncharted maybe even, i don't know.

    I feel that too. It was just such a downer ending and game. And one I won't forget but at the same time, I will not be playing again maybe for a long time or maybe ever. I thought about the first last of us, and while Joel's choice at the end was completely savage and morally gray at least I walked away with some semblance of peace. This one I don't really feel anything other than depression. LOL I think I might just play either Spider-Man or MK11 for the next couple of days just to bring a smile to my face

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by the nomad View Post
    I feel that too. It was just such a downer ending and game. And one I won't forget but at the same time, I will not be playing again maybe for a long time or maybe ever. I thought about the first last of us, and while Joel's choice at the end was completely savage and morally gray at least I walked away with some semblance of peace. This one I don't really feel anything other than depression. LOL I think I might just play either Spider-Man or MK11 for the next couple of days just to bring a smile to my face
    Ya, with the first game while with the ending he might have been wrong, at the same time there was a warped sense of satisfaction in it. Were with this one i feel like this is what it would have felt like if he did let her die.

  11. #71
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    For now I'll just pass through and say I don't think Abby is a sociopath but the writing ain't doing her any favours.

    Yeah, she let Ellie and Tommy go after killing Joel but that was only after her boyfriend brought up the idea and the others were gonna turn on him.
    Her friends got killed because of her plan to kill an old dude so to avenge them she journeys with her ward to Ellie's hideout to get revenge? She's lucky there were only 4 people chilling in a movie theatre.
    She legit only stopped killing Dina because a child was present.

    Thanks, Neil. Stop trying to be Kojima.
    "Cable was right!"

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    For now I'll just pass through and say I don't think Abby is a sociopath but the writing ain't doing her any favours.

    Yeah, she let Ellie and Tommy go after killing Joel but that was only after her boyfriend brought up the idea and the others were gonna turn on him.
    Her friends got killed because of her plan to kill an old dude so to avenge them she journeys with her ward to Ellie's hideout to get revenge? She's lucky there were only 4 people chilling in a movie theatre.
    She legit only stopped killing Dina because a child was present.
    Yeah, she deserves some flak for bringing Lev to the place as well. The only saving grace on that is she thought it was just one dude that once they got the drop on it would be over. She didn't expect 3 other people.

  13. #73
    King of Wakanda Midvillian1322's Avatar
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    So not reading above posts to avoid spoilers. Just had time to get past the shocking death early in the game. Its pretty brutal but is that why people are upset with the brutality in this game or does it just get worse from here on out?

  14. #74
    Incredible Member the nomad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midvillian1322 View Post
    So not reading above posts to avoid spoilers. Just had time to get past the shocking death early in the game. Its pretty brutal but is that why people are upset with the brutality in this game or does it just get worse from here on out?
    Nah, it's not the brutality. It's A. The Way the shocking death went down. B. Second half of the game you play as the character that killed the other character. C. The Ending.

    There maybe other issues but I believe those to be the top three. But really it all boils down to you the player if you can accept the other character and her reasoning for why she did what she did.

  15. #75
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midvillian1322 View Post
    So not reading above posts to avoid spoilers. Just had time to get past the shocking death early in the game. Its pretty brutal but is that why people are upset with the brutality in this game or does it just get worse from here on out?
    The game had a unlikable sociopath kill Joel through dumb luck after he had saved her life. The game makes you play as said sociopath for half the game while remaining unlikable and try to drum up sympathy for her and her dad. Her cast of characters ain't great neither.

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